I have a character that's specialized in fighting with spiked armor (also in grapple, and he's a dwarf, ofcourse! ...Some of you might recognize Thibbledorf Pwent's influence there.)
Anyway, I was wondering if it's possible to replace existing armor spikes from an existing armor without having to remake the whole armor again.
Currently he has +1 Stoneplate with +1 Furious Obsidian Spikes (anti rust monster weaponry; dwarves should know those pests well enough to hate them!) And obviously I wouldn't want to sell the whole crap just to remake it because I wanted (possibly) adamantine spikes.
Another question is, is it possible to have more than one set of armor spikes in one armor?
I don't think there will be a specific rule that states this. Crafting, in general, is not well defined in pathfinder. Thinking of it logically, I see no reason why they couldn't be removed and replaced. It would take the whole cost of adding spikes from scratch, and I don't think you should be able to transfer the enchantments over to the new spikes. I believe that would be 11,050 gp for +1 Furious Adamantine Armor Spikes.
I would not allow more than one set of spikes on the armor.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't let the spikes be made from a different material than the base armor.Weird houserule.
Why?
Technically I think it is RAW. Armor Spikes can (and must) be enchanted separately, but they actually can't be purchased separately, they add to the cost of an armor and are intrinsic to it. I believe that while a single item can be flavored as multiple materials, it can only every count as a single special material (except for double weapons, which also have special rules).
I don't think there is anything wrong with allowing different materials for the spikes, but RAW the spikes are built into the armor and made out of the same material.
Which answers the original question as well. Although I as a GM would allow both differing materials and the replacement of spikes.
Really?
I can put Armor Spikes on Leather Armor.
Are they Leather Spikes?
Fair enough. We were talking about special materials though and getting the benefit from them. The relevant rule is:
If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material.
A suit of armor (with spikes or not) can only get the benefit of its most prevalent material.
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So, even though you have to pay the extra for Special Material Armor Spikes, you can't actually benefit, unless you pay twice, as one for the Armor, and again for the Spikes?
No, that's silly.
Just like you can have a Darkwood Shield, with Cold Iron Shield Spikes, you can have a Mithral Breastplate, with Adamantine Armor Spikes.
Think about it.
How would Spiked Dragonhide Fullplate even work?
So, even though you have to pay the extra for Special Material Armor Spikes, you can't actually benefit, unless you pay twice, as one for the Armor, and again for the Spikes?
No, that's silly.
Don't think I ever said that. In fact, I think RAW you don't and you can't pay extra for special material on spikes. You pay for special material on the armor, and if so, that is what the spikes count as.
Just like you can have a Darkwood Shield, with Cold Iron Shield Spikes, you can have a Mithral Breastplate, with Adamantine Armor Spikes.
Think about it.
Shield spikes work the same way. By strictly RAW, as far as I am aware, an item (in this case a spiked shield) can only benefit from the most prevalent special materiel. I don't know of anything that states an exception for either spiked shields or armor spikes concerning the general special materials rule.
How would Spiked Dragonhide Fullplate even work?
Since Dragonhide provides no benefits to weapons, the spikes would get no special material benefits. Not real complex.
Once again, I have no problem treating these items like separate weapons instead of as a single item. I think it makes perfect sense to do so. However, that is, strictly speaking, a houserule at least from what I understand of the rules.
Armor spikes are part of a suit of armor. They are not a separate item. A suit of armor can only benefit from the most prevalent special material.
Clearly you can make a suit of armor out of more than one material. You can only benefit from one though, and that one has to be the most prevalent material.
I can make my armor out of Adamantine with gold filigree, mithral pauldrons and cold iron inlays. If the armor is mostly adamantine, then that is what it counts as, and the other materials provide NO mechanical benefits. This is true whether the armor has the spiked special feature or not.
By RAW, I don't think you have to pay the 3000 gp for Adamantine on the armor spikes. If you can show me where I am wrong, please do.
That would make sense, if the effects of special materials were the same for armor and for weapons. However, they are not. Mithral armor has completely different effects than mithral weapons.
If you say it is RAW that the spikes (a weapon attached to a suit of armor) has to have the same material as the suit of armor, what is your RAW source?
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Armor Spikes are a weapon.
You treat them, price them, and think of them, as a weapon.
Nobody gets an Adamantine weapon for 50gp.
You keep noting how only the prevalent material counts.
That is true, but for Armor, or Weapons. So, you couldn't have a Mithral/Adamantine Fullplate, that provides DR, and is treated lighter.
You also couldn't have a Silver/Adamantine Scimitar, that bypasses the DR of both.
You can, however, have a suit of Mithral Fullplate, with Adamantine Armor Spikes.
Now, in that example, the Mithral Fullplate, with Adamantine Armor Spikes, never gives you the benefit that Adamntine Fullplate would, as the Armor, is not Adamantine. Also, the Armor Spikes would not gain the benefit of being Mithral, as they are not Mithral.
Do you understand?
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This is also true of enchantments.
You may have a suit of +1 Fullplate, with Armor Spikes, but that doesn't add to the attack rolls, or damage, of the Armor Spikes.
In fact, you could have a suit of Masterwork Fullpplate, with Armor Spikes, and not even be able to enchant the Armor Spikes, as they, themselves, are not Masterwork.
Armor and shield spikes have a special clause that allows them to be enchanted as a weapon.
They don't have any special clause allowing them to be made from a separate material as a weapon.
They are purchased as an extra cost to an armor or a shield. You don't, and you can't, buy them as a weapon.
As someone occasionally says, Pathfinder is a permissive system, if it doesn't say you can then you can't.
Out of curiosity, would you allow a shield bash with an adamantine shield to bypass DR/adamantine?
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Armor and shield spikes have a special clause that allows them to be enchanted as a weapon.
They don't have any special clause allowing them to be made from a separate material as a weapon.
They are purchased as an extra cost to an armor or a shield. You don't, and you can't, buy them as a weapon.
As someone occasionally says, Pathfinder is a permissive system, if it doesn't say you can then you can't.
Out of curiosity, would you allow a shield bash with an adamantine shield to bypass DR/adamantine?
Wait, your version of the "permissive" clause, allows for massive cost cuts for weapons?
Also, yes, a shield is a Weapon, and the cost to make an Adamanitne Shield, is that of a weapon. It would otherwise do nothing for you.
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Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
Added seem to imply that the spikes can be added after the armor is crafted. I know that in one adventure I have "found" a metal armor with dragon bones spikes.
The fighter has added them to its armor for show.When the second bolded part has been added to the rules? I was aware of the FAQ, but that piece of text is new for me.
Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.Added seem to imply that the spikes can be added after the armor is crafted. I know that in one adventure I have "found" a metal armor with dragon bones spikes.
The fighter has added them to its armor for show.When the second bolded part has been added to the rules? I was aware of the FAQ, but that piece of text is new for me.
It's in my second printing CRB.
Something I just realized, its impossible to get spiked armor or shield using the random loot tables. The option is just nowhere in there.
Well, that snowball became an avalanche quickly.
Question was about whether or not I can remove armor spikes and/or add new ones. Even a child would realize that armor spikes are WEAPONS, they're sharp appendages protruding from an armor, they "just might" hurt a little, if punched with them. By definition, weapons hurt people. Now, by that logic, as they are WEAPONS you treat them as weapons - separately from their parental armor in which they have been added to; including special materials and enchantments, and ofcourse whether they are masterwork or crude quality.
Now the question in hand, I believe it has been answered by consensus and that's enough for me, you can replace existing spikes, by selling the former and buying new ones for full price (that was never the issue) but not add several spikes of different materials. And to be honest, that makes sense. To add spikes to an armor, that should leave some marks to it, and having more than one set would potentially even weaken the armor's functionalities.
About the added cost to your armor, to me it strikes only as that the armor and spikes combined would be valued as one item (this matters especially in Pathfinder Society, because Fame limits how expensive items you can own; in my case +1 stoneplate with +1 furious obsidian spikes would cost 11,175 gp; that's just under the limit of 27 Fame)
That's semantics, armor spikes are *intended* to be weapons. Everyone could hurt someone with them, lethally. Rope, on the other hand, does need some special practice to hurt someone with, and even then hardly lethal (suffocating is another thing entirely). Be reasonable, and try not read everything in the rules as if it was the bible. In fact, no one should read the bible as written either.
Yeah Arkhios, I think you should quit while you're ahead my friend. The fact that spikes can be added to existing armor (as pointed out by Diego's quote of the PRD) supports the idea that armor spikes can be swapped out for new ones. You don't need a special rule telling you that you can pull the old spikes off/out of the armor, that's just common sense. So once they're off you'd just pay to have new ones installed. Easy peasy.
Fine, be rules lawyer. It seems you failed to see that I tried explain my point by ways *outside* of the rules text, by simple contexts that someone who's not rules savvy as us gamers would understand it, conceptually. And I must disagree on one thing. Sure, special practice translates to weapon proficiency, but using an item unintended as a weapon, as a weapon would be an improvised weapon, unlike an item that's intentionally made as a weapon.
Absolutely nothing, except my own weirdness of trying to reason rules I'm reading with out-of-game-concepts, so carry on :P
Case Closed.
No no, a rope would be.