Can someone give me an example of "Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 Feet (CRB pg68)." My rogue wants to shot into melee with a crossbow from a distance less than 30'. Can I get sneak attack damages? PS- I don't care about flanking bonuses.
There is A rogue archetype that allows you to treat enemies as flat-footed for a single ranged attack in a round if you move at least 10 feet in a round.
You still need to be inside 30' to apply sneak attack damage as well as move 10' in a round for your attacks to qualify.
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Whenever your opponent is denied a Dex bonus to AC. These include:
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- When they're unstable/balancing or otherwise using Acrobatics to move. Moving through grease is probably the easiest way to manage it a a PC, although there are a lot of environmental conditions that could become involved too.
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Please tell me more about this. Can you cite any rules? Can anyone else? Are targets inside Grease really vulnerable to sneak attacks? Under what conditions?
Magda Luckbender,
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
Check: You can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round. Use the following table to determine the base DC, which is then modified by the Acrobatics skill modifiers noted on page 89. While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any). If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.
Moving through Grease requires an Acrobatics check. This type of Acrobatics check makes you flat-footed. Thus, moving through Grease makes you flat-footed.
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Thanks for this info! I've never played a Pathfinder Rogue, CORE or otherwise. I've SEEN some sneak attacks performed in conjunction with Grease, but was not sure of the mechanics. Please confirm my thinking:
* A CORE Rogue threatens a foe, who is stuck in a Grease spell, with a longspear.
* Foe moves, makes Acrobatics DC to move but fails acrobatics to evade AoO and provokes an AoO
* Rogue gets an AoO & it also counts as sneak attack? Is this correct?
What happens if the foe FAILS the first DC to move in Grease?
Please confirm there is NO SNEAK ATTACK when the foe stands up and provokes an AoO. I'm pretty sure there is not, but please confirm. Please elucidate in detail, if you wish. I want to understand this situation, so I can clearly document it for PFS GM.
Reason: I'm considering playing a CORE Rogue. I'm thinking of getting the Rogue Talents Minor Magic, for Acid Splash to make a start-of-combat ranged touch sneak attack on a high-AC flatfooted foe. Is Ray of Frost a better choice? I'm thinking of Major Magic to cast Grease, for tactical utility. If it's ALSO sometimes possible to generate Sneak Attacks with the Grease then it may be worth while to know that spell for Major Magic. Comments?
Please confirm my thinking:
* A CORE Rogue threatens a foe, who is stuck in a Grease spell, with a longspear.
* Foe moves, makes Acrobatics DC to move but fails acrobatics to evade AoO and provokes an AoO
* Rogue gets an AoO & it also counts as sneak attack? Is this correct?
Attack of opportunities are determined separate from the application of the grease spell, although, if you threaten when he tries to stand up after a fall, you get an AoO and it would be a sneak attack.
The Acrobatics check after moving is related to whether he can move at all while in the area. And if he moves, he is considered to be flat footed. Otherwise he just stands there, which means no sneak attack or AoO from moving or falling.
When your opponent is flat-footed (successfully moving via an acrobatics check inside a greased area), you can even use ranged weapons to make sneak attacks against him.
If he fails the first DC check can't move and must make a reflex save or fall prone. It seems that failing the DC by 5 or more makes you fall automatically, no save.
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if you threaten when he tries to stand up after a fall, you get an AoO and it would be a sneak attack.
I'm not seeing it. It seems like it ought to be true, but I can't find any rules that say this, or even imply it. This is for a CORE PFS character. Can someone please provide a rules link for this?
When your opponent is flat-footed (successfully moving via an acrobatics check inside a greased area), you can even use ranged weapons to make sneak attacks against him.
Well, yes, but he's only flatfooted while actually moving in the Grease area, and will cease being flatfooted upon leaving the Grease area. So the only way to get a sneak attack from this is via either a Readied Action or an AoO. Right?
I bring this up in this thread because this PC will often use a longspear. As a reach weapon, some of the rules for ranged weapons apply.
Standing up from prone provokes, and he is performing a move equivalent action, so if you consider standing up to be equivalent to moving and he is in a greased area, it's a sneak attack.
It seems counter intuitive to me that lateral movement provokes an AoO and is a sneak attack, but standing (vertical movement) while still in contact with the grease area of effect would not.
Most of the time, you would need a readied action or attack of opportunity to get a sneak attack, yes. But there are some ways out there to force movement of an opponent against his will.
When your opponent is flat-footed (successfully moving via an acrobatics check inside a greased area), you can even use ranged weapons to make sneak attacks against him.
Well, yes, but he's only flatfooted while actually moving in the Grease area, and will cease being flatfooted upon leaving the Grease area. So the only way to get a sneak attack from this is via either a Readied Action or an AoO. Right?
From the entry for the grease spell:
I believe it can be reasonably inferred from the bolded passage above that a creature that tries to move and fails is considered flat-footed even though it did not actually "move" any distance.
Standing up from prone provokes, and he is performing a move equivalent action, so if you consider standing up to be equivalent to moving and he is in a greased area, it's a sneak attack.
It seems counter intuitive to me that lateral movement provokes an AoO and is a sneak attack, but standing (vertical movement) while still in contact with the grease area of effect would not.
Most of the time, you would need a readied action or attack of opportunity to get a sneak attack, yes. But there are some ways out there to force movement of an opponent against his will.
Move actions and moving are not the same. Standing up is not moving per the game rules. If you are trying to say that standing up is equal to moving for AoO's then rules citations are needed.
Standing up from prone provokes, and he is performing a move equivalent action, so if you consider standing up to be equivalent to moving and he is in a greased area, it's a sneak attack.
It seems counter intuitive to me that lateral movement provokes an AoO and is a sneak attack, but standing (vertical movement) while still in contact with the grease area of effect would not.
Most of the time, you would need a readied action or attack of opportunity to get a sneak attack, yes. But there are some ways out there to force movement of an opponent against his will.
Actual movement and a move equivalent action are very different things in pathfinder. e.g, I can take a 5' step while also still having a move equivalent action of some sort. I cannot do movement and take a 5' step though.
Furthermore, nothing in the grease spell says a character standing up needs to make a Acro check to succeed, unlike actually moving in the grease does.
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Exactly. Going by the rules what are some ways to exact a sneak attack from someone caught in a Grease Spell? Are there enough ways to make this approach viable?
I'm trying to figure out if this is worth doing. This is for CORE PFS, so personal opinions and house rules are not helpful. I already know how weak Rogues are, and am trying to find a way to play one in CORE PFS, in Hard Mode, that is at least viable.
Magda Luckbender,
If someone is in a grease spell and moving (or trying to move) they are forced to make an acrobatics check and thus are flat-footed.
So, now you just need to have a readied action or an AoO to take advantage of it. :)
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Except that anyone can 5' step out of a grease square, just not into one. There seems to be table variation on this, actually, but there probably should not be. So this only works if one catches the foe on the diagonal. Otherwise they can just 5' step out of the Grease and attack you.
That's a pretty limited situation where this can work. I'm trying to find out whether there are any other ways to possibly exact a sneak attack from this situation. I was pretty sure Standing Up in Grease would not allow a Sneak Attack, per actual rules.
You cannot 5' step out of a grease square.
Check: You can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round.
Because you are forced to make an Acrobatics check to leave the greased square it takes 10' of movement.
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I agree that's how I feel it ought to be, but I've seen a lot of GMs allow a 5' step out of grease. It always rubbed me wrong, and I guess they were incorrect, but I could not find relevant rules to cite. One can 5' step out of Difficult Terrain, but not into it. Is a Grease area also Difficult Terrain, or is it something else. When I GM I don't allow the 5' step out of Grease, but no one has ever tried to argue it. Can you cite a rule showing one should not get a 5' step to leave Grease? Is it in the Grease spell description?
I just did.
1) Grease requires a "footing" Acrobatics check (as opposed to a "jump" or "tumble" acrobatics check) to move within or through a greased square.
2) If you are making a "footing" Acrobatics check your speed is halved.
Thus, you cannot take a 5' step to leave a greased square. The rules are on CRB p291 (Grease) and CRB p87 (Acrobatics).
There really is no interpretation problem here. What I am guessing is happening is that the GM is looking at Grease and forgetting the rules regarding Acrobatic's half-speed rule.
Jeff Merola, if they are arguing that there is no Acrobatics check that is an entirely different problem. Grease also says moving within, not just through.
It is pretty clear that Grease's intent is any movement while you are standing on a Greased square should require an Acrobatics check. Even if that movement is to depart the Greased square.
Jeff Merola, stepping off of a banana peel is also leaving the banana peel but it doesn't mean you wont slip and fall. I think Grease is similar. You are trying to step off of a slippery substance onto a non-slippery substance. That should require an Acrobatics check.
However, I agree that there will be table variation on whether or not you are required to make an Acrobatics check to leave a greased square.
Magda Luckbender, perhaps you should make a FAQ request asking if an Acrobatics check is required to leave a Greased square. That is really the only unclear point at this point.
I did not bring real world physics into it. I brought cartoon-physics into it. *grins*
Seriously though, I wan't bringing Physics into it. Just the common perception of how a slippery substance works. Acrobatics is more about GM fiat than most things.
If someone is in a grease spell and moving (or trying to move) they are forced to make an acrobatics check and thus are flat-footed.
So, now you just need to have a readied action or an AoO to take advantage of it. :)
I don't believe you need an attack of opportunity or a readied action in this situation.
If their action that round is moving or trying to move any amount of distance in the greased area then that is what they're doing during the round and they are subsequently flat-footed for the entire round, not just for their turn.
The rule is that you're flat-footed while using acrobatics in that way, not for the turn you use acrobatics that way in.
True, but aren't all of the actions in a round happening more or less simultaneously? Isn't a character moving in a greased area doing that action while all the rest of the characters are acting as well? This would include a rogue who is taking advantage of the off-balance character and targeting them from across the room with a ranged weapon. They're off-balance and flat-footed so they cannot effectively dodge and protect themselves from the precise nature of the rogue's sneak attack.
I don't believe "while" refers to the act of rolling the dice during a skill check, thus only allowing readied attacks and attacks of opportunity.