PFS Alchemist and Alchemy Crafting

[Ryzoken]

N N 959 wrote:

I'm actually just matching the tone that seems to have been directed against me when I disagreed with those here: Let's look at the inflammatory and baiting remarks by others.

kinevon wrote:

So far, you seem to be the only person who has a problem understanding that the rules work as written

Jeff Merola wrote:

If by "everyone" you mean "N N 959" then yes, you are correct.
---
I'm confused at how it's "100% clear" when you're the only one in this that's arguing that it doesn't work.

Nefreet wrote:

This really isn't unclear, and I suggest you reconsider your position.

Ascalaphus wrote:

Also, none of the things you mentioned is actually a feat.

Completely irrelevant to the discussion.

My initial question and response that this should not work was neither inflammatory not directed at any individual. Nor was I trying to dictate to others, but simply expressing how I would rule. I'd much rather a good faith friendly discussion, but I have no problem fighting fire with fire. If others want to leave out the snide comments and innuendos, I'm happy to discuss it. Otherwise, I leave everyone to their own judgment.

Those posts questioned your understanding of the issue, and urged you to reconsider your stance. Your post attacked the character of those who oppose you. Do you see how the two are different?

The issue we have with how you would rule the issue, aside from how you've chosen to express your argument, is that you intend to rule this way in organized play. This causes an issue, because it is possible that a player could show up to your table with something the overwhelming majority of the OP Campaign has no trouble allowing, only to be denied. This creates conflict and a negative play experience.

As far as Dye Arrows and Explosive Missile in combination: Explosive Missile checks for three conditions when used:
The item must be a piece of ammunition (non two handed firearm)
You must be proficient in the weapon you're using
The projectile must hit its target.
If all three are satisfied, Explosive Missile delivers its payload in addition to the ammunition's payload. In the case of a Dye Arrow, the payload is not damage, but dye.
This is simple, logical, and clear.

[ARGH!]

There is some precedent on N N 959's side because of the FAQ saying that rider effects do not trigger if the attack does no damage, but I am not entirely certain that in this case this counts as a rider effect. I am not sure which interpretation to side with for this.

[N N 959]

Those remarks were intended to bait, flame, and discredit the target on a personal level. You view them differently, that is your prerogative. I question the integrity of anyone who says dye arrow and Explosive Missile is not an exploit.

One of the lead designers of Pathfinder disagrees that it is clear. Per the PFS guide, I am empowered to adjudicate things that are not clear. You run your table how you see fit.

[kinevon]

N N 959 wrote:

Those remarks were intended to bait, flame, and discredit the target on a personal level. You view them differently, that is your prerogative. I question the integrity of anyone who says dye arrow and Explosive Missile is not an exploit.

One of the lead designers of Pathfinder disagrees that it is clear. Per the PFS guide, I am empowered to adjudicate things that are not clear. You run your table how you see fit.

Mine was not an attack on you, if you so interpreted it, I apologize. My comment, as mentioned, was an attempt to make sure you understand that rules in PFS are run as written, not as the GM prefers. That second is what happens in home games, not PFS games.

As to your comments that it is an exploit, maybe. Would a ranged touch attack that does other kinds of damage, instead of hit point damage, still deliver the EM attack?

Actually, the one you should worry about, and probably needs an answer, is EM with a splintershot arrow. Does the EM affect the area covered by the splinter affect of the arrow, or just the initial target? Note that since the splintershot arrow now has to hit, and does normal damage first, before the area effect is triggered, does the EM "rider" affect the target of the arrow, or tthe area affected by the splinters?

Or is the question more, "Is turning someone blue/yellow/red actually damaging to them?" I know that there are a couple of scenarios where if someone gets affected by a trap, and turned blue, it is noted down by the NPCs...

[Sebastian Hirsch]

N N 959 wrote:

Those remarks were intended to bait, flame, and discredit the target on a personal level. You view them differently, that is your prerogative. I question the integrity of anyone who says dye arrow and Explosive Missile is not an exploit.

One of the lead designers of Pathfinder disagrees that it is clear. Per the PFS guide, I am empowered to adjudicate things that are not clear. You run your table how you see fit.

A: How often is the increased range really that much of an advantage in PFS, considering that most if not all combats fit on a flip mat?

B: The grenadier Archetype gets martial weapon proficiency, so you could argue, that he is supposed to use a ranged weapon like a longbow.

C: A grenadier could already infuse a alchemists fire into a tanglefoot bag and throw it, the difference between doing this and him using a tangleshot arrow is a -1 to the attack roll.

I admit that one could argue about the damage dealing rider effects, but the other use seem really clear cut.

Since am currently playing a hunter I quite often have to choice between shooting a regular arrow, and shooting a tangleshot arrow (even considering that I usually try to enter combat with gravity bow/[i], that I do shoot a fair number of them).

My newest character (a hunter/magus with the Myrmidarch archetype) can use

Ranged Spellstrike wrote:

t 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack. Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack. At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost.

This ability replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.

with

TANGLESHOT ARROW wrote:

20 GP

This arrow is tipped with a tiny vial of tanglefoot goo. Firing
a tangleshot arrow is a ranged touch attack; the arrow deals
no damage when it hits, but the target is splashed with the
alchemical adhesive. This effect is similar to that of a tanglefoot
bag, but with the following adjustments: Reflex DC 10, Strength
DC 12 to break, 10 points of slashing damage to cut through,
concentration DC 10 to cast spells. A tangleshot arrow imposes
a –1 penalty on attack rolls because of its weight.
ALCHEMICAL RECIPE
Recipe (18 myrrh + 26 urea)/congelation; Craft DC 25
Time 10 minutes; Tools alchemist’s lab; Type alchemical weapon

So the very same question will hit me too, when my am using a +1 flaming bow, will it still deal fire damage? When I am using ranged spell strike to deliver something like [i]Ray of Enfeeblement it should work, since that particular spell only delivers a penalty.

EDIT: This also means, that I can't use rapid shot with it, until I can use quicken spell.

[BigNorseWolf]

How about if you hit touch AC the dye goes off but if you hit real ac the dye goes off AND he gets impaled?

[Sebastian Hirsch]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

How about if you hit touch AC the dye goes off but if you hit real ac the dye goes off AND he gets impaled?

Well most of the kinetic energy is absorbed by vial of tangleshot goo, so there isn't really enough kinetic energy left to deal damage with a wodden arrow (without an arrowhead).

Other alchemical arrows do damage and have an effect, but their description is a little bit different.

[plaidwandering]

Changing it does normal damage to it requires normal damage is a bit more than an interpretation.

this is not something that would occur to anyone giving it a standard English reading

personal bias should be left at the door when it comes to these things for organized play

[BigNorseWolf]

Organized play or no, you're not adding +16 to hit with an arrow for 5 gp a shot.

[Dhjika]

ARGH! wrote:

There is some precedent on N N 959's side because of the FAQ saying that rider effects do not trigger if the attack does no damage, but I am not entirely certain that in this case this counts as a rider effect. I am not sure which interpretation to side with for this.

i think EM is very much a rider effect.

[plaidwandering]

That clause is for damage that gets reduced to zero. This doesn't do damage to begin with.

[plaidwandering]

Quote:

you're not adding +16 to hit with an arrow for 5 gp a shot

that is an absurd misstatement of what it does

basically stuff that already hits touch AC, hits it at a range that is largely irrelevant in PFS

[BigNorseWolf]

plaidwandering wrote:

Quote:

you're not adding +16 to hit with an arrow for 5 gp a shot

that is an absurd misstatement of what it does

How? Whats the difference if that's the practical effect.

[Runt_]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Organized play or no, you're not adding +16 to hit with an arrow for 5 gp a shot.

While not the reason that I didn't use the logic of 'if it hits.. explosive missile detonates', I have to admit I've never had to shoot further out of combat than medium.. and between my trait, PB Shot/Precise, and the fact that I have wings and get get above most of my crew, I've never needed to do more than one shot a round.

So at 8th level, if I need more than +14 to hit, I can always pop a true shot extract. Of course if I need to do more than one shot a round..we're in trouble anyway.

I've put many, many a durable arrow in foes all over. From Bonekeep (1 & 2) and beyond. One shot at a time. I haven't seen a need for rapid/manyshot or deadly aim. Even with just a 'mundane arrow' backed by up to a 28 or so Strength (and large arrows) I hit pretty well.

So yeah.. I COULD argue about touch arrows (mainly for tanglefoot bombs and distance flyers) but I've sucked up the range penalty and still hurt the bad guys (Giant Fiendish Wasp + Arrow/Tanglefoot Bomb + 300+ ft drop.. yeah.. good times)

[Joesi]

I don't consider the dye arrow combo to be overpowered, since how often do you bother to use so much range in games?(maybe the ones I play are exceptional in that regard?) Usually splash weapon mastery is all one needs to hit reliably from long distances in normal style combat.

So aside from the fact that it's just saving maybe 1-4 to attack penalty, it is not possible to use during a full attack, making it only particularly useful at the lower levels when that isn't an option (only especially useful between levels 4 and 8).

That said, I agree that there is no logic whatsoever behind explosive missile/alchemical weapon working against touch AC on dye arrows but not other arrows. Whether it's imbalanced or not (I'd say it's not at all), it's nonsensical.
I'd either have it work as touch AC against any target (which would be quite clearly against the intentions of both the discovery and the trait), or else not have dye arrows work any differently than normal arrows for the purposes of applying those bonus effects (which makes the most sense).

Alchemical weapon and explosive missile enchant/supernaturally infuse the ammunition with it's special effect (at least that's what it seems to be implying). Because of this, it makes sense that the arrow would have to penetrate into the target for it to apply it's effect, rather than just exploding on contact as if the bomb was taped to the ammunition.

[Runt_]

I don't either.. given you don't get a LOT of crit damage out of a bomb and nothing out infused alchemical weapons...

But then I've had a guy tell me that my doing 40 points of damage in a single shot with my gunslinger/alchemist is far more game breaking than the half-orc in purple roid rage paints SPLATTERING two guy in the same round for over 180.