Goblin Squad Member
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Background
In my spare time in the last week I did some gathering in the north, with the intention to get pine logs and coal for my crafting alt living in the south.
After a very unsuccessful attempt in the hills I started keeping track of what I was gathering, here are the initial results and some consideration on them.
Character stats
Human, wearing +0 light armor, Pioneer armor at 4, strong back at 2
Miner 4
Forester 6
Dowser 4
Miner 4
FIRST TRY
Results
All the gathering was done in the plains and forest area just south of the hills in the NE corner of the map, mostly the row of hexes running from the eastern corner of TK to the 6 hex south from the right high corner of the map (hex 2906 if we were reading a boardgame map).
I did spent time killing the easy mobs.
Time spent: 2 and a half hours.
Nodes harvested: not tracked
Lamp oil 2
perfect bloodstone 1
perfect chrysoprase 1
perfect moonstone 2
perfect tigereye 1
potent dragoon leaves 4
potent foxfire 3
potent laurel leaves 13
potent smoke peppers 2
smooth animal pelt 4
smooth beast pelt 6
smooth pine log 8
smooth yew sapling 2
true coal 5
uncanny esoteric essence 60
SECOND TRY
Character stats
Forester 7
Results
All the gathering was done in the wooded area between Thornkeep and Freevale.
I did spent time killing the easy mobs.
Time spent
A bit more than 2 hours.
Nodes harvested:
34 essence
34 middens
36 plant
infused chickweed 1
Infused Coltsfoot 2
Lamp oil 2
Infused Tansy leaves 2
Intact moonstone 1
perfect bloodstone 1
perfect Onyx 9
Potent Buckthorn 1
potent dreamgloow 10
potent Hyssop 29
potent neversleep sap 5
potent smoke peppers 14
potent Tansy leaves 25
potent Welds leaves 3
smooth animal pelt 6
smooth beast pelt 3
smooth pine log 5
smooth yew sapling 7
superior hemp 2
superior wool 23
true coal 30
true iron 13
uncanny esoteric essence 84
Tier 2
Potent Pitcher plant sap 5
Smooth Maple sapling 2
Some consideration
My primary goal was to gather logs for my sawyer alt.
The result is negative, more than 4 hours of gathering and I have got, at most enough wood for him to work for a few minutes.
Secondary goal: gathering coal. Here we have got better results. but in a strange way, as I was able to gather way more coal in the trash heaps than searching for the same time (more than 4 hours) in the hills (only 10 units of coal).
Instead I have got a good number of materials that are useful to other crafting professions.
If we had a good market that wouldn't be a problem, I would be capable to trade those materials for the ones I want (but still there would be some problem as the logs numbers seem low when compared to those used by the different recipes), but currently the market utility is low.
Dropping the unwanted items to reduce my load would have increased my endurance on the field a bit, but with the current respawning mechanic for the materials, I would have damaged the whole crafter businesses as I would have removed those items from general availability, depleting the local resources without getting any utility from that.
Conclusion
Total numbers seem right, the problem is our inability to influence them.
My aim is to get logs and instead I get 29 units of potent Hyssop and 25 of potent Tansy leaves. AFAIK I have no way to influence those numbers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've told you this before, if you aren't finding what you want you need to go to a different part of the map, not just a handful of hexes away. Instead of continuing to beat your head against a wall searching for Pine in the East perhaps you should go West. Not sure I can be much clearer.
It's great that you are recording the mats found in that region. Hold onto that info, it may come in handy later. Even better, if you decide to record what you find in the future you can do it per hex and record that info in the spreadsheet found here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you are confused? I'm not aware of any hills in the north east. It is all mountains. The hills are yellowish on the map and the vast majority are in the north west.
Edit: Some of your better luck the second time might be because there is an actual hill hex NE of Freevale.
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Goblinworks Lead Game Designer
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Thanks for the info!
If you are specifically looking for wood some areas have more wood in proportion to herbs than others, so it's a good idea to move around across a wide area. For example, if you go more to the northern center of the map you'll likely find more wood.
There aren't hills in the NE to speak of aside from one hex near the old Ossian's Crossing location. If you want coal, the NW corner is the place to go.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So those in the NE are mountains. The map lack clear labels for the terrain depicted and the terrain icon aren't so clear.
I would read the terrain icons as Forested rough or forested hills in a boardgame.
@ Ravenlute
You have missed completely the point.
First it is a gathering survey. If I have found what I am searching for or not is secondary. What I am trying to report is what can be found, then Lee can see if it is what he expect us to find or not.
Second, the problem, as I see it, is that we don't have a way to prioritize what we are gathering.
I have a decent forester skill. I want logs. I get tons of herbs.
Beside knowing the exact hexes where logs are abundant there is no way to say "I am trying to gather logs, not herbs."
And a forest seem a good location to find wood.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would read the terrain icons as Forested rough or forested hills in a boardgame.I take it when you talk about terrain icons you think of the icons at the top-left of the minimap, next to the escalation icons? Because those are commonly mistaken as an indication of terrain type, when that's not what they actually mean. The "forested hill" icon is an indication that you are currently in a wilderness hex (i.e. not npc-controlled, nor a monster hex). You could get the same icon in the plains down in the south-west corner.
Cal (quoting Nihimon, but I'm unable to find that original post) has previously explained this here .
Reading the hex coloring of the in game map, in most wargames I would think:
- mostly brown terrain with splotches of green: rough or hills, the presence of green generally mean that it is forested;- light green, no other icons: plains
- even lighter green (but no dark green anywhere) marshes?
- brownish yellow with green splotches, marshes (but then what is the lighter green? plains and the green hexes forest? Why not the usual dark green or trees icons for forests?)
- yellow with green squares and rows: farmland.
Sample boardgame maps:
Settlers of Catan
Savage Station
or, best example
US map hexographer
You look them, you recognize the terrain types with ease. The current minimap don't give that kind of information.
This is a good map of PFO where you recognize the different kind of terrain and you get a legend for them, but I had to hunt the forum for 40 minutes to find it while writing this post.
It is not something that you will consult while playing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And to give people some further information, here's what the hexes produce. Note Bulk materials are used in making settlement structures, not crafting items, and represent large quantities of goods. They will be difficult to transport long distances due to encumbrance, so you want them made nearby or guarded heavily. Also essences are components used in making magic items. There are three progressions of essences, each of which is found in two terrain types (Woodlands and Swamps, Croplands and Water, Mountains and Highlands).
Croplands: All the Bulk Food you will ever need, some Bulk Trade Goods, lots of herbs, the best at cloth, essences,
Woodlands: The best at Bulk Wood, some Bulk Food (from hunting wild game), very little Bulk Ore, the best at wood, lots of herbs, leather, essences
Highlands: The best at Bulk Stone, moderate Bulk Iron, a little Bulk Food and Bulk Trade goods, mineral chemicals (brimstone and such), some herbs, coal/copper/gold, gems
Mountains: The best at Bulk Iron, lots of BulkStone, very little Bulk Trade Goods and Bulk Food, essences, some mineral chemicals, a few herbs, iron/silver/platinum, gems
Swamplands: Moderate amounts of Bulk Food, Iron, Wood, and Trade Goods, essences, mineral chemicals, herbs, leather
Water: Lots of Bulk Food and Trade Goods, essences, pearls, a few herbs in large quantity
Brokenlands: No bulk materials (POIs cannot be built here), essences, mineral chemicals, gems, lots of metals
"Woodland: the best at wood, lots of herbs, leather, essences "
and"Croplands: lots of herbs, the best at cloth, essences"
By the above I would have thought find more wood than herbs in the woodlands. I suspect that the different kinds of herbs is so large that we are guaranteed to get some them from every plant node, even if the chance for a singular kind of herb is low, while we have 2 kinds of tier 1 wood and 2 kinds of tier 2 wood, so it is way easier to find a herb only plant node in a wooded area than a logs only node (actually I have found plenty of herbs only nodes, only 1 logs only node in the recent explorations).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a lot of us who were intensely involved in the landrush make a lot of assumptions about what's obvious.
My favourite map is this one from (Cheatle? and company?)
For pure alliance politics, there's one courtesy of the Aeonian League (Though I a tiny, OCD, part of me wishes they'd named themselves the Aeiounian League, so that their name would start with all the standard vowels in order.)
Finally, I use this one only really because it has the road names and a couple of landmark names.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Ravenlute
You have missed completely the point.
You started off the thread saying, "with the intention to get pine logs and coal" so your point wasn't as clear as you'd hoped. Since it looks more like you were trying to show that there was an imbalance of herbs vs wood in Forest tiles than that's different and you did just fine.
It really is about finding the exact hexes that drop the certain resources from what I've found. For example, while searching for beast pelts there were a few particular crop hexes that had plenty of them while other crop hexes had none at all. That's why information in that spreadsheet I linked would be helpful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Ravenlute
You have missed completely the point.You started off the thread saying, "with the intention to get pine logs and coal" so your point wasn't as clear as you'd hoped. Since it looks more like you were trying to show that there was an imbalance of herbs vs wood in Forest tiles than that's different and you did just fine.
It really is about finding the exact hexes that drop the certain resources from what I've found. For example, while searching for beast pelts there were a few particular crop hexes that had plenty of them while other crop hexes had none at all. That's why information in that spreadsheet I linked would be helpful.
Missed the labels?
Backgroundseem very clear. It give the background for what I did, i.e. tracking what I was getting.
Some consideration
give my opinion on what I found.
Redoing that:
First try
22 units of herbs, 10 units of logs.
Proportions seem right as we have 4 kinds of herbs against 2 kinds of logs.
Sadly I wasn't tracking the number of nodes at the time because, from what I remember, the plant nodes were relatively rare against the number of the other nodes. The essence nodes seemed very abundant.
For the second try I still think it counter deductive to get 92 units of herbs against 12 units of wood in a forest. Discarding the T2 that can be misleading as I have barely the skill to get them, almost a 8 to 1 ratio.
Or we can consider the how common are the different materials gathered in the plant nodes:
Herbs 29, 25, 14, 10, 5, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 5 (T2)
Wood: 7, 5, 2(T2)
The second set of number give us some interesting information: 10 kind of herds against 2 kinds of wood (or 11:3 if we consider the T2).
So I would anticipate something in that range, a 3:1 ratio. In a forested area with a shortfall of logs I would not be surprised by a 5:1 ration, not 7.7:1 or 6.9:1 if we consider the T2s.
Sure, it is a limited survey and getting informations from other people will be extremely useful, but Lee can compare what I have got against the numbers he expect. If the discrepancy is large he can try monitoring those numbers.
Maybe having 10 different kind of T1 herbs mean that, as a group, they regenerate faster than the wood?
Conclusion
The goal is to make crafting a viable profession.
I think that those numbers rise some doubt, at least until the AH is more useful.
Sure, I can exchange what I gather with other people in my settlement. After lugging it for half the map.
Oops, encumbrance is in, so I can lug around only so much (thankfully now TK has the freeholder and Expert trainers).
Thinking about EE I see a bunch of people that will need good equipment, a very fast depleting of the local resources and a long time with weak items while we try to gather what we need while the nodes regrowth at a low rate (as they have been depleted).
Every new wave of newcomers will deplete the local nodes and be very disappointed by what they find.
"Move away from the starter towns." is the answer, obviously, but you think that people that hasn't played the alpha will be so ready to move away with little prior knowledge of the different companies and of the land?
And we still have the problem that some stuff can be found only in some area, so we will be traveling constantly to get what we need.
To repeat it again, a healthy AH seem a very important thing for a good EE experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Diego
Thanks for doing great work. I know when I reported an issue with gold/iron ratios that people had difficulties to understand what the issue was.
So lets look at the issues:
1) theoretical distribution (like 55% coal in the north west) - this seems to be fine
2) actual distribution - this one was wrong when I reported the iron/gold imbalance. This 'should' be rectified but I just couldn't muster the motivation to check this out. My suspicion is that it is still wrong. But it takes us many, many hours of gathering and painstaking notes to proof this. Maybe GW (Stephen) could make a database call. The number of players is so low - 90% of hexes should be on full - or I don't understand the formula.
3) Time taken to gather useful resources - discusing this point is moot if 2) is still wrong.
4) Looking at the wrong hexes - this can be solved via education. Some of it would be better labeling of hexes. But whoever said that Diego mixed up hill and mountain - he found even less iron as coal - so that isn't an explanation.
It is crucial for the economy that the theoretical and real distriution is close to each other. And it best is ensured this is the case ahead of EE.
It looks like most hexes are still out of resources (the common ones).
2Stephen - you said that you aimed for 1% regrowth / 15 minutes. Do you allow >1 pine (iron, coal) to regenerate in a 15 minute timeframe? Otherwise it is still capped at 96 (92) per day and this is the amound a single player might gather.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Woodland: the best at wood, lots of herbs, leather, essences "
and
"Croplands: lots of herbs, the best at cloth, essences"By the above I would have thought find more wood than herbs in the woodlands.
I think part of the issue may be in the way you're reading "best at". I read "best at wood" as meaning "you'll get more wood here than anywhere else", but it sounds like you may be trying to read it as "you'll get more wood here than anything else".
[Edit] And I think it's very important to remember that not all Woodlands hexes are the same, and if you're not finding the specific resources you want, you need to go elsewhere to look for them.
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Goblinworks Lead Game Designer
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2Stephen - you said that you aimed for 1% regrowth / 15 minutes. Do you allow >1 pine (iron, coal) to regenerate in a 15 minute timeframe? Otherwise it is still capped at 96 (92) per day and this is the amound a single player might gather.
Currently everything regens at 1% of full value with no cap every 15 minutes.
The core problem that people seem to be running into I think is caused by the relatively low value of herbs and how spread out wood is in the game.
So each resource in the game has a "value" when used in crafting recipes. We use the same value to figure out how many resources should be in a hex. For example, the total value of (a given resource)X(that resource value) for all the resources in an NPC hex is 330, while for a wilderness hex it is 674 (and much higher for a monster hex). A single piece of wood has a value generally 4-6 times higher than a single herb, so if a hex had an equal total value of herbs and an equal total value of wood, there would be a lot more herbs than wood in that hex.
Secondarily, there are far fewer varieties of wood in the game than herbs so they are spread over a larger area. Effectively half the Woodland hexes in the game drop Pine, and the other half Yew; this means the total value of Pine and Yew have be split up among half of the Woodland hexes each if we want wood to be found in every Woodlands hex. On the other hand, Comfrey Leaves are only found in a region or two, and so have much higher concentrations in those areas. We could change up and say wood is only found in some limited subset of forests, but that seems counter intuitive and puts a big bottleneck on controlling the wood supply.
It could be we have underestimated the total demand for wood in the game. These numbers have been continually adjusted, and probably will forever. That said, even if we doubled the amount of wood in the game, it would not mean you get a majority of wood each time you harvest a plant node.
To give everyone an idea of the ratings for hexes, here is the ratings for an NPC hex near Thornkeep (5.4 for those who care). This is relatively neutral territory that no one can control, so I don't feel bad posting it, but this is not going to be a regular thing. I'm not posting stats for any wilderness or monster hexes. Note this hex has a wider than normal cross section of resources for a Woodlands hex due to needing to get a lot of things into the hands of new players.
Esoteric Essence: 2666
Laurel Leaves: 1500
Dragoon Leaves: 550
Bloodstone: 203
Moonstone: 100
Onyx: 300
Coal: 800
Hemp: 250
Wool: 380
Animal Pelt: 210
Beast Pelt: 200
yew Sapling: 650
Pine Log: 1200
So if you were to go up to a Forester hex you would have a 650/3900 chance of getting yew, a 1200/3900 chance of getting pine, etc. These numbers change as the ratings change. Every 15 minutes there is a chance equal to (current value/original value) that the resource will increase an amount equal to 1% of it's full value. So if Pine was harvested down to 960, there would be an 80% chance of restoring 12 points on the next 15 minute check.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm having a problem to translate this into total numbers in the mentioned hex assuming it is at 100%
Start with the table given - these numbers look plenty
Esoteric Essence 2666
Laurel Leaves 1500
Dragoon Leaves 550
Bloodstone 203
Moonstone 100
Onyx 300
Coal 800
Hemp 250
Wool 380
Animal Pelt 210
Beast Pelt 200
yew Sapling 650
Pine Log 1200
Now we learn that the NPC hex mentioned has a total value of 330. This means the 9009 above needs to be scaled down to 330 resulting in the following table. Suddenly it looks A LOT LESS:
Esoteric Essence 98
Laurel Leaves 55
Dragoon Leaves 20
Bloodstone 7
Moonstone 4
Onyx 11
Coal 29
Hemp 9
Wool 14
Animal Pelt 8
Beast Pelt 7
yew Sapling 24
Pine Log 44
Now the next step is adjusting the numbers for intrinsic value. Stephen says that wood has a value 4-6 times higher. So I assume two cases - Lauren leaves value = 1 or Pine Log value = 1 leading to
Case 1
Laurel Leaves 55
Pine Log 7.3-11
Case 2
Laurel Leaves 220-330
Pine Log 44
Summary of concern
Point 1: I get 5-7.5 times more Laurel Leaves as Pine. I know Laurel Leaves are not everywhere - but there are substitutes. As crafter I need pine a lot more as herbs - so it is odd that herbs are less common.
Is the value the wrong way round?
In collectible card games high value = less common. But we have to be careful to equate high value with high need !
Point 2: I don't know if numbers for values are fractional. But worst case I get a value of 7 !! pine in a virgin hex. That can't be right.
I thank Lee for all the explanations - but he leaves out one very important part - what is the absolute value of these resources in the hex assuming it is virgin.
To be honest - I don't understand why there is the extra step from the table to go to the total value of the hex to the total of resources in the hex.
The table given looks great - but it is the real number of resources that a player will be able to harvest which determine if the economy works or not. AND there is the danger that it is this obfuscation of numbers that leads to the discrepancy encountered.
The table by Lee looks great. But is it really great - I cry foul and unplayable if there are only 7 pine logs in this virgin hex. I guess (hope) the reality is elsewhere - but I just don't know.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The issue with resources is that there need to be a balance.
Take iron.
Assume 2000 players to start EE. They all need a weapon - for simplicity assume 1000 need a weapon with metal in it - like a sword.
A sword needs 3 iron ingots which is 6 iron. Actually it is even more as we also talk + weapons with higher resource demands.
That means 6000 iron and 6000 coal are needed or 6 each.
The hex close to Thornkeep has a coal rating of 800 - lots.
Normalized to 330 this number drops to 29
Now assuming coal has a value of 4 this drops to 7
This means the whole hex provides enough coal for a single sword before it is exhausted. This is worst case scenario.
What about regrowth of resource - there is a 1% each 15 minutes - but it depends on how much is left. So if 6 coal are harvestes and 1 is left, then 14% chance to get back 1% of the coal (0.07) each 15 minutes gives you back 1 coal per day.
That makes 1 additional sword each week.
I don't know the intrinsic value of coal - I just rated it as 4. Rate it as 1 and you can multiply values by 4. Rate it as 0.1 and you can multiply values by 40.
This leaves a LARGE margin. Enough coal for 1 sword a week means it is pretty useless to gather coal here. Enough coal for 40 swords a week mean you can gather here enough coal to make weapons for a small settlement.
The other aspect is time. Diego spend >4 hours to harvest 35 coal. This makes 6 swords or 20 minute gathering for enough coal for 1 sword. That is a lot but he also gathered a lot other ingredients - so I'm less concerned about the time. With > 100 raw materials per hour and having spend time fighting as well you gather enough for 10 items assuming 10 raw materials are used in 1 hour. And I know I gathered up to 100 of a single ingredient in an hour.
Off course you have the issue to have the right ones. But that is by design and means trading etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thod, I don't have the brain with me today, so I can't follow all your calculations, but I assume they are right.
I do hope the result is from some error in the assumptions due to unclear info from Lee.
I guess the limit of 7, must be applicable to the frequency of spawns of the nodes, that is per 15 minutes. It cant be per day, because that would contradict other things that I have thought I understood from Lees info in that other thread...
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a related topic, is anyone besides me that feels that the loot drops has gone down? Every other red I kill these days has nothing to give, and some have just a handful of copper.
I don't know what level the red skeletons around Aragon is, but with History 7, I think I should get a bit more. Sometimes they drop blue salvage ... but...mmmm
Killed three red skeletons got a whopping total of three! copper and some torn peasant clothes.
Crossed the hexborder and killed a Omega Wolf and got 6 copper and a greatsword!
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Goblinworks Lead Game Designer
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So I stated something without going into the math behind it that has caused some confusion.
The total number of resources available at system start (and the max availble if it regens to full) are the above numbers.
Those numbers times the value of each resource and the results addede together are the total value found in the hex. So the value of esoteric essence*2666 plus the value of Laurel Leaves*1500, etc. That total value/1000=330. That's the metric I use to figure out how much stuff goes in a hex (and so wilderness hexes have a total value of around 673000 and monster hexes have a total value around twenty times that). So each NPC hex has approximately 330000 "value units" of items in it. This usually means 4000-8000 actual items in the hex, but this various widely.
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Goblinworks Lead Game Designer
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Would it break any assumptions if the chance to get wood or herbs were weighted by the "value" remaining, rather than the number of units remaining?
Maybe? I'll have to do a lot of math on that.
In any case it's a sufficient enough change where it can't be done without programming support so it's going to take a good while if it does work out.