Household Chemicals in the Modern Age

[Sorian]

In a Pathfinder game based in the modern day, a player of mine wishes to use household chemicals as a poison.

As we all know, bleach is highly toxic and will kill you. A syringe full of bleach in the arm will drop the heartiest of men. Same with Ammonia.

My question is, how would you guys, as DMs, work this out, in terms of damage and effects? I'm not gonna say that it's an instant kill for certain, but I don't know how else I might handle it. It seems to me personally a bit cheesy to be using things that way, but I can't deny the validity of the tactic.

He also wants to combine Bleach and Ammonia to create toxic fumes. Again, a valid tactic, but how would you play it out?

[Bob Bob Bob]

To be fair, lots of things are super fatal injected in your arm. Air, for instance, is fatal in the bloodstream. There is no DC low enough to assign to "air poisoning".

The short answers is to decide how fatal you want something to be. Here's Arsenic. Is what they want more or less fatal than arsenic?

Here's the full list of poisons DANGER: TOXIC. The DCs should give you an idea what to do with them. Hemlock is DC 18, for instance. Jellyfish is DC 14, and the lowly centipede is DC 11.

The basic structure of poisons is type (ingested, inhaled, injury, contact), save DC (to avoid it in the first place and to cure it after getting poisoned), onset time, number of saves to cure, duration between saves, and effect on a failed save. Some have the initial save and the second save different, some are more than one type, and quite a few have different initial and secondary effects.

So for bleach we're looking at:
Ingested, DC 15? Fort save, onset: Immediate, cure: 1 save, Frequency: 1/round for 6 rounds, effect: 1 Con damage and nauseated
That covers drinking bleach, using it with a syringe really isn't covered by the poison rules. Injury poison would imply you can slather bleach on a sword and cutting someone with the sword would poison them, which doesn't make much sense for bleach. Plus you could accidentally poison yourself applying bleach to your weapon, which seems... unlikely.

As for mixing it up to make a gas, that's just a standard inhaled poison. I think there's a ninja or alchemist archetype or class feature that lets them change poison types like that. Up the DC if you think the gas is stronger than the liquid. If you're going for the mustard gas aspect, let me introduce you to the Trench Mist, sentient mustard gas that zombifies who it kills. Thankfully you get machine guns to kill it. Doesn't help against the animated brain tanks though. And yes, this is all first party Pathfinder.

[Thelemic_Noun]

Add vinegar instead of ammonia. You'll get a stronger poison.

Just sayin'.

[KnightoftheMorrigan]

As the one who proposed this to the OP, I am taking many notes.
Also trench mist, god damn. Do we really need a zombie plague here?
Also the application of much science is going on in the background.

[bookrat]

Sorian wrote:

He also wants to combine Bleach and Ammonia to create toxic fumes. Again, a valid tactic, but how would you play it out?

Useless as a weapon. Don't do it. The gas is heavy and won't go a few inches above ground level. As far a toxicity is concerned, it's primarily a displacement leading to oxygen deprevation. It can have some more drastic effects of you hold in your lungs, but that requires you to hold your head down at ground level. This is why people tend to get hurt the most when mixing the chemicals for cleaning purposes - they're already holding thier head down at ground level and breathing it in. Once they pass out, the gasses produced (typically some form of a chloramine - aka a chlorine molecule on an amine group) can react with the mucus membranes in your nasal cavities and lings to produce further damage.

[bookrat]

You want deadly toxins for modern era games? Try these (just off the top of my head):

Cobra venom, blowfish poison, brown recluse venom, black widow venom, arsenic, botulinum toxin (most potent natural toxin known to man), dioxins (specifically 2,4-D), strychnine, cyanide, methyl mercury, benzene, chloroform, benzo[a]pyrene, high dosage of Tylenol (will kill of liver failure within a few weeks; very painful), strong acids such as hydrochloride acid (can see real life versions of this with a Google search; some pets of the world men throw acid on women who don't obey them), ricin... Bunch of others I can't think of at the moment.

[bookrat]

Web just ate my post. :(

Ok, to rehash real quick:

Reali life poisons are based on two primary things: dose and route of administration. For dose info, look up the LD50. The lower the number, the more deadly it is. This references the potency of the toxin. As for route, more research will be necessary. Even water is toxic (drinking a gallon or two within an hour will kill you within a few hours, breathing a few teaspoons will kill you a bit faster).

i can give more specifics upon request. Toxicology was my major in college. I love talking about this stuff.

[KnightoftheMorrigan]

Also, part of the original idea of using bleach/ammonia was that it was cheap. It was quick murder on a budget, (I originally got the idea during a shadowrun game to counteract the overly engineered overly expensive synthetic shit they had). Bleach was just cheaper. These are all far more effective, but it's just, ya know, cost and availability. Highly concentrated pool chlorine and liquid nitrogen for example can send people into a come in like two or less minutes, but it's having quick access to liquid nitrogen. you can plan for it, but you just gotta hope that no figures you out.
Also, again, price

Edit: Correction, liquid nitrogen and pool chlorine don't actually do anything together

[bookrat]

Check out the anarchists cookbook or don't steal this book for more ideas. Just remember that this is for gaming purposes and I in no way condone using any of these in real life.

[KnightoftheMorrigan]

I would consider it, but i feel like just being in the same thread as the title gets me on the NSA watch list.
Actually, mentioning the NSA gets you on the NSA watch list.
*welp*

[bookrat]

Lots of plants and animals contain toxins that may be easy for a character to get a hold of. Where I live, rattlesnakes and oleander are both readily available. A character with the right skills would be able to extract the toxins from either.

Most chemicals in their pure form are highly toxic; if your character has access to a chemistry lab from the local college, he may be able to put them to use. Just make sure your character has knowledge skills in chemistry and toxicology.

For a more detailed and historically accurate book, read the Poisoner's Handbook. Excellent historical account of the birth of forensic toxicology and some of the largest poisoning cases in U.S. history. Very good read.

[bookrat]

KnightoftheMorrigan wrote:

I would consider it, but i feel like just being in the same thread as the title gets me on the NSA watch list.

Actually, mentioning the NSA gets you on the NSA watch list.
*welp*

As a forensic scientist who specializes in toxicology, I'm fairly certain I've been on their list for years just based on the stuff I google. :)