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After a second going through of Ultimate Campaign. I discovered some potential gold.
It is possible to pit entire armies against singular targets. Why do i think this is important?
Now we have a frame of reference on what it takes to take down some of the larger and more deadly creatures in the Bestiaries. And possibly have actual rules for rallying an army to slay the dragon.
For example.
A Mature Adult Red Dragon is CR 15. But if we convert her over to mass combat, She comes out at ACR 7.
This is almost the equivalent of a huge army (201-500 units) comprised of level 3 fighters. (ACR 6)
I'm not familiar with how CR translates in monster-vs-monster context. Is that supposed to mean a 50% chance of victory for either side?
Please keep in mind that the mass combat rules are only to approximate such things and tend to have odd, skewed results.
Pathfinder is best used to focus on small tactical combat (group of PCs against 1-dozens of opponents). Simulating vast armies against a lone, high CR creature can be done. This tends to take away the roleplaying opportunities for PCs.
I prefer to use mass combat rules to thumbnail when a battle the PCs are in is overwhelming - i.e., the decisions PCs make may aid their own survival, yet do not affect the outcome of the battle (in the case of allied unit overwhelming the enemy, PCs can sit, relax, and watch without fear of loss. In the case of enemy units overwhelming the allied army, the PCs may win every battle, yet their allies will be decimated.)
If the outcome is in question, I use the difference to decide how many tactical combats the PCs must win in order for their allied army to achieve its objective.
Please keep in mind that the mass combat rules are only to approximate such things and tend to have odd, skewed results.
Pathfinder is best used to focus on small tactical combat (group of PCs against 1-dozens of opponents). Simulating vast armies against a lone, high CR creature can be done. This tends to take away the roleplaying opportunities for PCs.
I prefer to use mass combat rules to thumbnail when a battle the PCs are in is overwhelming - i.e., the decisions PCs make may aid their own survival, yet do not affect the outcome of the battle (in the case of allied unit overwhelming the enemy, PCs can sit, relax, and watch without fear of loss. In the case of enemy units overwhelming the allied army, the PCs may win every battle, yet their allies will be decimated.)
If the outcome is in question, I use the difference to decide how many tactical combats the PCs must win in order for their allied army to achieve its objective.
In total agreement with you. Mass combat is best used as a backdrop to the plot with the PCs. Though with clever use of it, it can clearly affect the PC's experiece.
For instance, An army attacks the dragon so the PCs can steal an artifact from its lair while it's busy.
The army fails to kill the dragon but depending on how well the army did the PCs can have an easier time of finishing it off.
I'm not familiar with how CR translates in monster-vs-monster context. Is that supposed to mean a 50% chance of victory for either side?
Well ACR is kinda like an army's Average Party Level. And useing the CR guideline chart we can estimate how a fight against this creature will be.
In the example above the army is ACR 6 and the dragon is ACR 7.
Using the chart the encounter is CR+1 and would be considered "challenging"
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering#Step-2-Determine-CR.
The mass combat rules aren't very good at all. There is literally no way 500 lv 3 fighters could hope to win that battle. Improved invisibility, flying, haste, breath weapon that kills dozens of tightly packed soldiers per use, and a natural damage resistance that would allow the dragon to ignore the fighters' attacks?
If a kingdom has a dragon, they call up adventurers for a reason.
The mass combat rules aren't very good at all. There is literally no way 500 lv 3 fighters could hope to win that battle. Improved invisibility, flying, haste, breath weapon that kills dozens of tightly packed soldiers per use, and a natural damage resistance that would allow the dragon to ignore the fighters' attacks?
If a kingdom has a dragon, they call up adventurers for a reason.
they couldn't win anyway, unless nearly all of them had magic weapons. Its DR adds way too much to its Defense Value for them to reliabily hit.
The mass combat rules aren't very good at all. There is literally no way 500 lv 3 fighters could hope to win that battle. Improved invisibility, flying, haste, breath weapon that kills dozens of tightly packed soldiers per use, and a natural damage resistance that would allow the dragon to ignore the fighters' attacks?
If a kingdom has a dragon, they call up adventurers for a reason.
What if they add splash weapons like acid flasks? They ignore DR.
What if they add splash weapons like acid flasks? They ignore DR.The mass combat rules aren't very good at all. There is literally no way 500 lv 3 fighters could hope to win that battle. Improved invisibility, flying, haste, breath weapon that kills dozens of tightly packed soldiers per use, and a natural damage resistance that would allow the dragon to ignore the fighters' attacks?
If a kingdom has a dragon, they call up adventurers for a reason.
A mature adult red dragon can cast both improved invisibility and resist energy. So, you'd be trying to throw acid flasks at an invisible dragon flying through the air that has Acid Resistance 10.
Now, 500 3rd level Paladins... MAYBE they have a chance if there's a half dozen or so level 7 clerics or wizards there to cast dispel magic and hope one of them rolls high enough to dispel the invisibility of the dragon. The paladins then all ranged smite the dragon and there's a good chance that the 500 of them end up killing the dragon before the dragon slaughters all of them.
No it isn't. The mass combat rules simply don't support that kind of hookup and/or abuse, end of story. DM's who insist on driving square pegs into round holes will need to come up with mechanics to do so as there are none at present.
Tarrasque XP 102,400
N Fine army of one Tarrasque
hp 93; ACR 17
DV 27; OM +21, ranged...
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When you're talking about a creature that's large enough to run a dungeon inside one.....
As soon as a counterexample is produced, the goalposts move. Your "this is simply the way it is, get over it" approach frequently contradicts stated intent of the designers. You may find more success with supported arguments.
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The designers put forth the tarrasque as a completed fait accompli example. What they did not do was put rules to turn any single creature into it's own army.
Army Size: Fine
Number of Units: 1
ACR: CR of individual creature —8
You may not like the rules or feel that they inadequately address the issue of a single creature, but they most definitely cover it. Again, if you read the source material for evidence you may come to fewer incorrect conclusions.
My group and I tried the rules lately and they're merely ok.
I recently used the Mass Combat rules to scare my PCs out of charging a 600 soldier army in a pass. They are 10th level and figured "We can take them out". To avoid a long drawn out fight that would have been an exercise in futility, I just shrugged and said "Ok, we'll use the Mass Combat rules. Their ACR is 6, your groups is 3. Good luck."
Needless to say, they rethought their strategy.