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So here's how it happened in my game. After our wizard cast his feeblemind on the assassin, the dude stabbed the hostage just like he'd threatened.
When the smoke cleared, the duchess (and her one remaining hit point) demanded an explanation. “What in the hells is the matter with you? I could have been killed!”
“Meh,” said the wizard. “We’ve got breath of life as backup. You wouldn’t have been killed for long.”
That's a fully rules-legal take, but it doesn't strike me as a very satisfying one. Is there a good way to make the old "human shield" shtick an actually-challenging challenge? How would you design this trope in your games?
You kind of can't with this system. The moment the talking is over, it's roll-for-initiative. If the hostage-taker wins initiative, it's coup-de-grace and the hostage is dead. If they don't, you've got until their turn to nuke them or somehow get the hostage out. Total gamble.
As for the roleplay side of things, that's when the duchess throws her (not inconsiderable) influence into ruining the Chaotic-Neutral party's reputation. "You wouldn't've been killed for long" isn't Good, and relying on luck is the antithesis of Law.
There's a saving throw involved in a coup de grace if they survive the damage, which would leave them dead regardless of HP if they failed. That wouldn't matter when it comes to Breath of Life, mind you, but by the time they have 5th level spells, they're probably beyond a challenge like that anyway.
That said, it's completely appropriate for the subject of such a situation to be upset about being literally dead. I can't imagine that having your throat slit is a pleasant experience, even (especially) if you survive it.
Some mid-game options:
Add a quickened death knell.
Make the knife user an assassin 4+ for a more difficult raise dead.
Make the knife user a time oracle with Erase from Time. The ability won't kill the victim, but has a good chance to shock the players.
Beforehand add unwilling shield to the victim, so you only need to deal some damage to it to make things complicated for the party.
I genuinely laughed out loud at this topic's comic. Good on ya!
This scenario has been a challenge for many players, including myself, for years. The coup de grace rule is a life-saver. Wait, maybe not...
You kind of can't with this system. The moment the talking is over, it's roll-for-initiative. If the hostage-taker wins initiative, it's coup-de-grace and the hostage is dead. If they don't, you've got until their turn to nuke them or somehow get the hostage out. Total gamble.
As for the roleplay side of things, that's when the duchess throws her (not inconsiderable) influence into ruining the Chaotic-Neutral party's reputation. "You wouldn't've been killed for long" isn't Good, and relying on luck is the antithesis of Law.
Hostages that have a knife at their throat aren't generally considered helpless, so a coup-de-grace is generally not an option unless they are also bound.
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Hostages that have a knife at their throat aren't generally considered helpless, so a coup-de-grace is generally not an option unless they are also bound.You kind of can't with this system. The moment the talking is over, it's roll-for-initiative. If the hostage-taker wins initiative, it's coup-de-grace and the hostage is dead. If they don't, you've got until their turn to nuke them or somehow get the hostage out. Total gamble.
As for the roleplay side of things, that's when the duchess throws her (not inconsiderable) influence into ruining the Chaotic-Neutral party's reputation. "You wouldn't've been killed for long" isn't Good, and relying on luck is the antithesis of Law.
No, but they could be pinned, so sneak attack is an option.
I guess the weird thing here is the wizard using Feeblemind in this situation. As far as I can tell, that won't do much as the dude should still be able to attack and loses their ability to understand you, but not the ability to distinguish friends from foes. I have had players go all Leeroy Jenkins before, but this is a ridiculously stupid move.
Then again, a hostage situation like this is always kinda pointless. You can't kill your hostage, because then you don't have a hostage anymore... leaving you an easy target. The only way out is by surrendering. I get that it's a cinematic trope, but it's just not a strategic move.
I wonder if we could give this a fantasy spin that would work better, like threatening to release the Efreeti in the bottle.
Edit: See, this is what I mean. If you follow the link, you'll find that the assassin chose to grapple his target, rather than just use his death attack. Why would anyone do that? Ofcourse your NPC is going to seem inept if you don't use their strengths.
TL;DR: A hostage situation is great in a popcorn flick, but it's not so great in any other setting.
Then again, a hostage situation like this is always kinda pointless. You can't kill your hostage, because then you don't have a hostage anymore... leaving you an easy target. The only way out is by surrendering. I get that it's a cinematic trope, but it's just not a strategic move.
Surrendering requires some basic trust in the opposite side. Even if they would deserve that trust, the hostage taker would also have to perceive it that way.
And if you have a hostage, you can do more than either kill or not kill them. You can hurt them to increase pressure, since their allies don't want that either. In Pathfinder / DnD it might have to be more than HP damage, but a Con poison could already be enough. Upgrade to negative levels or destruction of soul if necessary.
And if the opposite side trusts you in returning the hostage, you can actually move to a safer place. In Pathfinder / DnD that might be a teleportation circle or a magic gate. And a solid Sense Motive check might convince even skeptical players that it could work out.
A pinned creature is helpless.
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions.
I see someone who has a knife to their throat as a little less than grappled. grappled characters are not helpless.
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Have you read Death's Heretic?
Something like that might work as well. Breath of life just fails, or the body is fine but the person never wakes up because they're not there.
Then the adventurers have to free the soul from entrapment.
Have you read Death's Heretic?
** spoiler omitted **
Something like that might work as well. Breath of life just fails, or the body is fine but the person never wakes up because they're not there.
** spoiler omitted **
Then the adventurers have to free the soul from entrapment.
It can fail for other reasons, too, like the soul not being willing. Maybe they decide to move on out of spite, or maybe they're in on it and have made their own arrangements with someone else. Either way, the PCs may be in trouble.
I love that the question here is, essentially, "how do you make a hostage situation satisfyingly cinematic when the victim dying isn't much of a threat to the PCs?" and most of the answers are "Eh, assassins can't really murder someone like that using the current rules in place."
You don't need a coup de grace or sneak attack at all, if the target is low enough on HP already.
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So a few things to bear in mind . . .
1) The soul must be free, I've always run that as the god (Pharasma in this setting) must be willing to allow its return. So any death always carries that chance of this time they don't come back if the ability mentions the soul being free. Even if you don't go this route there's plenty of fantasy soul stealing weapons even in modern superhero comics Katana's katana takes the victims soul. You could easily make a custom weapon that uses its victims souls to power its abilities. Doesn't even have to be irreversible just very difficult and possibly with a time limit. "The Duchess doesn't respond to breath of life. Why? Well make a knowledge arcana check . . . you recognize the dagger the assasin was holding as the dagger of Kali a weapon regarded as an abomination by pharasman priesthood. Anyone slain by it has thier soul sealed with the gem on the hilt to power its magical abilites when the gem turns from black to white the soul has been destroyed. How do you get it out? Well now that is the question maybe you can ask around see if any of your contacts know a way but it is an artifact.
2) Breath of life fails if the subject is killed by a death effect easy enough to bring into the encounter I'm sure (the assasin prestige can get it on their attacks). Even aside from that they have to heal enough to restore them to a certain level. 5d8 + 25 (max) is not bad but if you roll badly or the cou de grace was bad enough and you don't restore them to that threshold they remain dead.
3) As others have said cou de grace. . .
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
I don't know what level your party is but lets assume 9th as the cleric was casting breath of life. That's a 5d6 sneak attack + 2d4 for a dagger not counting any magic or the like + a save vs death. Sure breath of life does more but dice rolls are variable. I've never used them but I'm sure there's con draining poisons he could have on the blade lowering her hp and chance of anything like breath of life working. When you factor in magic a Bane Weapon +1 equivilent adds 2d6 damage to any humans being stabbed
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To spice up coup de grace you could rule that it is a defacto death effect based on the definition of death effect.
The logic:
* Death effect are attacks, that when the target fails their save they take a whole lot of damage or die.
* Coup de grace are attacks, that when the target fails their save they die.
Now anyone that dies from a coup de grace cannot be saved by a breath of life. You can however prevent it with deathward.
Nope. Then death ward would make you immune to coup de grace
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the creature takes a large amount of damage, which might cause it to die instantly.
Raise dead doesn’t work on someone killed by a death attack or effect.
Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
The spell death ward protects against these attacks.
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I assume that the assassin has readied an action to kill the victim if certain conditions (unknown to the players) are met.
So no intitiativ roll. This is why hostage situations are difficult.
Besides the victim will most likely grant cover to the assassin.
Breath of life/raise dead/speak with dead etc. change the situation and hired killers will make extra effort to avoid that as allready mentioned.
Hostage situations take some bending of the normal rules...
The hostage is helpless, and will be subject to a readied CdG [say the villain has the Throat Slicer feat]. Bonus points if you give the villain Achaekek's Mantis Embrace gloves, so the hostage's "head erupts in a geyser of blood, preventing life-restoring spells that require an intact body."
If the party allows the villain to finish their BS speech, the hostage dies.
If the party takes action immediately, ignoring the villain's stupid speech, the party gets a surprise round. The party must subdue the villain in the surprise round, or the readied CdG kills the hostage.
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I figure that knife to throat is sufficient to qualify for the "otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy" part of coup de grace. For NPCs at any rate. I also figure combat would be started with the hostage being taken if not before hand, so surprise rounds wouldn't figure into it, but readying would.
Death not being the worst possible fate is always a problem in later Pathfinder. Instant death effects mean instant life effects need to be in there as well, or adventure ends about as abruptly as it does in real life. If you want the same drama at higher levels, you need to update the threat to something not as easily overcome.
They aren't just dead 1, but dead 2! We need a resurrection 2! Soul trapping, soul destruction, instant aging to death, made undead, and so on and so forth.
Maybe the kingdom has laws regarding succession and a person's first death, in order to avoid resurrection of dead nobility causing endless succession wars.
I figure that knife to throat is sufficient to qualify for the "otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy" part of coup de grace.
I disagree, the classic villain grabbing the hostage, pulling them in front of them and holding a knife to their throat, isn't even a grapple, much less "at an opponent's mercy". But I will admit that allowing it for NPC's and a theatrical scene it might be appropriate, however, RAW, I am not on board.
That is why I said the situation requires some bending of the rules... and a willing audience.
If some rules-lawyer deems it necessary to chime in with exactly how far the rules have been bent, then it's not worth presenting similar situations in the future. Apologize for wasting the group's time trying something Karin doesn't approve of, and move on with the story... avoiding anything that might even hint at bending or breaking the sacred rules ever again.
Or, politely tell Karin to GTFOH, and post an opening at your table on whatever platform you use to find players.
A central part of how I handle this is to use the rule for starting a full round action in one round and finishing it in the next. Now the HR part is to allow the second standard action to be delayed, if a reasonable explanation can be made as to how that works. Now the second, standard action, half of a CdG can be readied or performed during a surprise round.
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I figure that knife to throat is sufficient to qualify for the "otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy" part of coup de grace.I disagree, the classic villain grabbing the hostage, pulling them in front of them and holding a knife to their throat, isn't even a grapple, much less "at an opponent's mercy". But I will admit that allowing it for NPC's and a theatrical scene it might be appropriate, however, RAW, I am not on board.
All a grapple does is remove the target's ability to move away from the attacker, restrict the use of one of their arms, and make it harder to take physical actions. Grabbing someone's arm fulfills all that. Pinning someone to your chest with one arm seems more than sufficient to be a grapple. Traditionally, the victim can do nothing before freeing themselves, so possible even pinned.
Whether or not "knife to throat" is at someone's mercy I'll agree is debatable, but not even grappled is a stretch.
You could do it with a cleric/assassin team. Cleric casts ‘hold person’, assassin does the cutting. The spell can be cast from a distance away, so in a busy street environment, the PCs might not even notice the cleric at first.
Its not like this is a game with rules or anything. Rules that are there to prevent GMs from doing whatever arbitrary nonsense they want because 'drama'. The rules of the game are there to give all the parties standardized set of expectations on how the world works. If the players don't know how the world operates they can't make informed decisions about their actions.
Pathfinder isn't a movie, it isn't a novel and everyone's lives are better when people don't treat it that way.
I completely agree that the GM needs to stick to the rules as much as possible. Playing with GM Cheaterpants soon becomes tedious. On the other hand, the rules don’t cover every situation. ( Though in this case, the grapple rules do cover it.)
What drew me to D&D years ago was my love of fantasy novels, and my desire to place myself into the story. The same holds true for Pathfinder, today. If the game doesn’t provide some sort of feel of being a story. a novel, or a movie, then it would hold no draw for me. If Pathfinder is reduced to a mere war game, well, there are better ones. Chess, for example.
I assume that the assassin has readied an action to kill the victim if certain conditions (unknown to the players) are met.
So no intitiativ roll. This is why hostage situations are difficult.
Besides the victim will most likely grant cover to the assassin.Breath of life/raise dead/speak with dead etc. change the situation and hired killers will make extra effort to avoid that as allready mentioned.
Technically, readying is a special action taken during initiative so you can't ready actions outside of initiative.
Of course, an assassin could probably prepare an action in the non game term sense to the same effect, but I feel like the distinction is important.
Even worse, coup de grace is a full round action, so it's not even a legal option for the ready action. :/
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Even worse, coup de grace is a full round action, so it's not even a legal option for the ready action. :/I assume that the assassin has readied an action to kill the victim if certain conditions (unknown to the players) are met.
So no intitiativ roll. This is why hostage situations are difficult.
Besides the victim will most likely grant cover to the assassin.Breath of life/raise dead/speak with dead etc. change the situation and hired killers will make extra effort to avoid that as allready mentioned.
Technically, readying is a special action taken during initiative so you can't ready actions outside of initiative.
Of course, an assassin could probably prepare an action in the non game term sense to the same effect, but I feel like the distinction is important.
This is why Slayers are OP as actual assassins. Thanks to Merciless Butchery feat a Slayer (or a character with Studied Target and enough sneak attack dice) can attempt a coup de grace against any target that is cowering, helpless, or stunned as a standard action without provoking.
Thus a Slayer is able to ready an action to coup de grace. It gets even more wonky if you go full slayer grapple build due to grapple sneak attack shenanigans.
14th level: Quarry - All crits autoconfirm.
20th level: Make a single attack and declare its a "kill" - succeed at a fortitude save or die even if you survive the damage.They are indeed very scary.
Even worse, coup de grace is a full round action, so it's not even a legal option for the ready action. :/I assume that the assassin has readied an action to kill the victim if certain conditions (unknown to the players) are met.
So no intitiativ roll. This is why hostage situations are difficult.
Besides the victim will most likely grant cover to the assassin.Breath of life/raise dead/speak with dead etc. change the situation and hired killers will make extra effort to avoid that as allready mentioned.
Technically, readying is a special action taken during initiative so you can't ready actions outside of initiative.
Of course, an assassin could probably prepare an action in the non game term sense to the same effect, but I feel like the distinction is important.
I know the argument, but Berserker sphere has a talent - Decapitate - which lets you do it as a Standard action.
So if a DM wants to set this scenario up, it can be done. Just requires the right tools.
What is "berserker sphere?"
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There's also throat slicer
Make the hostage an item that looses all magic when broken.
The bad guy gets to the treasure just before the party does and has the fragile McGuffin in hand. The party is blocking the exit, but if they kill the competition they loose the loot.