Style v Substance


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hello all, I'm here to discuss something that always plagues my choice making capabilities. That matter is, does one go for style? or for power?

The Discussion: If there was a noticeable disparity between characters you wanted to play, one being more powerful and the other more flavorful / unique / stylish, solid, yet not as powerful as the other, which would you choose and why?

Note: This isn't about liking or disliking other classes nor is it an attack on any of them. I know that full casters are almost always more powerful than everything else, but when does style, character and flavor win out?


When the Style factor is very high, and the mechanics are workable, Style often wins with me.

However it is often the case that Style is paired with crappy mechanics (a build specializing in Disarm and Dirty Trick for example is very flashy, but barely useful), so Power then wins out (though it must have a modicum of Style as well).


I don't think this is a question we can answer for you. Which one will you have more fun playing?

If you're playing at a table with a bunch of twinked-out munchkings and the game master is setting challenges appropriately for that group, you may find yourself struggling to contribute, feeling useless, and catching a lot of criticism from your fellow players for not being able to pull your weight. If this sounds like fun to you, go for it -- otherwise, don't.

Similarly, if you're playing with a bunch of frustrated method actors who view these sessions primarily as a way to practice their various accents, you may find them holding you in contempt because your wizard is dull and flavorless. If this sounds like fun to you, go for it -- otherwise, don't.

I've played with both types of tables and had fun at both types of tables. (Although I admit that the time my method actors spent literally four hours of table time to buy a hat was a little bit precious, and I didn't enjoy that particular session.) But if you're playing with a group that's willing to take an entire session to make sure they're dressed appropriately for the dungeon, you might want to play a character with strong opinions on fashion and practicality instead of "just" a good spell list.

And conversely....


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Style. Always style, especially in a home brewed game. Trust the GM to find ways to make your character relevant.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
I don't think this is a question we can answer for you.

While this thread may give me insight on my own choices in the future, I am also very much interested in how other people approach this subject, because I find the subject interesting. That said, it probably would have served the subject better, if I didn't include my current choice problems... I shall edit the first post accordingly.


Enough power to match the rest of the party. Then style full out.


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Antimony wrote:
Style. Always style, especially in a home brewed game. Trust the GM to find ways to make your character relevant.

This yes. Part of the GM job to make sure everyone is having fun.


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Nothing stops you from having style. Watch this.

Player 1 says, "Longfist the Sailor, my first level fighter moves 20' forward and attacks with his rapier. I rolled 18+5 so I hit AC 14."

GM Says, "That's a hit. Confirm critical."

Player 1 says, "I'm not actually using rapier stats. I'm using great sword stats to show how hard he hits and how powerfully he can resist disarms. He can't fight the way he does and be burdoned with anything in the other hand. In anycase, I crit on a 19+."

GM says, "Fair enough. Roll damage."

Player 1 says, "Longfist unleashes a burst of 3 quick strikes, finishing with a disarm as he usually does, each slice drawing a short cut and a lot of blood. (rolls a 2d6 + 1.5*STR) take 12 points of damage.

GM Says, "The soldier quickly recovers his footing and weapon, lashing back at you with his spear. (rolls once) Striking you back to make room, he leaps a strikes a second time with a leaping stab. Take 7 damage."


I try and go with style with the power to back it up.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

For me, I have a rough minimum for both power and style/flavor. Anything that can boost either axis without bringing the other axis below the minimum will be happily added to the character.


The most entertaining part of character design is coming up with a concept and then seeing how to make it deadly or controly or snuggly or whatever you measure power by. Unless you're dealing with really aggressively obsessive power-builders there's almost always a reasonably happy medium.

Sometimes power-moves like attribute consolidation end up with brilliant style rewards. Taking a single, first level of Nature Oracle and the Noble Scion of War feat to let an Arcane Duelist Bard pirate wannabe dump his dexterity into charisma creates another beast entirely: a terrifying voodoo-pirate who shambles around dodging bullets and striking like lightning through sheer force of character.


My latest obsession is to make a TWF Nunchaku-wielding monk-gunslinger remotely viable. He's also gonna need Monkey Style. So far I'm thinking a mix of Kata Master and Pistolero with two extremely homebrewed weapons.

So depending on who you ask, Style or Neither. :)

Scarab Sages

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Kudaku wrote:

My latest obsession is to make a TWF Nunchaku-wielding monk-gunslinger remotely viable. He's also gonna need Monkey Style.

So depending on who you ask, Style or Neither. :)

Watch that just made me think "Sword-chucks, Yo!"


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Imbicatus wrote:
Kudaku wrote:

My latest obsession is to make a TWF Nunchaku-wielding monk-gunslinger remotely viable. He's also gonna need Monkey Style.

So depending on who you ask, Style or Neither. :)

Watch that just made me think "Sword-chucks, Yo!"

If you like over the top weapon combat scenes I really can't recommend RWBY highly enough. Sun's gun-chucks are actually one of the more restrained weapons in the show! My personal favorite character wields a warhammer/grenade launcher for constant hilarity. :D


Third Mind wrote:

Hello all, I'm here to discuss something that always plagues my choice making capabilities. That matter is, does one go for style? or for power?

The Discussion: If there was a noticeable disparity between characters you wanted to play, one being more powerful and the other more flavorful / unique / stylish, solid, yet not as powerful as the other, which would you choose and why?

Note: This isn't about liking or disliking other classes nor is it an attack on any of them. I know that full casters are almost always more powerful than everything else, but when does style, character and flavor win out?

Power usually wins out, but if I can't have style in my character I'll be bored. It's just that too often "style" means only able to participate in a very small part of the game in a very repetitive way, which makes style boring.


Kudaku wrote:

My latest obsession is to make a TWF Nunchaku-wielding monk-gunslinger remotely viable. He's also gonna need Monkey Style. So far I'm thinking a mix of Kata Master and Pistolero with two extremely homebrewed weapons.

So depending on who you ask, Style or Neither. :)

I don't even need to follow the link to know that's Sun and his gun-chucks. Anyway, regarding style vs power, it's a false dichotomy fallacy. Utility is more valuable than aesthetics, but that doesn't mean that the two are mutually exclusive nor mutually scaled. You can have characters with lots of utility and lots of style. Equally, you can have characters with neither utility nor style. You don't necessarily need to "optimize" your character to make him effective. It's more often the teamwork gestalt that wins fights, not the strength of an individual character. Just keep in mind what kind of role in the fight your character will play. If his "strength" is in dishing out lots of small hits and dodging attacks, don't put him up against a high DR opponent nor one that can easily render him "denied Dex". Or, at least, don't be surprised when he performs poorly in such circumstances.

#RIPMontyOum


Usually I try having an cool concept then making it work, the only time I'm really wondering about "power" is if my build is so bad it'll endanger the other characters. So I'll say: as much style as possible, without putting any other PC's life in danger. (mine can be fine depending on the campaign)Ex: Even though I desperately wanted to make a Dr.Jekyll/Mr.Hyde with the Master Chymist, I had to tone it down at the Ragechemist since I knew it would be a somewhat hard campaign and we needed what little emergency healing I could provide. Still when barbarian 2 to get my fix of rage though.


IMO both are connected. If a cool concept isn't supported by the rules and your character won't work well, than there is no point in playing it.

When the wise old Martial Arts Master you imagined ends up as "guy who flurries and always misses", since you reduced his physical stats because of him being an old man, he becomes a different concept. If your the gritty soldier you wanted your fighter to becomes "dude, who always ends up charmed/dominated by enemy casters", because you invested into flavorful feats, instead of his Will save he won't work.
If you try to play a dexterity bsed fencer in a CRB game, he will likely end up far inferior to the Bararbarian, who travels with him.

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