Hello, everyone!
The title says it all. The joys of being able to afford an actual art budget for Strange Magic have spoiled me a bit, and I'm looking for ways to have a guaranteed income to draw from to make the interstitial releases - like the antipodist or the sanguine disciple - more pleasing to the eye. As a side benefit, such a guaranteed income would also allow me to slow down and make absolutely certain I get the fiddly bits right rather than being forced into the release cadence for optimal income that is dictated by online storefronts.
As most of my core fanbase sets up shop here at paizo.com, I figured this would be the best place to ask. I'm proposing the creation of a Patreon with a buyin of $5 per "creation". Let's define a creation as something of the 25-40 page range that is typical for my base classes, explicitly excluding the little expansion items that would be an utter ripoff at $5, as well as the huge Kickstarter projects which already have a funding framework in place.
What sort of "stretch goal" or "higher backer level" perks would you want to see in order to get you to buy in on something like this and make my life easier? Opinions below, please. Your opinions are far more valuable than mine in this endeavor.
Ability to purchase softcover print at cost?
Access to free PDFs of future expansion material for the classes?
Access to IP documents and periodic group Skypings?
Raffles to name the iconic?
...Making me include iconic statblocks in the first place?
Hello, everyone!
Access to free PDFs of future expansion material for the classes?
...Making me include iconic statblocks in the first place?
I'm always up for some class expansion, be it extra spells, extra feats, or just any other additional power - really like the customization possibilities.
I believe an iconic character would help to sell a class, but more in a "pregenerated character" sense. A player is open minded to try some third party material, but isn't sure, etc, so just drop a finished character in his lap and have him give it a go. I'd probably keep this material separated from the main class document, though - it should just be an example, a suggestion. A freebie!
By the way, the Patreon website does not do a stellar job of explaining what it is for. Sounds like a way to give a salary to independent artists?
Thanks for the feedback, Ragi. I'll try to explain Patreon.
Kickstarter funds single projects.
Patreon is more like a subscription. In my case, it would be you giving me the thumbs up and saying that you're comfortable enough with the Interjection Games brand to commit to slapping a five spot down for each new sizable chunk of content I make, be it a base class with spellbook, a new items compendium, or whatnot.
Creators of content have the option to ask for monthly payments or "per creation" payments from their patrons. With the latter, backers can set a monthly limit, say max $10 per month if the creator really gets gung ho for some reason.
Given how I can sometimes fight a concept for a month, and other times I get a fantastic idea written and out the door in four days, "per creation" is the method that Interjection Games will use.
The huge benefit here is that an established Patreon creator can treat each of his releases like a mini-Kickstarter and have a project budget of crowdsourced dollars in hand to remove the volatility of their income. To draw people in, creators tend to offer stretch goals, such as adding additional content or increasing the art budget at certain levels of funding.
In tabletop gaming, the absolute best example of Patreon use is Evil Hat, the people behind the FATE system. The PDF of their core rulebook is free. Their 54-page mini-settings, released more-or-less monthly, are "pay what you want". They can pull this off because their Patreon pulls in $4,500 per 54-page mini-setting that they crank out, and this money is enough to pay for everything from art and freelancer fees to the salaries of the employees who touch the product. For Evil Hat, they care only about the extra exposure granted them from "pay what you want" on OneBookShelf and other venues, and the kickback sales of hard copies of their core rulebook. Anyone who chips a dollar in is just gravy. For long-term brand building, this is an absolutely fantastic, if fairly money-poor, strategy, as it singlehandedly defeats the distributor-driven expansion treadmill fallacy of RPGs designed from the 1980s through the death of D&D 3.5. A few years of this and FATE will NEVER die, and I'm pretty sure they know it.
Even a tenth of Evil Hat's take, or some $450 per book, would mean the world to me. As I've stated before, the Kickstarter math suggests that I can break even for the year with those big injections of crowdsourced money. These secondary infusions would allow me to ignore market pressures, ignore what it is the masses might want, and develop specifically for those 100 people who have decided that my style is worth it.
And isn't cutting out the middleman and establishing a direct, symbiotic rapport with your fanbase what every artist wants?
Nice summation of both the differences between Patreon/Kickstarter, and how you see the business model working.
And:
Yes.
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Bradley,
I have never supported a Patreon and I will tell you why. If I supported a patreon for say 12 months, I want to know that I will be receiving something of a quality product, AND it is something that I am interested in having. With Patreon, I don't have that option, I would just have to pay you $5.00 (as your example). I love certain Interjection products and others, well I don't see a need to add them to my library. For example, I supported Strange Magic mostly for Ethermagic, and I have been gladly surprised by Truenaming and Composition, and I cannot wait to see this all together in my print book. However, I fluctuate on that like and dislike. For example, I have decided that my next purchase will most likely be The Sanguine Disciple. I read the description yesterday and really enjoyed it. However, I read the Onmyoji & the Brewmaster, and I thought well I will pass on these. Not that they are bad, just not suited for what I am interested in. So that is my problem with a patreon, either love it or hate it, I get a product every month for 12 months. I would hope that if I supported for the year that I would like at least 9 of the products, but I have no guarantee on that. When I support a kickstarter, I know what I am supporting. I do get frustrated, because I don't know how well the company is going to produce the product, and a lot get very delayed, but overall I have been happy with my kickstarter projects.
Okay, rant and rambling over, I hope that helps you our with just one guys opinions.
Bradley,
I have never supported a Patreon and I will tell you why. If I supported a patreon for say 12 months, I want to know that I will be receiving something of a quality product, AND it is something that I am interested in having. With Patreon, I don't have that option, I would just have to pay you $5.00 (as your example). I love certain Interjection products and others, well I don't see a need to add them to my library. For example, I supported Strange Magic mostly for Ethermagic, and I have been gladly surprised by Truenaming and Composition, and I cannot wait to see this all together in my print book. However, I fluctuate on that like and dislike. For example, I have decided that my next purchase will most likely be The Sanguine Disciple. I read the description yesterday and really enjoyed it. However, I read the Onmyoji & the Brewmaster, and I thought well I will pass on these. Not that they are bad, just not suited for what I am interested in. So that is my problem with a patreon, either love it or hate it, I get a product every month for 12 months. I would hope that if I supported for the year that I would like at least 9 of the products, but I have no guarantee on that. When I support a kickstarter, I know what I am supporting. I do get frustrated, because I don't know how well the company is going to produce the product, and a lot get very delayed, but overall I have been happy with my kickstarter projects.
Okay, rant and rambling over, I hope that helps you our with just one guys opinions.
Then, by all means, Chris, treat it like a Kickstarter! If the next thing sounds good, throw $5 in, then take your product and walk off with your support until the next cool thing comes along. Not only will I feel good about knowing a few dollars are sure to come my way, but Patron also takes a mere pittance compared to the 35% evisceration that is OneBookShelf.
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So what you are saying is that I am not required to contribute every single month? I can pick and choose what I want? I thought that I needed to subscribe and take what comes every month.
On another note, when is this patreon planning to go in effect?
Will older products be placed on the patreon? Or just new ones?
As for your question earlier about stretch goals, these are the ones that interest me the most:
Ability to purchase softcover print at cost
Access to free PDFs of future expansion material for the classes
So what you are saying is that I am not required to contribute every single month? I can pick and choose what I want? I thought that I needed to subscribe and take what comes every month.
On another note, when is this patreon planning to go in effect?
Will older products be placed on the patreon? Or just new ones?
As for your question earlier about stretch goals, these are the ones that interest me the most:
Ability to purchase softcover print at cost
Access to free PDFs of future expansion material for the classes
Absolutely, Chris. If the next product looks dull, you can just throw your hands up and withdraw support for awhile. If you make a mistake, Patreon also has a very generous refund policy, but getting a refund and keeping the product is decidedly in bad taste :P
Regarding the stretch goals, what I have listed is merely a jumpoff point. Is there anything you can cook up that you'd like to see offered or included? This includes both stretch goals and premium offerings for a second-tier backer level ($10 or so per product). The at-cost paperbacks and an art budget are the the two ground floor stretch goals I presently have in mind.
As he said while you subscribe each time a product comes out you pay the $5. At any point you can unsubscribe and 'skip' a product and re-subscribe if the next one is more to your liking. While subscribed you do get all the other little bonuses and tidbits that he adds as well.
If the $5 is for class books once or twice a month, I should even probably be able to swing that here and will do so. I happily own all the class books, even if some don't see use at my table.
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As the Strange Magic subscription has given me a much greater appreciation for Interjection Games, I am in also. I will love to see new classes.
I am in. How does the subscription work, is there a certain date in the month that the product will come out? Say like the 1st of the month like my mortgage? Or do we get a couple days to see what the product is coming out and then can we decide.
Pardon all my questions, again I have never subscribed to a patreon before.
As the Strange Magic subscription has given me a much greater appreciation for Interjection Games, I am in also. I will love to see new classes.
I am in. How does the subscription work, is there a certain date in the month that the product will come out? Say like the 1st of the month like my mortgage? Or do we get a couple days to see what the product is coming out and then can we decide.
Pardon all my questions, again I have never subscribed to a patreon before.
And I've never made one! Rather than me declare answers to these questions, how about we discuss what you would like to see?
Obviously, you're going to want a week or so to see an incoming product and make a decision on it, and I'm going to want the freedom to hold onto a project until it's "done" rather than being forced into an unforgiving cadence. What else needs to be addressed?
I think clarifying which products this encompasses would be best for clarity sake. Will it just be class books? If not, what other options are you looking at?
What you could do is set it up so you have a date to announce and a date it can be released by. Say new projects are announced Mondays and released at earliest the following Friday or Saturday. I mean...you have whipped out a class in that timeframe before once or twice. But normally you won't see it for around 2 weeks or so. Or up to 3 if troubles crop up.
That's my thoughts on it anyway. I can swing 10 bucks a month even without a job.
I think clarifying which products this encompasses would be best for clarity sake. Will it just be class books? If not, what other options are you looking at?
What you could do is set it up so you have a date to announce and a date it can be released by. Say new projects are announced Mondays and released at earliest the following Friday or Saturday. I mean...you have whipped out a class in that timeframe before once or twice. But normally you won't see it for around 2 weeks or so. Or up to 3 if troubles crop up.
That's my thoughts on it anyway. I can swing 10 bucks a month even without a job.
This will initially encompass:
A: base classes
B: large non-class projects ala One Bling to Rule Them All
It will NOT encompass
A: Kickstarted projects
B: The little class expansions
C: Product backlog
Stretch goal material may include
A: physical copies of products made available
B: additional content per book
C: art budget
D: iconic characters
E: the aforementioned little class expansions
Sounds like a great layout to me, definitely looking forward to it.
And I'm thankful for your support, both of you!
I'd like to get The Big Book of Bloodlines out the door before I piece together this Patreon, as this move is going to require a lot of work. From what I'm seeing here, I'm going to need to develop a nice pitch, repurpose what color art I have for the Patreon page, use the Kickstarter to direct people who back the Kickstarter to backing the Patreon, and develop an ad to put in all of my big products from here on out to direct people who pick up my work from anywhere else to the Patreon page.
Alright, and a slight change of subject here.
I have the soulshriever in mind for a base class concept. Does anyone else have something on the old wish list?
I have actually been looking forward to the soulshriever. It sounds pretty cool!
Err... What old wish list? Or are you asking for ideas?
If it's the second I have an idea for a class that I've been working on and off for years but I never manage to finish it. I would love to see what a better writer like you could do with it.
Err... What old wish list? Or are you asking for ideas?
If it's the second I have an idea for a class that I've been working on and off for years but I never manage to finish it. I would love to see what a better writer like you could do with it.
It's the latter. Whatcha got?
The Paragon: The ultimate racial class. One racial class for all races.
A paragon is the epitome of his race, an idealized version made flesh, the spirit of the times, a phisical representation of all that the race aspires to be. It's captain america the class.
The paragon should have the same alignment as the usual for the race. So a paragon for an evil race is the epitome of evil.
The main ability would be a list of talents different for each race.
For instance an elf could gain talents involving bow using, nature abilities and some arcane spells, while dwarves would get alents involving axes/picks/hammers, earth related abilities and abilities based on being stubborn and gnomes could get technologic abilities or arcane spells. Talents could also include gaining extra alternate racial traits and racial feats.
Other abilities would include gaining extra attribute points, diplomacy bonus when dealing with your own race, and eventually ascending as a minor godling of your race.
Archetypes I envisioned: the Pariah, the representation of everything bad about the race, the red skull to the captain america of the base class. The Adopted, someone that lives amongst another race for so long that he goes native, so native he starts turning into that race. The mutant is the next step of evolution and gains some evolution points to buy powers. The Renegade changes the class in the ethics alignment for chatic dwarves or lawful elves, not sure what it would change beseides the permitted alignment, I just really like Mass Effect and puns.
I have several skeletons for the class but when it gets to making the talents and talent lists is where I lose steam.
Well if you are looking for ideas I think a more wizard like version of the Sanguine Disciple would be cool. Kinda like what you've done with the Edgewalker/Antipodist.
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The Paragon: The ultimate racial class. One racial class for all races.
A paragon is the epitome of his race, an idealized version made flesh, the spirit of the times, a phisical representation of all that the race aspires to be. It's captain america the class.
The paragon should have the same alignment as the usual for the race. So a paragon for an evil race is the epitome of evil.
The main ability would be a list of talents different for each race.
For instance an elf could gain talents involving bow using, nature abilities and some arcane spells, while dwarves would get alents involving axes/picks/hammers, earth related abilities and abilities based on being stubborn and gnomes could get technologic abilities or arcane spells. Talents could also include gaining extra alternate racial traits and racial feats.
Other abilities would include gaining extra attribute points, diplomacy bonus when dealing with your own race, and eventually ascending as a minor godling of your race.
Archetypes I envisioned: the Pariah, the representation of everything bad about the race, the red skull to the captain america of the base class. The Adopted, someone that lives amongst another race for so long that he goes native, so native he starts turning into that race. The mutant is the next step of evolution and gains some evolution points to buy powers. The Renegade changes the class in the ethics alignment for chatic dwarves or lawful elves, not sure what it would change beseides the permitted alignment, I just really like Mass Effect and puns.
I have several skeletons for the class but when it gets to making the talents and talent lists is where I lose steam.
Alright, now this is a topic I've actually gone over with other publishers in the past.
Back when I was a software QA monkey writing test cases, we had this little thing called future proofing. That is to say, a test case is future proof if the way we designed that test case didn't cause it to become invalid or obsolete if something in a layer that wasn't being tested changed. This is a good thing, as it allows you to write the test case and walk away from it.
This logic also extends to base classes and other game rulesets. The base class in question from another publisher was a "blue mage" who could capture body parts of creatures he has slain and use some of their special abilities. Given the entire 3.5 polymorph thing, this is incredibly dangerous ground, not only because the release of the wrong monster could break the class, but also because multiple publishers crank out new monsters all the time! This made that class fail to be future proof, and an extensive set of abilities was required to be assigned by creature type rather than creature ID in order to make the system work.
If one substitutes creature ID and specific race, similar problems emerge, though it is an issue of new races not having content written for them. As such, rather than develop specific abilities for each race, specific abilities should be designed for the various character traits a race can have. Are they stoic, sneaky, honorable, underhanded? Then assign a number of traits to each race and go with it. GMs can be trusted to pick the right traits for a new race.
Will give it some thought and throw it your way if I come up with something. Looking forward to the new one too!
With a sidebar saying the player should check with the Dm what traits the race has in his campaign world, and maybe a sidebar with recommended traits for the core races. Yeah, that actually works a lot better than what I tried to do.
With a sidebar saying the player should check with the Dm what traits the race has in his campaign world, and maybe a sidebar with recommended traits for the core races. Yeah, that actually works a lot better than what I tried to do.
Aye, when working with something that grows without bounds and normally isn't associated with classes, always set up an artificial constraint, otherwise you've failed before you began.
Polymorph, crafting specialist classes, this "paragon" concept, and others fall into this design abyss.
Another idea I have from my unfinished homebrew folder:
The Survivor:
Some people don't adventure because they want, they just find themselves continually at risk wrapped in dangerous situations. Where most become capable warriors or savy scoundrels and others find power in faith, in studiyng or in their blood, the Survivor just does his best to survive fromone day to the other, wheter by cowardly skill, improbable luck or sheer toughness.
The Survivor would be a d12 1/2BAB all good saves tank/debuffer class with no spellcasting. It can choose two attributes to specialize on, one from con, dex and will, and one from str, int or cha. Or he can choose to not specialize and spread his attributes more.
It would have some fixed class features including DR, SR, fast healing, fortification, resistance to poisons, diseases, atributte damage/drain and immunity to death attacks.
It would have two types of talents, srvivor talents and Survival Paths.
Survivor Talents are based on Cha, Int, or Str
Cha talents focus on taunting or looking like easy prey to draw aggro or inspiring others by cheering them on or giving bonus to people who become your protectors.
Int talents focus on using your knowledge of defenses to lower the defenses of enemies, like pointing the weakness of their armor to lower AC or helping lower the SR of a monster or stopping their fast healing/regeneration for a few rounds. They can also focus on using skills in place of CMB for certain maneuvers.
Str talents deal with doing AoOs, forcing the enemy to provoke AoOs, using touch attacks to deal conditions and trying to keep enemies close to you or focused on you.
Survival Paths is my favorite part of this idea because I don't think I've seen anything quite like it on D20. You have six paths, each path has ten steps. At first level you can take the first step on one path. At every odd level you can either take the first step on another path or the next step of a path you're already in. To access a step you need to have all the steps before it and a score on the associated attribute equal to 10 plus the step number. That way you can stick to one path to get a capstone level ability, or take the inicial steps of several paths to increase versatility or if the your attributes are lower.
The six paths I made:
Armor (Con): The path about trusting your armor to keep you alive. Gives stuff like heavy armor and tower shield proficiency, bonuses when shieldbashing, extra DR, allowing the class DR to stack with DR from armor, and armor training.
Natural Toughness (Con): The path of being a tough bastard. Extra HP, natural armor, a form of controlled rage, increased fortification, mettle, turn the fast healing to regeneration.
Speed (Dex): The path of people who prefer to dodge attacks and consider running away a viable tactic. Gets speed improvement, extra attack and damage for every 10ft before attacking, evasion, miss chances, freedom of movement and even flying.
Shadows (Dex): For those that believe that you can't be hurt if the enemy can't find you. Skill bonus in stealth, disguise and bluff, some sneak attack, HiPS, nondetection and eventual mindblank.
Foresight (Wis): Because it's not parania when they're really coming after you. Bonuses in Perception and Initiative, a smite type ability that can be used on the first round only against people with a smaller initiative, utility abilities, some traps divinations and even the ability to turn any place into a safehouse.
Willpower (Wis): Some people may be frail in body but they more than make up for it with mental strenght. Bonuses against magic, a retaliatory strike that deals extra damage based on the damage you took the past round, ignoring conditions, and eventually making an antimagic field centered on yourself.
How does this compare to the Amora Game class of the same name?
How does this compare to the Amora Game class of the same name?
There is some overlap. They assume the "sheer toughness" approach. They have Good Fort, and d12. They have points they can spend on a basic +1 to save to self or an ally. They have special tricks they pick every 4th level, and those add options on what to spend points on. Pieces of the Armor and Natural toughness.
Very thematically similar - as one would expect with the same named class.
My views are unlikely to be widely held, but may be economically significant (I'm not sure how many people are like me).
I've acted as a patron to various 3PPs/freelancers over the last few years. Sometimes that's been a formal arrangement, other times its been more "implied" (like pledging for a kickstarter and claiming no reward). My personal view is that I prefer a clear distinction between patron and sponsor/backer. As I see things, being a backer means pledging money up front in exchange for certain pre-agreed perks. Similarly, sponsorship involves contributing funds in exchange for some return (usually marketing/promotional benefits, or perhaps in kind support down the track). As a patron, I view it as much less commercial - it's a general support along the lines of "I value what you do" rather than "I want this, specific thing to happen".
I realise patreon is its own thing and my comments about patronage are not necessarily directly applicable (and are perhaps idiosyncratic). Nonetheless, I'd be less likely to consider something which was structured along the lines of "pledge x - get y". I'd personally prefer it to be more loosely defined - the ability to contribute via discussion would be interesting, rights to vote on which class gets an expansion next would be less so.
Hey there, Steve!
I understand where you're coming from. You want face time. You want to talk. You want to feel as though your opinions matter. Those are things I've always cared about - it's why I've made my business scheming very, very public - and I have indeed acted upon a really cool idea from the fanbase at regular intervals. Big examples.
1: Cartomancer
2: Edgewalker
3: 3pp support for The Big Book of Bloodlines
4: The Sanguine Disciple
The point is I already do these things, and when you get me excited, you'll be bombarded with up to two dozen emails a day until the project is done. You'll either love it or want me to shut the heck up already. Saying that you need money to get my ear is disingenuous. It's the Ratatouille effect: everyone can cook! Why on earth would I shut down possible fantastic ideas?
If you'd like a formal chat added to the Patreon, I can figure out how to do a mass Skype, a mass Google Hangout, or some sort of game design livestream and pass out URLs to Patreon backers. Honestly, it sounds like a lot of fun!
I was more drawing a distinction rather than making a specific request (my timezone isn't really conducive to group chats anyhow). What I meant was that I'm more interested in patronage if it's a loose thing, rather than being a strict $-for-reward arrangement.
If the agreement looks like twelve monthly kickstarters, it loses some of its appeal (to me anyhow).
Rest assured the schedule will be when something is done. Your patronage allows me to get off the treadmill and take my time.
If I have the right of it, Steve's but half an hour off my time zone, and you tend to be almost always available/online. Sounds like a keeper!!!
The point is I already do these things, and when you get me excited, you'll be bombarded with up to two dozen emails a day until the project is done.
...ha. We were up to 70 or so I'm pretty sure over a two day period the one time I recall. If not more.
Also you'll find Interjection's schedule is a bit weird itself. ;) I recall a few times happily discussing a class or something with him around 1 to 3 AM.
How does this compare to the Amora Game class of the same name?
Flavor:
Amoras Survivor is a badass survivalist with a mission. He trvels with a party so he has help on what he wants to do and because a group helps keeping you alive.My Survivor is an action survivor trying to survive whatever crazyness is happening now. He doesn't have any real talent for adventuring, he fights like a wizard and casts like a fighter, but maybe he is a chosen one that has to carry a macguffin for the party, or he can be trying to keep an eye on his brother/bestfriend/love interest who decided that beign a wandering adventurer was a good idea, perhaps he is some scholar or priest that hired the party, or maybe apocalipses just happen around him on a weekly basis and the party hangs aorund for the fun.
Rules:
Amoras Survivor is a much better fighter and he can share some of his defensive abilities with the party.
My Survivor is much more versatile in builds, with a talent every level from two pools of talents, the ability to chose what attributes are important to the class and he can choose between buffing, aggro pulling, area control, attrition fighting and two different types of debuffing. It's also much harder to kill, and can choose one area of defenses to specialize on.
Amoras Survivor is somewhat based on a ranger. It seems to aim for a tier 4.
I based mine on the sorcerer chassis trading the bloodline for basic defensive abilities and 9th level spellcasting for the talents. I aimed for a high tier 3 to low tier 2.
So, what we're really working with is a "dilettante class" with a strong defensive focus no matter how you swing it. That's easy enough to do, but it needs something more interesting than talents to make that light up.
I got so focused on gushing about my homebrew I forgot to actually say my point. Sorry.
The point was in trying to make a no magic/low magic low BAB class. The only ones I've seen trying that niche where the Noble by Litle Red and the Momenta by Amora games
Could one of the stretch goals be to have a chance to submit a creation or have input in sonething?
I expect this to be base. I'd like to build a community, NOT a preorder storefront.
Honestly, I think the easiest way to do that would be to create my own subReddit.
Proto-Patreon going up today or tomorrow, along with a subreddit for us to use for the sort of communication that would clutter up a patreon page too much. I know I alone will be enough noise to totally overwhelm the Patreon blog system.
Looking forward to seeing it but admitting straight up I've only used reddit once. I'll probably still pester you through emails and the usual.