Vampires, Diamond dust and negative levels.


Rules Questions


Hey!

My level 10 party fought 3 vampires, and did not do so well. Between 3 of them, they have 11 negative levels.

I wish to use a quest to provide the 15,000 worth of diamond dust they need, but don't know where in Golorion this substance can be found, created or harvested.

The Minumum cost for the cast is L17 (Cleric) x 7 (Greater Restoration) x 10 for 1190GP without the cost of the Diamond dust, which is 5000gp on top of that.

My final question is: Is there an item that prevents temporary negative levels from becoming permanent? Allowing daily rolls until they finally go away? I want to them to fight Vampires again, but this negative level business is getting them down.


You are the GM. Diamond dust can reasonably be in any city. Golarion does not have it in a specific area. Maybe a cleric has enough diamond dust already but he wont cast it until the quest is done.


It's dust. Made from diamonds. Go to a diamond mine, a jeweler, or some such and pay them. Find it in any large city or a diamond mine, I'd say.

Grand Lodge

ROAD TRIP TO THE DIAMOND MINE ON THE ELEMENTAL PLANE OF EARTH!!!
pick up some mithral and adamantine while you are there.

That or the other suggestions here.

As for the items vs negative levels, there is none I can think of off hand. However, if the PCs wanna make a job of hunting vampires, they will need to invest in vampire slaying gear. Dayfinders, extra diamond dust, +1 undead bane wooden stakes etc.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Technically, they're going to need a lot of downtime to fully heal. I believe only one permanent negative level can be removed each week.

You could drop a wand of death ward and/or restoration in the treasure somewhere. The most vampire-infested AP does this. If used wisely, it'll keep a few negative levels off... though I know it's not precisely what you wanted.

Alternatively, homebrew something. Create a minor artifact that does what you need (roll daily vs. negative levels), and have them quest for it. Maybe it produces X "diamond dust" per day for restoration purposes, or will cleanse them of negative levels once on first pickup. Use it as an opportunity to add flavor to the campaign.

Hope these ideas help.


Dafydd wrote:

ROAD TRIP TO THE DIAMOND MINE ON THE ELEMENTAL PLANE OF EARTH!!!

pick up some mithral and adamantine while you are there.

That's pretty much what I wanted to know, that there is a location somewhere where this is more common.

We play a very low income campaign setting. If a peasant makes 2sp pieces per day, and a full suit of Armour is 1500gp, then a party finding 2000GP - 5000GP per session is simply ridiculous. Every man and his dog would drop their tools and go adventuring for a few months. The party currently only has about 3800GP in the bank, and only earns a few hundred more each session.

Kalindlara wrote:

Technically, they're going to need a lot of downtime to fully heal. I believe only one permanent negative level can be removed each week.

...

You could drop a wand of death ward and/or restoration in the treasure somewhere.

Nice, I did not know of the Death Ward spell. I can make a Pendant of Deathward, and hand it out.

wraithstrike wrote:
You are the GM.

One of the two GMs in this campaign. I should always reference the material before I make stuff up, as the other guy needs to OK it.


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Mulet wrote:
Dafydd wrote:

ROAD TRIP TO THE DIAMOND MINE ON THE ELEMENTAL PLANE OF EARTH!!!

pick up some mithral and adamantine while you are there.

That's pretty much what I wanted to know, that there is a location somewhere where this is more common.

We play a very low income campaign setting. If a peasant makes 2sp pieces per day, and a full suit of Armour is 1500gp, then a party finding 2000GP - 5000GP per session is simply ridiculous. Every man and his dog would drop their tools and go adventuring for a few months. The party currently only has about 3800GP in the bank, and only earns a few hundred more each session.

The game's economy is not meant to be realistic. It is really there to give players a way to buy things. There are a few threads online on how hard it fails. No matter if you look at it from a the commoner's income or what Paizo expects you to get it fails if you really get into the details.

However since you run a low income game I would suggest that only a metropolis is likely to have a large amount of rare/expensive components such as diamond dust.

Also money is not enough motivation for someone to risk their life and not everyone has adventuring skills.

The average commoner makes about 400 gp a year*, which is actually about 1.1 gp a day or 11s p. If we are going to base economy off of those numbers then none of the higher magic items exist which is fine because nobody is really going to be able to afford to make them. Also since the game bases the prices on its current model and not what commoners make then in actuality the price of the components would match what the economy can produce. Otherwise the math just kills the concept of certain things have the current book pricing. So if your current playstyle is mostly based on math then you will have to reprice a lot of things to be accurate. If you just want a gritty playstyle then carry on. :)

*I have seen this math in several places online. I guess I should check it however.
Bob the farmer
1 rank in profession farming +3 for class skill =4
masterwork tool gives another +2
So we are at a 6. He likely has at least 2 kids so they are aiding another for another 4.
Now we have a 10.
I won't even assume he has a high wisdom. I will say he just has a 10.

So he takes 10 on this and gets a 20

Quote:
You can earn half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work.

Half of 20 is 10.

10 x 4 week =40 per month
40 x 12 months = 480

Not that I did not give wisdom a high score or use skill focus

So now 480/365=1.3 gold per day

Now if you are untrained(no ranks in profession) then you earn 1sp per day, not even 2.

Gets tired of typing and decides to not go into the break down of how bad the game is at representing an actual economy, mostly because it is way off-topic.

Anyway I just wanted to present some information.


wraithstrike wrote:
...

Thank you for the correction. I'mma add this to my DM quick reference charts.

If I remove the peasant taking 12 weeks off work a year, because life is hard presumably, then it would take 2.3 years to earn enough Diamond dust to fix the party up.

This here adjusts my perspective much more. I'll make diamond dust available in 100gp baggies in Magnimar, and the quest for 1500gp of it only an option.


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Ooooh... if you're going on a 'low income' realism kind of game... Then I would HIGHLY recommend adjusting that material component somewhat... It is kind of there with an expectation that PCs can FIND that kind of money... if they can't, then this may well cripple the game.

As for locations?? Diamonds are diamonds... any mountain could have mine pop up. Diamonds are bought in cities... but they are dug up just about anywhere... and honestly '15000'wouldn't REALLY be that many 'good quality' diamonds anyway... May be able to find them all in a necklace or couple rings or something...

Liberty's Edge

Your problem:

1) as long as the negative levels haven't become permanent a single restoration is enough to remove all of them from a character.
So 100 gp of diamond dust for each character and a level 4 spell.

2)

Ultimate Equipment wrote:

Soul Stimulant

Price 300 gp; Weight —

This soothing elixir was created to counter the energy-draining effects of vampires, wights, and similar horrible creatures. If you have a negative level (whether temporary or permanent), you can drink a dose of soul stimulant, negating the negative level's penalty for 12 hours. You can only benefit from 1 dose of soul stimulant at a time, though you can continue to take a dose every 12 hours to stave off the negative level's effects.

- * -

Mulet wrote:
We play a very low income campaign setting. If a peasant makes 2sp pieces per day, and a full suit of Armour is 1500gp, then a party finding 2000GP - 5000GP per session is simply ridiculous. Every man and his dog would drop their tools and go adventuring for a few months. The party currently only has about 3800GP in the bank, and only earns a few hundred more each session.

Why we aren't all bank robbers? The successful one make more money than most salary man.

Because the majority of them end in prison, die or steal a pitiful sum.

While adventuring you risk to die every moment, and the average PC is way better than the average NPC at it. That is why everyone and his dog don't leave working at home to become an adventurer.

That said:
"a peasant makes 2sp pieces per day" is a fallacy in this game.
The rules say:

PRD wrote:

Hireling, Trained: The amount given is the typical daily wage for mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, cooks, scribes, teamsters, and other trained hirelings. This value represents a minimum wage; many such hirelings require significantly higher pay.

Hireling, Untrained: The amount shown is the typical daily wage for laborers, maids, and other menial workers.

Minimum wages for minimum training NPC. Typical earning are:

craft You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work.
profession: You can earn half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work.

Crafting can be done untrained. A average person taking 10 earn 5 gp/week.

A mercenary would have 1 rank in profession (soldier) and earn 7 gp/week.

And so on.

Essentially, an average guy will earn way more than 4 gp/month (if you read Ultimate Campaign, we are assumed to work for 5 days during a week).

Check the wealth by level part of the rules. If you reduce the money available to the PC you either have to drop the gear they need, being careful to drop what they need, not what you find interesting or appropriate for their enemies or you need to adjust the CR of the encounters.
Fighting several low level mooks while under geared generally isn't a problem. Even big bruisers aren't a big problem.
Creatures like a vampire, with tons of abilities and options? That is a big problem.

If the PC are undergeared people with weak will saves will fall prey to the dominate ability. Those with a weak fortitude save will lose their levels with ease.
All will be hit easily.


Mulet wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
...

Thank you for the correction. I'mma add this to my DM quick reference charts.

If I remove the peasant taking 12 weeks off work a year, because life is hard presumably, then it would take 2.3 years to earn enough Diamond dust to fix the party up.

This here adjusts my perspective much more. I'll make diamond dust available in 100gp baggies in Magnimar, and the quest for 1500gp of it only an option.

If you don't want to give the money out then I think the idea of doing a quest in order to get the levels removed would work. That way you don't have your party walking around with a lot of loot, and they get fixed up. If they ask why someone as power as the NPC can not do the quest, then you can have him otherwise engaged. Maybe a more serious threat, at least in his opinion, needs to be taken care of.

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:
The average commoner makes about 400 gp a year*, which is actually about 1.1 gp a day or 11s p. If we are going to base economy off of those numbers then none of the higher magic items exist which is fine because nobody is really going to be able to afford to make them

The average salaryman makes about 20.000 € in a year (after taxes and so on). That don't mean that Ferrari cars or people spending 1 million dollars to get a custom made telephoto lens don't exist.


Diego Rossi wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
The average commoner makes about 400 gp a year*, which is actually about 1.1 gp a day or 11s p. If we are going to base economy off of those numbers then none of the higher magic items exist which is fine because nobody is really going to be able to afford to make them
The average salaryman makes about 20.000 € in a year (after taxes and so on). That don't mean that Ferrari cars or people spending 1 million dollars to get a custom made telephoto lens don't exist.

I thought I had erased that part, but since I didn't....

Yeah, but there are people who can afford the car. If you use their low wealth rules nobody(a much smaller number of people than is intended by the rules) is buying the 200000 gp magic item. Ok, you might have an elf who has lived for a long time, but well you get the point.

Liberty's Edge

That is exactly what I meant. My playing group has ballparked the buying power of 1 GP to 50 € (or 50 $, it is near enough for this kind of calculations). So a yearly income of 400 gp is about 20.000 €/$.
It is on the lowish side of the normal income for a single worker and enough to own a car, rent or own a house and live decently.

In the same you have people that live with 500 €/month, the equivalent of a guy getting about 3 sp/day and people that get a 50.000 €/month salary (about 1.000 gp) as an employee. Self employed people or entrepreneurs can get several orders of magnitude more or even less that those figures.

I think that the world of Golarion see the same wide range of wealth and earnings.
The PC are in the entrepreneurs part of the equation. If their activity go well they can earn large sums of money. If it go badly thy die or become broke.


Instead of questing for a particular artifact, perhaps you could have them quest for a replacement material component. Something like 'powdered life' or other such macguffin, that works as X amount of diamond dust. And wherever they get it from only has just enough for their purposes.

This allows you to add the component in such a way to maintain the restricted wealth. You can decide if the person who sent them on their quest has the stuff, or they're on a quest to a known supply of it somewhere. Possibly extraplanar.


Mulet wrote:

My final question is: Is there an item that prevents temporary negative levels from becoming permanent? Allowing daily rolls until they finally go away? I want to them to fight Vampires again, but this negative level business is getting them down.

Another more simple solution... don't use 'permanent' negative levels. Let them regain them as if they were temporary... whatever that rule is again >.<

Something like 1 a day or needing to cast lesser restoration or something is still a serious drawback in the middle of a fight, but afterwards... you can get the game back on track with a little R&R... which after that battle, I'd say the heroes earned :P

This is especially true if you want them to fight vampires again... Anything with THAT big of a penalty to fight... most GMs would now say they were taught a lesson and that they should have run away. If that's not the lesson you're trying to teach... let them solve the penalty without a massive derail.

Dropping from level 10 to level 3... is NOT something I would want to play for too long a time. especially if you've got some random encounters set up that makes them easy pickings ;)

Liberty's Edge

phantom1592 wrote:
Dropping from level 10 to level 3... is NOT something I would want to play for too long a time. especially if you've got some random encounters set up that makes them easy pickings ;)

In Pathfinder the permanent loss of a level is different from 3.X. You never actually lose the level or the XP, but you get some serious penalties to everything you do.

Grand Lodge

My suggestion of road trip to the elemental plane of earth was by no means the only way to get diamond dust. Only 1 of many possibilities.

Level 10, the party is supposedly going to begin to have trouble finding appropriate challenges on the material plane. Plane hopping is sort of an inevitability in the game as the strongest creatures (not including dragons) tend to be outsiders.

A fun way to introduce this to the party is taking a trip to a low level area of another plane. They can begin to explore their world and the many facets of it.


Diego Rossi wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
Dropping from level 10 to level 3... is NOT something I would want to play for too long a time. especially if you've got some random encounters set up that makes them easy pickings ;)
In Pathfinder the permanent loss of a level is different from 3.X. You never actually lose the level or the XP, but you get some serious penalties to everything you do.

Arguably worse.

What is that -7 to every time you roll a d20? -35 hit points off the total?

At least in 2E you never lost abilities faster then you gained them...


*Rabble Rabble*

Low income games bad!

*rabble rabble*

Okay, that's outta the way. Diamond dust...it's wherever. Theoretically any mage with access to 5th level spells should be able to scry a location, teleport there, and fabricate all the diamond dust s/he'd ever need, or even just take a huge pile of carbon (ash, graphite, whatever) and Fabricate diamonds for free. Realism gets you lost in madness very, very quickly.

So, what's the game setup? Well it's expensive, so that casting those spells is a hassle. How much of a hassle should it be? That's up to the GM. A quest is a good simple option, though it needs to be a weak one since the gang is weakened. But here's how my old 2nd ed. batch of low-levels always ended up getting their resurrections paid for: first you get brought back, THEN you have to complete the Geas/quest that was put on you as part of the resurrection.

One really annoying quest later (or just really disgusting) the geas is up and the adventure goes on.


boring7 wrote:
Okay, that's outta the way. Diamond dust...it's wherever. Theoretically any mage with access to 5th level spells should be able to scry a location, teleport there, and fabricate all the diamond dust s/he'd ever need, or even just take a huge pile of carbon (ash, graphite, whatever) and Fabricate diamonds for free. Realism gets you lost in madness very, very quickly. [Emphasis added]

Without trying to restart some very long arguments from previous threads (that I sat with some popcorn and watched) ... this should be beyond the reach of a Fabricate spell.

Changing 'graphite into diamonds' is basically the same as changing 'changing table sugar into diamonds and water.' They're not the same material, which is the requirement of the spell. Yes, 'material' is a little ambiguous, but defining it as 'the same atoms,' gets you into crazy-land pretty quickly too.


Cheburn wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Okay, that's outta the way. Diamond dust...it's wherever. Theoretically any mage with access to 5th level spells should be able to scry a location, teleport there, and fabricate all the diamond dust s/he'd ever need, or even just take a huge pile of carbon (ash, graphite, whatever) and Fabricate diamonds for free. Realism gets you lost in madness very, very quickly. [Emphasis added]

Without trying to restart some very long arguments from previous threads (that I sat with some popcorn and watched) ... this should be beyond the reach of a Fabricate spell.

Changing 'graphite into diamonds' is basically the same as changing 'changing table sugar into diamonds and water.' They're not the same material, which is the requirement of the spell. Yes, 'material' is a little ambiguous, but defining it as 'the same atoms,' gets you into crazy-land pretty quickly too.

Like I said, lost in madness.

Liberty's Edge

phantom1592 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
Dropping from level 10 to level 3... is NOT something I would want to play for too long a time. especially if you've got some random encounters set up that makes them easy pickings ;)
In Pathfinder the permanent loss of a level is different from 3.X. You never actually lose the level or the XP, but you get some serious penalties to everything you do.

Arguably worse.

What is that -7 to every time you roll a d20? -35 hit points off the total?

At least in 2E you never lost abilities faster then you gained them...

The penalties are removable, you don't need to track different XP gaining rates and you don't lose feat, skills, spell slots, spells, animal companion, etc.

Sure, if you have got 7 permanent negative levels you are in dire straits, but that is very hard to achieve as:

1) You need to be at least level 8 to get them and survive, so you have good chances to have access to restoration

2) You roll your saves after 24 hours, so it is almost guaranteed that the spellcasters in the group had the chance to rest and recover their spells. Divine casters don't even need to rest to recover spells.

3) If cast before you accrue the negative levels restoration cost only 100 gp and remove all the negative levels.

4) A scroll of restoration or a NPC cleric casting restoration don't cost so much.

5) If all else fail, you can try to increase the saving throw bonus of the guy with the negative levels. I wouldn't allow that with round or minutes/level spells, but spells with a duration of 10 minutes/level or more will work.
Falling all 7 saves is fairly improbable unless your fortitude save is very bad. Even if you save only with a 20 you have only a 70% chance of falling all the saves. If you save with 18 you have a 32% chance of falling all the saves.

Essentially, you need a sadistic GM or a lot of collaboration by the players to get 7 permanent negative levels.

Liberty's Edge

boring7 wrote:

*Rabble Rabble*

Low income games bad!

*rabble rabble*

Okay, that's outta the way. Diamond dust...it's wherever. Theoretically any mage with access to 5th level spells should be able to scry a location, teleport there, and fabricate all the diamond dust s/he'd ever need, or even just take a huge pile of carbon (ash, graphite, whatever) and Fabricate diamonds for free. Realism gets you lost in madness very, very quickly.

So, what's the game setup? Well it's expensive, so that casting those spells is a hassle. How much of a hassle should it be? That's up to the GM. A quest is a good simple option, though it needs to be a weak one since the gang is weakened. But here's how my old 2nd ed. batch of low-levels always ended up getting their resurrections paid for: first you get brought back, THEN you have to complete the Geas/quest that was put on you as part of the resurrection.

One really annoying quest later (or just really disgusting) the geas is up and the adventure goes on.

And what skill are you using?

To fabricate artificial diamonds (they are even good for spell use? Questionable) you need the appropriate crafting skill:
PRD wrote:
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

and the ability to succeed at a crafting check.

Modern processes give the equivalent of a huge crafting bonus. Probably the in game check to craft them would be aroudn100 or more.

It not a mater of player insanity if you have someone attempting this.

And you can't scry a location, you can only scry a person.


phantom1592 wrote:
Mulet wrote:

My final question is: Is there an item that prevents temporary negative levels from becoming permanent? Allowing daily rolls until they finally go away? I want to them to fight Vampires again, but this negative level business is getting them down.

Another more simple solution... don't use 'permanent' negative levels. Let them regain them as if they were temporary... whatever that rule is again >.<

Something like 1 a day or needing to cast lesser restoration or something is still a serious drawback in the middle of a fight, but afterwards... you can get the game back on track with a little R&R... which after that battle, I'd say the heroes earned :P

This is especially true if you want them to fight vampires again... Anything with THAT big of a penalty to fight... most GMs would now say they were taught a lesson and that they should have run away. If that's not the lesson you're trying to teach... let them solve the penalty without a massive derail.

Dropping from level 10 to level 3... is NOT something I would want to play for too long a time. especially if you've got some random encounters set up that makes them easy pickings ;)

Treating them like babies by using house rules is not the solution. Finding in game rules, resources and locations is. I've often house ruled things in their favour, and now I've got a soft party that barely thinks about the problems I create for them to solve.

They get upset if their level 10 characters fight anything with an AC of 20 or higher.


Diego Rossi wrote:

And what skill are you using?

To fabricate artificial diamonds (they are even good for spell use? Questionable) you need the appropriate crafting skill:
PRD wrote:
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

and the ability to succeed at a crafting check.

Modern processes give the equivalent of a huge crafting bonus. Probably the in game check to craft them would be aroudn100 or more.

You're welcome to house-rule that, but there's some pretty good "realism" arguments against it. I'm trying to AVOID delving into the inherent madness of diamonds as valuable objects (it is literally a global conspiracy) so I'm forcing myself to stop there.

Diego Rossi wrote:
And you can't scry a location, you can only scry a person.

You can scry on "a creature nearest a lot of raw diamond," you can use Locate object to find a clearly-visualized chunk of raw diamond within long range (works like a really strong metal detector) and if you get all the way to Legend Lore you can find pretty much anything with repeated castings. Summoned or bound Earth Elementals can do the collecting without even getting your hands dirty.

Simply put, diamonds are hard to find because the GM says they're hard to find because the spells are supposed to be expensive to cast. Anything else is window-dressing for that underlying trope. It's the same as why a wizard with Fabricate can't just print money by mass-manufacturing ships or mass-producing continual flame torches (summon or bind a lantern archon, tell him to get to work) and buying whatever she needs with the money.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mulet wrote:

Hey!

My level 10 party fought 3 vampires, and did not do so well. Between 3 of them, they have 11 negative levels.

I wish to use a quest to provide the 15,000 worth of diamond dust they need, but don't know where in Golorion this substance can be found, created or harvested.

The Minumum cost for the cast is L17 (Cleric) x 7 (Greater Restoration) x 10 for 1190GP without the cost of the Diamond dust, which is 5000gp on top of that.

My final question is: Is there an item that prevents temporary negative levels from becoming permanent? Allowing daily rolls until they finally go away? I want to them to fight Vampires again, but this negative level business is getting them down.

There are cleric spells that protect against negative energy attacks. Death Ward, I think?


Mulet wrote:


Treating them like babies by using house rules is not the solution. Finding in game rules, resources and locations is. I've often house ruled things in their favour, and now I've got a soft party that barely thinks about the problems I create for them to solve.

They get upset if their level 10 characters fight anything with an AC of 20 or higher.

Well, it seems that house rules are what caused the problem is all. Nothing wrong with a House rule solving it. If as a DM your goal is to NOT have the game screech to a halt from something... then don't use it.

It's really an easier solution then hijacking the story for a few weeks/months traveling to the elemental plane of earth or whatnot...

All depends on playstyle. There needs to be a massive rash of bad luck for those temporary levels to become permanent ANYWAY... so by the rules, MOST of the time they come back naturally anyway. If you don't want to deal with the corner case of 'one bad roll' then get back to the story you had planned.

There are a lot of threads out here about 'appropriate CRs' and whether the players should EXPECT to win or if they should be expecting to run.

This encounter taught them that Vampires suck, and they screw you over for a LONG time... It is REALLY a good idea to stay as far away as possible.

If that is NOT the lesson you wanted to teach... then some reevaluating may be in order.

Liberty's Edge

boring7 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

And what skill are you using?

To fabricate artificial diamonds (they are even good for spell use? Questionable) you need the appropriate crafting skill:
PRD wrote:
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

and the ability to succeed at a crafting check.

Modern processes give the equivalent of a huge crafting bonus. Probably the in game check to craft them would be aroudn100 or more.

You're welcome to house-rule that, but there's some pretty good "realism" arguments against it. I'm trying to AVOID delving into the inherent madness of diamonds as valuable objects (it is literally a global conspiracy) so I'm forcing myself to stop there.

Diego Rossi wrote:
And you can't scry a location, you can only scry a person.

You can scry on "a creature nearest a lot of raw diamond," you can use Locate object to find a clearly-visualized chunk of raw diamond within long range (works like a really strong metal detector) and if you get all the way to Legend Lore you can find pretty much anything with repeated castings. Summoned or bound Earth Elementals can do the collecting without even getting your hands dirty.

Simply put, diamonds are hard to find because the GM says they're hard to find because the spells are supposed to be expensive to cast. Anything else is window-dressing for that underlying trope. It's the same as why a wizard with Fabricate can't just print money by mass-manufacturing ships or mass-producing continual flame torches (summon or bind a lantern archon, tell him to get to work) and buying whatever she needs with the money.

I know the whole diamond discussion, great advertising campaign, but not so relevant in our setting.

Said that, you can't "scry on a creature nearest a lot of raw diamond,". You need to know the target of your scry spell or have some connection with him. Same thing for a crystal ball and the other ways to scry someone.

Liberty's Edge

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Mulet wrote:


Treating them like babies by using house rules is not the solution. Finding in game rules, resources and locations is. I've often house ruled things in their favour, and now I've got a soft party that barely thinks about the problems I create for them to solve.

They get upset if their level 10 characters fight anything with an AC of 20 or higher.

You have houseruled that they should be under geared for their level and you are surprised that they try to avoid problems?

A NPC that use gear usually has half of the Wealth by level of a normal PC of his level. Increasing that WBL to that of a PC of his level increase the CR by 1.
If, as it seem from your posts, you are reducing the equipment of the PC to a fraction of what is normal, the effect is that the capability of the PC to fight equal level NPC is reduced.

To make an example, a 10 level fighter with appropriate level gear can have an AC of 32, +19 to hit on his first attack, a damage of 1d8+10 and 114 hp. Saves 13/7/7. (taken from an actual character played from level 1 to 10)

What are the stats of your players?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

To fabricate artificial diamonds (they are even good for spell use? Questionable) you need the appropriate crafting skill:

If you're going to do it by hand, you also need a few million years. Or Numerian tech.

Grand Lodge

I'm still trying to figure out what Crafting skill it is to make diamonds. For one thing, all you need is unrefined diamond dust, nothing faceted or improved, at all, so Craft (Jewelry) wouldn't be needed, you aren't making jewelry grade diamonds. I don't see needing a high degree of craftsmanship, really.

No moving parts, not going for anything fancy in the diamonds, just a pile of raw diamond dust.

Possibilities:
Craft (jewelry)
Profession (miner)
Knowledge (engineering) - nope, that is you were to look for someplace to mine diamonds, although that would also fall under Knowledge (nature).

Craft (forgery)?

Of course, the easiest solution would, probably, be Blood Money, after all.


kinevon wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what Crafting skill it is to make diamonds. For one thing, all you need is unrefined diamond dust, nothing faceted or improved, at all, so Craft (Jewelry) wouldn't be needed, you aren't making jewelry grade diamonds.

If you're starting with a bigger diamond, you don't need a Craft skill, you just need a strong hammer. If you're starting with something else, like a lump of coal, no Craft skill is going to help you.


Wealthy jeweller asks party to clean his gem cutting room from all the dust that accumulated (wow, that is a stretch)


I don't think I would ever push for a 'craft' check involving diamonds...

However, as devil's advocate... I have heard of 'raw diamonds' not being too valuable till they are worked down and prettied up... so probably jeweler could take a 1000 gp diamond and turn it into a 1500gp diamond...


phantom1592 wrote:

I don't think I would ever push for a 'craft' check involving diamonds...

However, as devil's advocate... I have heard of 'raw diamonds' not being too valuable till they are worked down and prettied up... so probably jeweler could take a 1000 gp diamond and turn it into a 1500gp diamond...

Or alchemy to grind up 40 cheapo junk diamonds for 400 gold and grow them into one really big diamond that (after cutting) was worth 20,000 gold. Using acid to melt it down and then precipitate it from a seed crystal or something. Hell, there's a guy who made a diamond (however tiny) in his home microwave using pencil lead. TELL me magic alchemy that reanimates dead bodies can't do better.

Or magic, it's a pretty severe house rule to say you can't use Stone Shape (multiple castings) to graft 40 tiny, cracked and chipped diamonds into 1 big flawless one that a skilled gemcutter can shave down into a proper sparkly shape with a DC 15 check. And it's still more reasonable than the Peasant Rail Gun.

But that's realism, we're talking narrative and game rules. You could just as easily say the Restoration component has to be magical sap from a magic tree, or the diamond bones of an Earth Elemental, or the shavings of a Moon Elk's discarded antlers. It's a macguffin, how hard you want the component to be is how hard it is.

Liberty's Edge

boring7 wrote:

Or magic, it's a pretty severe house rule to say you can't use Stone Shape (multiple castings) to graft 40 tiny, cracked and chipped diamonds into 1 big flawless one that a skilled gemcutter can shave down into a proper sparkly shape with a DC 15 check. And it's still more reasonable than the Peasant Rail Gun.

PRD - Stone shape wrote:
You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose.

Something there about gluing together different pieces of stone?

Before saying that something is a house rule it is a good idea to read the actual rule.


Inquisitors of Pharasma show up investigating the demise of three notorious and wanted vampires. Church is impressed with adventurers.

Opportunity is offered to "finish the job" by traveling to the astral plane to eliminate the villain holding those vampires souls (because magic). Adventurers bodies will be kept safe and negative levels removed in the meantime-- using artifact unique to that particular church.

-solves problem
-makes new friends
-exciting new adventure


Diego Rossi wrote:
boring7 wrote:

Or magic, it's a pretty severe house rule to say you can't use Stone Shape (multiple castings) to graft 40 tiny, cracked and chipped diamonds into 1 big flawless one that a skilled gemcutter can shave down into a proper sparkly shape with a DC 15 check. And it's still more reasonable than the Peasant Rail Gun.

PRD - Stone shape wrote:
You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose.

Something there about gluing together different pieces of stone?

Just the text you quoted.

And scrying still works.

And all the other divination spells totally work.

But feel free to keep piling on that passive aggression.

Liberty's Edge

boring7 wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
boring7 wrote:

Or magic, it's a pretty severe house rule to say you can't use Stone Shape (multiple castings) to graft 40 tiny, cracked and chipped diamonds into 1 big flawless one that a skilled gemcutter can shave down into a proper sparkly shape with a DC 15 check. And it's still more reasonable than the Peasant Rail Gun.

PRD - Stone shape wrote:
You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose.

Something there about gluing together different pieces of stone?

Just the text you quoted.

And scrying still works.

And all the other divination spells totally work.

But feel free to keep piling on that passive aggression.

LOL, cheap debate trick. "You point out my errors, so you are passive aggressive."

So several pieces of stones are an "existing piece of stone"? And "Target stone or stone object touched, up to 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level" mean stone[s]?

And "Knowledge None* *You must have some sort of connection (see below) to a creature of which you have no knowledge."
"Connection Will Save Modifier
Likeness or picture –2
Possession or garment –4
Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, etc. –10"
mean "I can scry on someone I don't know"?

Please, read the rules before giving your version in the Rule forum.
You can give your interpretation of them or your houserules, but first you must know how they work.

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