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Much has been said about this in the past but as of yet, there has not been an official ruling on the matter. There have been several threads in the Rules Questions Forum touching on this topic, but they were not formatted as FAQ requests. It is my hope that this might be the last one on the matter.
Here is the text pertaining to Outsiders, emphasis added:
Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).Darkvision 60 feet.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Here is the text pertaining to Magic Jar:
Magic JarSchool necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a gem or crystal worth at least 100 gp)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 hour/level or until you return to your body
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar. You may move back to the jar (thereby returning the trapped soul to its body) and attempt to possess another body. The spell ends when you send your soul back to your own body, leaving the receptacle empty. To cast the spell, the magic jar must be within spell range and you must know where it is, though you do not need line of sight or line of effect to it. When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead.
While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures. You cannot determine the exact creature types or positions of these creatures. In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more HD between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. (Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)
You could choose to take over either a stronger or a weaker creature, but which particular stronger or weaker creature you attempt to possess is determined randomly.
Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and force the creature's soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.
As a standard action, you can shift freely from a host to the magic jar if within range, sending the trapped soul back to its body. The spell ends when you shift from the jar to your own body.
If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.
If the spell ends while you are in the magic jar, you return to your body (or die if your body is out of range or destroyed). If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position), and the soul in the magic jar returns to its body (or dies if it is out of range). Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host's location.
Mandatory posts from James Jacobs:
James Jacobs - Sep 22, 2009, 01:55 PM
deinol wrote:
Does anyone have examples of demons or devils using Magic Jar in an adventure or source book?
Shadow demons can use magic jar as a spell-like ability.
And demonic possession is all over the place, so I'd say that demons/devils/all outsiders can use (and be used by) magic jar. They can in PFRPG and in Golarion, in any case.
James Jacobs - Oct 7, 2012, 10:18 PM
The rules are unfortunately unclear. Logically, you would not be able to use magic jar on a creature without a soul, and so that means you shouldn't be able to use the spell on outsiders, undead, or constructs. I recommend that you lift that for native outsiders, and even allow it to work on normal outsiders, but it shouldn't work on constructs or undead at all.Ravingdork wrote:
Can you use Magic Jar against outsiders or undead?
I think yes, since the target line says "one creature" with no other limitations (it does not mention the target needing to be alive or sentient, for example).
However, I've heard others say "no" on the basis that outsiders ARE souls, and that undead don't HAVE souls.
I was hoping to get some clarification on intent.
James Jacobs - Oct 7, 2012, 11:44 PMThe rules are unfortunately unclear. Logically, you would not be able to use magic jar on a creature without a soul, and so that means you shouldn't be able to use the spell on outsiders, undead, or constructs. I recommend that you lift that for native outsiders, and even allow it to work on normal outsiders, but it shouldn't work on constructs or undead at all.Can you use Magic Jar against outsiders or undead?
I think yes, since the target line says "one creature" with no other limitations (it does not mention the target needing to be alive or sentient, for example).
However, I've heard others say "no" on the basis that outsiders ARE souls, and that undead don't HAVE souls.
I was hoping to get some clarification on intent.
The spell's description (which is a right mess), intermixes "soul" (which some creatures are, and others don't have at all) with "life force" (which all creatures have, otherwise they'd be inanimate objects). I imagine that since Devils can't be stripped of a soul, it is instead their "life force" that gets forced into the jar.Do you think is it possible that the spell was originally meant to work on life forces (or animated forces) rather than souls and that it's basically just a terminology snafu? (I ask this because of it originally being written in v3.0.)I think it's more possible that the spell was originally meant to work on creatures with souls back when the game didn't have all the extra complexity it does today. It was originally written in 1st edition... maybe even before that (can't remember off the top of my head where the spell first showed up, but it was in the 1st edition AD&D Player's Handbook for sure.
The spell is meant for you to possess a living target, not an animated target. That's the flavor the rules should be enforcing.
Quotes from Pathfinder Contributors:
I think the question that needs to be asked with souls and bodies is what exactly is the body made out of? Physical meat? Congealed ectoplasm? What?
If you chop off a tiefling's tail, you probably have a bloody severed tail. Native outsider or not, the tiefling has a regular physical body and you can unhinge the soul from it, magic jar it and so forth.
A devil? If you chop off its tail, the tail probably dissolves into smoke or something. Its body is just a manifestation of its eeeevil soul. But unhinging it from its ectoplasm might send that back to Hell, so wouldn't be a useless power.
Then look at undead. You probably can't magic jar incorporeal undead. But corporeal undead? There's no reason you couldn't take a vampire's soul out and take over his dead body for a while.
Technically the lack of body-soul duality should throw a kink into certain things like magic jar, but for simplicity I generally have the spell work as intended, but twist the way or reason that it works. For instance if you magic jar into an outsider I typically have the spell work as per normal, but the outsider's soul isn't moved to the magic jar's focus, because it's inseparable from / it -is- its body. It's more that a second soul is juxtaposed and in the driver's seat temporarily.I usually go rules as intended, even if a strict reading of outsider nature should render certain effects impossible.
Quoting myself from a recent forum thread that I participated in, but don't want to re-type and paraphrase:
Personally, I would rule that:
1.) Outsiders cannot normally cast Magic Jar or have Magic Jar cast on them, because of the dual nature, but an allowance can be made for incorporeal outsiders due to the following exceptions: Ataxian, Belier Devil, Invidiak, Gidim, Shadow Demon, Son of Perdition and Umbral Shepherd. With the exception of the Ataxian and the Belier Devil, they are all incorporeal; meaning that they have no body for the Magic Jar to use. Without exception, they all make reference to their power of possession under their special abilities, explaining how they can do it. In particular, all but two of them explicitly say that they use their possession ability without requiring a receptacle. The only two that don't detail their ability is the Shadow Demon and the example Invidiak, a CR 19 unique being whose write-up focuses on flavor text and tactics instead of detailing her 53 spells and spell-like abilities. Only 1 of the 53 gets a write-up. In Demons Revisited (page 29), the Invidiak are described as being able to use Magic Jar (like the other Shadow Demon linked above, which is a very similar kind of being), with limitations, and it does imply that it is only able to use its possessing ability because it has no body of its own.
TL;DR, The rule as written is unclear, and I request that anyone interested in hearing an official ruling from the Pathfinder Design Team on the matter please hit the FAQ button.
It would be nice to have this resolved to reduce table variation.
As it stands, a straight reading gives some particularly odd results.
well i guess it's nice to see that at least some contributors share my interpretation of RAI. i said earlier than most likely the spell was not intended to make outsiders immune.
yes, and the MECHANICAL portion of that bullet is that they as said cannot be reincarnated with those spells. it explains why from a logical and lore stand point in the same section. still fluff.Bandw2:
Outsider text for clarity
** spoiler omitted **The first few sentences are almost certainly fluff (fluff - meaning that they have no impact on any other rules in the game, or on interaction with players)
The bullets between the fluff and Traits section are mechanical, they inform GMs on how to go about making an outsider.
In the traits section, 4 out of 5 bullets are straightforward, not fluff. The one that you are questioning gives a general rule (unlike most living creatures) and a specific rule (an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit.) It then goes on to reference some implications of this. The relevant portions of the mentioned spells are
RAW it works on intelligent Undead (the spell itself even calls this out) and Outsiders. This isn't worth FAQing. The rules are clear. Even if James Jacobs seems to be very uncertain what with a yes, no, yes set of answers.
It is worth pointing out that those I quoted are not Designers, Developers or on the Pathfinder Design Team. If I had found any quotes from any such authority, I would have posted them as well. As it is, there are clear differences of opinion on RAW, and there have been arguments back and forth going for over 5 years at minimum, considering the first quote is from 2009, so it clearly qualifies as a frequently asked question. James Jacobs' stance speaks to RAI, not RAW, and the statements quoted are such that everyone involved sees the logical inconsistency with allowing Outsiders to be targets, but personally recommend allowing it anyway for gameplay reasons. That is a perfectly valid attitude to take for general gameplay at home, but the RAW should be clear one way or the other.
If it is supposed to work on Outsiders, it should say so explicitly, like the Possession and Malevolence special abilities in the linked monster stat blocks do. Errata is not required, but a FAQ response should be issued.
If it is not supposed to work on Outsiders, there also doesn't need to be an errata, but there should at least be a FAQ response.
@ Bandw2: I realize I'm not going to sway you at this point, but I'll go ahead and echo something from before.
You cannot tell, a priori, what is fluff and what is crunch/mechanical. You can make a determination of that only if you can examine all of the other rules and ensure that there is no impact caused by what is written. In this particular case, there is an impact (if possibly unintended).
For instance, this would be pretty clearly a mechanical thing, if elsewhere a feat or spell specifically mentioned that it only works on beings with a dual-nature.
As it is, it is less clear. Unfortunately, both Magic Jar and the outsider type talk about souls, and there is a definite impact on the outcome of rules if you consider it to be fluff or not.
There are many possible reasons as to why Magic Jar didn't get a mention in the outsider text:
- Developers forgot
- Developers were unaware of the interaction
- Editors needed to save space in print
- Developers thought the rules were clear
- ?
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Anzyr: Claiming that the rules are clear completely ignores the history of this problem demonstrated in Cuuniyevo's original post.
However, you still seem pretty certain that there is no room for confusion. How about you help us out with our reading comprehension and describe how the Magic Jar spell works, going line by line through the spell, as I have, which leads to the conclusion that you defend.
I did this in another thread, and asked you to counter it, explicitly stating that if you could come up with a cogent response I would be swayed.
You did not give such a response there, though that was only scant hours before this thread was created.
By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar. You may move back to the jar (thereby returning the trapped soul to its body) and attempt to possess another body. The spell ends when you send your soul back to your own body, leaving the receptacle empty. To cast the spell, the magic jar must be within spell range and you must know where it is, though you do not need line of sight or line of effect to it. When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead.
While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures. You cannot determine the exact creature types or positions of these creatures. In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more HD between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. (Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)
You could choose to take over either a stronger or a weaker creature, but which particular stronger or weaker creature you attempt to possess is determined randomly.
Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and force the creature's soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.
Let's go through line by line to see what happens.
"By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless."
- Ok, no problems here. First thing that happens, you cast your soul into the receptacle.
"Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar."
- As you attempt to take control of the nearby outsider, you force its soul (and therefore body) into the gem. Let's go ahead and assume you are possessing the body/soul at this point, though I don't know if all GMs would be down with even getting thus far.
"You may move back to the jar (thereby returning the trapped soul to its body) and attempt to possess another body."
- Because you moved back into the jar (willingly or not) the trapped soul (and body!) are released -- or imprisoned until the receptacle spell ends. Technically there is no part of the spell that excludes the possibility of more than one soul occupying it at the same time, except for the assumption that the body never gets forced into the receptacle in the first place
"The spell ends when you send your soul back to your own body, leaving the receptacle empty."
- The spell is still working until you actively choose to return to your own body. You can attempt to possess the outsider again, wasting more actions if you desire.
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My reading, lain bare.
@ Bandw2: I realize I'm not going to sway you at this point, but I'll go ahead and echo something from before.
You cannot tell, a priori, what is fluff and what is crunch/mechanical. You can make a determination of that only if you can examine all of the other rules and ensure that there is no impact caused by what is written. In this particular case, there is an impact (if possibly unintended).
For instance, this would be pretty clearly a mechanical thing, if elsewhere a feat or spell specifically mentioned that it only works on beings with a dual-nature.
As it is, it is less clear. Unfortunately, both Magic Jar and the outsider type talk about souls, and there is a definite impact on the outcome of rules if you consider it to be fluff or not.
There are many possible reasons as to why Magic Jar didn't get a mention in the outsider text:
- Developers forgot
- Developers were unaware of the interaction
- Editors needed to save space in print
- Developers thought the rules were clear
- ?
except the magic jar spell gives no outcome in which you cannot rip the soul from the target, so therefore it can, since there are not rules in RAW for this circumstance. it doesn't fail because it is a valid target and is not immune to the effects. you still have to show with actual written material what happens if magic jar does not work as written on an outsider. your given example is you trying to find a way for it to work, but not actually doing what the spell says it does. the spell can't do things beyond it's confines, it cannot trap outsider's entire bodies into the jar, nor can your soul be floating about or in the jar and in the outsider at the same time.
as james jacobs said in the third thing, from 2012, magic jar is old, and it was to stop you from possessing animated objects such as animated undead or other such stuff. not to make things with weird souls immune to it. that as mentioned in fluff and is not intended to make a mechanical difference.
in fact, this pretty much shows that they specifically do not intend for the interaction to take place and for things to roll normally.
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Intent does not, unfortunately, match with the actual written word. Sometimes, people use suboptimal language, or do not take into account that some similar words were used in other places that might have unfortunate interactions with the what they plan.
It may very well be fluff. However, fluff is not written in a special ink or font, so we can not rely on that as a basis for an argument.
It is your opinion that the creature is not effectively immune to the spell. I outlined my interpretation of the spell line by line, and asked for the opposing view's similar interpretation.
My interpretation does not ascribe more actions to the spell than what is explicitly written. It does make the written actions more significant, but it does *exactly* what the spell says it does with no extrapolation to try and make sense of it.
The response was a nit-picking of my interpretation, but not the opposing interpretation.
Really, if a clear reading is available, I'm all ears.
Intent does not, unfortunately, match with the actual written word.
it does actually since having or not having or any interaction with a soul is fluff.
k in mine, as said, exactly as magic jar says happens, happens.
your soul ends up in the outsider's body and it's soul ends up in the jar, magic jar effectively sunders the connection between it's soul and body temporarily.
your soul ends up in the outsider's body and it's soul ends up in the jar, magic jar effectively sunders the connection between it's soul and body temporarily.
There's no 'connection' between its body and soul. By RAW, an outsider doesn't have a dual body/soul nature. There is just 'an outsider.' You can't separate body and soul when there is literally no distinction between the two.
How do you know what is fluff and what is not? As far as I can tell, there is no a priori way to do so. It is, rather, a determination made after examining the rest of the rules and finding it has absolutely no bearing on anything, anywhere, in the rules.
I didn't repeat the qualification from the last thread, assuming you'd remember.
It is insufficient to restate your end outcome as an argument in support of your end outcome. Doing that just ends with us going in circles.
Please, go through line by line and produce the end outcome.
Here's my take on outsiders. It all depends how the outsider got into the prime material plane.
1) If he was summoned, his body is just a "copy" and his real body & soul are in some other plane. You can't magic jar him because his soul isn't accessible.
2) If he came via a gate or similar means, he is really there, body & soul. So you can magic jar him, no problem.
3) If the outsider has no material body as such – he is incorporeal for whatever reason – then you can't magic jar him because there is no body to possess.
Now, how this flies according to RAW, I'm not sure. But whatever you decide is going to depend on how you interpret the body & soul duality.