Powerful build - weapon size?


Advice and Rules Questions


The powerful build states that you can use weapons one size larger than normal.
Does that mean that a medium sized human with powerful build can use both medium sized and large sized weapons without penalties? Or does he now have to use large sized weapons?

And if I have a weapon that is light for a large sized creature and one-handed for a medium sized creature, can I choose whether to use it as a light or one-handed weapon?

Example:
A human aberrant aegis with powerful build dual-wields large aklys. As he can use large sized weapons he gets the lesser TWF penalties. When encountering something with DR, can he use a single of his aklys in two hands as a one-handed weapon (medium) to get 1-1/2 strength damage, ignoring powerful build?

Powerful build:
Powerful Build
The aegis gains the powerful build trait while wearing his astral suit. Whenever the aegis is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for a Combat Maneuver Bonus or Combat Maneuver Defense (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the aegis is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. The aegis is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as grab or swallow whole) can affect him. The aegis can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.


Your aegis is treated as large for weapon size purposes, so he'll use large weapons normally, and medium weapons will be considered to be on size smaller.

So, you'll take -2 when wielding medium weapons, and light medium weapons will be too small for you to wield. One handed medium weapons will be considered to be appropriately sized light weapons.

No, you won't gain any benefit from using the Aklys in two hands.

Quote:


Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.

Because you are considered to be large, thus allowing the dual wielding of large light weapons, you are also considered large when trying to wield a large light weapon in two hands.


Quote:
The aegis can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty.

Emphasis mine. The key word here is "can", indicating the Aegis chooses whether to use this ability or not and can treat himself as either medium or large for the purpose of wielding weapons, whichever is more favorable. It's a very powerful ability.

So if the Aegis chooses to treat himself as a large creature, the Large Aklys is effectively a light weapon for him along with the reduced TWF penalties. If the Aegis chooses to treat himself as a medium creature, the Large Aklys is an inappropriately-sized medium weapon, meaning he could wield it in two hands for 1-1/2 strength bonus but takes the -2 attack penalty for an inappropriately-sized weapon.


The grammatical use of can does not indicate an option. It indicates an ability which replaces his normal ability to wield medium weapons as a medium creature.

In other words, he is considered to be large when it comes to the rules pertaining to appropriately sized weapons.


Quintain wrote:

The grammatical use of can does not indicate an option. It indicates an ability which replaces his normal ability to wield medium weapons as a medium creature.

If that why use the word can? And why state that he does so without penalty? If he has to use weapons one size larger those would be normal for him.

As written it sounds like an option he has.

But still not totally sure.


Quintain wrote:
Your aegis is treated as large for weapon size purposes, so he'll use large weapons normally, and medium weapons will be considered to be on size smaller.

False. Read the ability and you'll see it states that you wield weapons designed for creatures one size larger, not that you treat yourself one size larger. Its only effect is that, for example, a Medium creature could wield a Large weapon and suffers neither attack penalty nor change in handedness. But he wouldn't treat Medium weapons as too small now, he can still wield Medium weapons normally and still treats Small weapons as one size smaller. For that matter, he still treats Huge weapons as two sizes too big, so while he can wield both Medium and Large weapons as if they were appropriately sized for him, he "jumps" two size categories worth of penalties if he goes from a Large weapon to a Huge weapon.

Furthermore, "Can" is grammatically important. Take, for instance, Pounce.

PRD wrote:
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Would you say that a creature with Pounce must make a full-attack on every single charge? Does it have absolutely no option to make a normal, single attack? Of course not. There are many instances of using the term "can" in the rules. It is always optional. This is an optional part of the rule to toggle as the player sees fit. So you can wield the weapon without penalty... or you can just wield it normally with penalty.


Just a Guess wrote:
Quintain wrote:

The grammatical use of can does not indicate an option. It indicates an ability which replaces his normal ability to wield medium weapons as a medium creature.

If that why use the word can? And why state that he does so without penalty? If he has to use weapons one size larger those would be normal for him.

As written it sounds like an option he has.

But still not totally sure.

Because the word can is appropriate.

"Teacher, can I go to the bathroom"

"I don't know, can you?"

Can indicates ability in this grammatical context. Just like the annoying teacher lesson above.

It states that he does so without penalty because the normal rules for a creature (in this case the assumption is a medium creature) to use a weapon that is one size larger is that they take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

So, the ability allows for use of a large size weapon as if it were an "appropriately sized weapon"...with the consequence of that change being that medium sized weapons are no longer "appropriately sized".

The reason that this part of the rule (the statements regarding weapons) is, imo, very strict, is that the rules for CMD/CMB indicate that they only apply when there are advantages to being large, for those specific rules.

The same cannot be said about the use of weapons (no phrase stating anything about "also" or "being able to use large weapons without penalty alongside being able to use medium weapons as normal", etc.

Now, you given that this is 3pp, you can interpret it any way you want, but allowing for a blanket "I'm large when I want to be" rule on all things makes Powerful Build much more powerful than it otherwise would be at first glance.

But that is often how it is played.

Quote:


Read the ability and you'll see it states that you wield weapons designed for creatures one size larger, not that you treat yourself one size larger.

You are trying to make a distinction without a difference. You are treated as one size larger when you wield weapons...which allows you to use large weapons as "appropriately sized" ...aka without penalty. These are simply rephrasing of the same thing.

See my explanation above regarding why I interpret this ability this way...there are inclusionary rules for CMD/CMB, but what is not included in the rules for CMD/CMB is the statements for weapons.

Quote:


Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Quote:


Would you say that a creature with Pounce must make a full-attack on every single charge? Does it have absolutely no option to make a normal, single attack? Of course not. There are many instances of using the term "can" in the rules. It is always optional. This is an optional part of the rule to toggle as the player sees fit. So you can wield the weapon without penalty... or you can just wield it normally with penalty.

Charge is a full-attack (or rather a full round action) that normally allows a single attack at the end of the movement portion of the full round action. The only thing that pounce does is remove the restriction of the single attack, allowing for multiple iterative attacks, if you have them.

Does the charging individual have the "option" of not using pounce, yes...but that is because you can charge without using pounce, not because pounce allows for a single attack. You either use pounce or you do not. The option is in the action being used, not what benefit pounce allows.

Even in this context, "can" is an indicator of the ability to do something that is separate from the default.

You may find other uses of the word can that indicate an option in the rules..it is a proper use of the word can to indicate it, after all. Pounce, however, isn't one of them.

Most uses of the word can in exclusionary rulesets such as those of 3+ D&D and Pathfinder indicate an ability that is separate from the default. When used expressly as an option, usually the other options are given at the same time.

But, like I said: The powerful build ability of the aegis (and half-giant) is very powerful even with my interpretation of large weapons only. Many people do allow the aegis and half-giant the use of medium weapons as well...but given the scenario in the OP, it seems to be a much more powerful and versatile interpretation.

Play as you like. Either one works.


Addendum to the above -- if you look at the 3.5 version of the Powerful build ability (adding in a historical perspective):

Quote:


Benefit: Your physical stature lets you function in many ways as if you were one size category larger. Whenever you are subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), you are treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to you. You are also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect you. You can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature of your actual size. The benefits of this feat stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
Special: A Fighter may select this as one of his bonus feats. This feat must be taken at 1st level.

The first sentence lends credence to the "you are considered to be size large" interpretation, imo.

But either way, play it how you like.

Liberty's Edge

I interpret the "use larger weapons without penalty" bit as saying that you don't take the -2 inappropriate size penalty, not that they get wield large weapons without change in handedness. This means that using a large-sized bastard sword in two hands would still require exotic proficiency, but you don't *also* take a -2 to attack rolls with it when doing so. Still nice for a vital strike build, but not super powerful.


How about natural attacks and powerful build? Do they deal damage as normal or as one size larger?


StabbittyDoom wrote:
I interpret the "use larger weapons without penalty" bit as saying that you don't take the -2 inappropriate size penalty, not that they get wield large weapons without change in handedness. This means that using a large-sized bastard sword in two hands would still require exotic proficiency, but you don't *also* take a -2 to attack rolls with it when doing so. Still nice for a vital strike build, but not super powerful.

That is an incorrect interpretation. Just reference the Redcap for clarification. It is a small creature, but wields a medium scythe because of its Heavy Weapons ability. If it says "without penalty", that includes the penalty of handedness change. By contrast, Titan Mauler's Massive weapons specifically calls out "attack penalty so that is all that's affected.


Just a Guess wrote:
How about natural attacks and powerful build? Do they deal damage as normal or as one size larger?

That would be a no, it doesn't make you bigger. You would pretty much be limited to manufactured weapons of larger than your size.

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