I have been tinkering around with some simple templates to improve monster/NPC survivability. Something simple which can be applied to a boss monster or important solo creature to make it last longer than one round of combat without giving it a bucket load of immunities. Obviously you would not apply this template to a monster or NPC which already had immunities or pre-cast spells which would defeat the PC’s. What is your opinion of this?
Elite Basic Template (CR +1)
Creatures and NPCs with the elite template are luckier, hardier, more determined, or have stronger resolve than their ordinary cousins.
Quick Rules: Receives full hit points per Hit Die (rather than the average for an ordinary creature). Receives the following ability:
Dangerous Foe (Ex) Once per day as a free action, the creature gains an additional standard or move action this turn. This ability can only be taken on the creatures turn.
I like it. At least the Full HP rule sounds like a simple, but VERY useful and practical :) The second ability wouldn't even necessarily need to be applied, depending on the monster (like, if it seems to hit hard enough), but otherwise is still an awesome addition to those that don't seem as strong as others.
So, long story short, I like it.
I always give the BBEG max HP. I have had players that would have gotten very upset about a BBEG taking extra standard actions. But at the same time, many of my BBEGs in the past have been completely handicapped by the cost of certain actions that ought to have been easy. However, I do agree that that an extra action is a good solution, especially if the PC party is greater than four members strong. And many times, if caught surprised, actions are too valuable for the BBEG to buff himself up to his full threat power.
One thing 5th Ed D&D has done is create a "Legendary" type for monsters. Legendary monsters get actions at the end of other players' turns, up to a certain number of bonus actions per round, as well as some other effects that they can use to make the fight harder. You might look at that to adapt to Pathfinder.
Here's another ability that you can add to your template:
Ready For Action (Ex): Unless sleeping, the creature begins one combat per day with certain spells or spell-like abilities already active. Any spell that has a target of "Personal" or "Creature(s) touched" can be activated with this ability. The creature may activate 1 such ability in this manner for every 3 hit dice it has.
I like this. Simple but good.
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I think action economy is definitely a thing in fights with one monster against multiple PCs. I wonder how this would work:
Speed to Match (Ex): this creature takes a second mini-turn every round. Roll separate initiative for the mini-turn. If at any time the mini-turn would follow directly on the main turn or vice versa, the creature must delay the second (mini)turn until an enemy has had a turn. Then the creature receives its turn (even if the enemy chose to delay or ready). During the mini-turn the creature may take only a Move or Swift action. Alternatively, if the creature started casting a spell with casting time 1 round during its main turn, it can finish that spell by spending its mini-turn on it. Finally, it can spend the turn to attempt to free itself from a Grapple or Pin.
Several things go into this:
I think this is a really strong ability; giving an actual Standard might be too much actually, I think this is quite enough to offset some disadvantages of being outnumbered.
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Give them Quick Draw and Potion Glutton as bonus feats. Thanks to the summoner, the spells greater invisibility and stoneskin are available in potion form.
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I've made my own elite and boss templates and I was not concerned about action economy. I don't care if 4 players take 4 actions total vs. the BBEG single action. BBEG or main henchman should be able to handle that.
The big issue with BBEG in PF (and 3rd ed games) is that they are either shut down in a round or two (and not because of action economy), or if made too powerful they destroy the PCs.
That being said the Template should:
- Boost all saves. Saves modification at CR (+1) should put him in "more than likely to save" territory. This can be a flat boost on all save categories and I would probably break the guidelines for saves at CR. It also depends on how optimized the PCs in your group are. If the bonuses are done right and scaled appropriately, their default save DCs thrown against the BBEG shouldn't really succeed. They should need to be prepared (via buffs) for him to him to even worry about a save and he should still probably succeed. So the math/save bonus varies.
An eyeball guideline I use: add in pre-template CR to the weak saves. This of course would have to scale down as the creatures go up in saves.
So an Ogre would get +3 on his Reflex and Will saves.
End result - all the saves should be close to the creature/npcs best saves across the board.
- Max HP are nice, they may help keep him around longer but....
- Low to moderate DR X/- truly addresses all that damage that is coming in every round.
DR X /- + good saves will keep a BBEG around for at least a few rounds of a fight. Resistances do the same (energy, Turn - whatever is appropriate).
- One major hook - reroll one save per day or auto pass one save per day. This is a huge mechanic and also mitigates action economy/Win button tactics.
There should be a custom template for Melee, casters and trick BBEG. Each one boosting areas of weakness and not strength.
There could also be three variable stat boosts (dependent upon template) - so 3 different stats get +4. These three can default to the save stats (Dex, Wis and Con) or the DM can move them around to shore up other weak areas.
Ex - A melee BBEG template shouldn't be too worried about adding AC, damage, hit points, Fort saves, etc. The NPC should already have that and adding to it will just make strong stronger and make the encounter initiative dependent. A Melee BBEG template should: Boost Reflex and Will saves, add in spell resistance, extra save once per day, allow for reduced effect spells (as if the spell was saved against) once per day, etc.
The idea and focus is to: Keep the BBEG in the fight and to make the fight memorable.
You can't cover everything with a template, but it can help shore up weaknesses. Some things like touch attack vulnerability or no save spells are always going to be an issue if the guy isn't built balanced against those threats.
A template could be used to shore up areas where magic items or class abilities aren't going to cut it.
Ogre
BBEG Template (Melee)
CR 4
XP 1200
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 19, touch 8, flat-footed 17 (+4 armor, +1 Dex, +5 natural, –1 size)
hp 38 (4d8+20)
Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +7
DR 3/-; Resist Fire And Cold 5; SR 9
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft. (40 ft. base)
Melee greatclub +7 (2d8+7)
Ranged javelin +3 (1d8+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 21, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +9; CMD 18
Feats Iron Will, Toughness
Skills Climb +7, Perception +5
Languages Giant
SA: Re-roll one save per day, Autopass one spell per day
Treasure standard (hide armor, greatclub, 4 javelins, other treasure)
Template:
Added DR 3/- (original CR), Spell Resistance: 5 + new CR
+4 to Dex, Con and Wis
Resist Fire and Cold 5
Re-roll one save per day
Autopass one save per day
This would be a BBEG for a level 1-ish party. Didn't do max hp.
I've made my own elite and boss templates and I was not concerned about action economy. I don't care if 4 players take 4 actions total vs. the BBEG single action. BBEG or main henchman should be able to handle that.
The big issue with BBEG in PF (and 3rd ed games) is that they are either shut down in a round or two (and not because of action economy), or if made too powerful they destroy the PCs.
That being said the Template should:
** spoiler omitted **...
This is also great. I think I will give this one a try. Thank you for sharing! !!!
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I'd love to see a series of ascending templates that would allow me to quickly advance a basic creature up through the "ranks" of Bad Guy-ness.
Start with "mini boss," which might just grant max HP per die and some little bonuses here and there. This is how you make the "big orc" who leads the marauding pack.
Next is "boss," which includes extra actions, die hard survivability, and maybe even stock minions. Here's what you use to make the orc chief into a great battle at the end of an adventure.
Finally, the "villain" template is what you add on to the deep dark behind your whole campaign, this guy has HP per limb (or head, tail, wing, etc), lots of actions, more HP, and automatic buff spells active, etc. To continue the above example, this would be the template used to create the ancestral hero orc the necromancer brought back to life as a hideous abomination to destroy the whole kingdom.
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What about giving the boss a number of "lives" that he can spend to shrug off SoS/SoD/massive critical hit effects? Instead of giving him save bonuses that last the entire fight, this would be a finite resource. You're not going to be able to Slumber him on the first round, you have to wear him down a bit until he becomes vulnerable to that.
What I'm looking for is something that still allows a player's hefty abilities to work, but not to end boss fights in the very first round with them.
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What about giving the boss a number of "lives" that he can spend to shrug off SoS/SoD/massive critical hit effects? Instead of giving him save bonuses that last the entire fight, this would be a finite resource. You're not going to be able to Slumber him on the first round, you have to wear him down a bit until he becomes vulnerable to that.
What I'm looking for is something that still allows a player's hefty abilities to work, but not to end boss fights in the very first round with them.
The problem with multiple lives is that long term SoS or SoD may still linger if the save aspect (taking hold or avoiding effect) is not addressed. A lock down SoS ability is going to stick around for a few rounds - independent of any BBEG "regenerations".
I'd rather take the approach that the BBEG requires optimal "to-hit" rolls to be hit. Damage is reduced (mitigate incoming damage/action economy) and that SoD/SoS do not shut down the encounter - but are not worthless either since you would need a few to get through his defenses.
So addressing the problem with BBEG's is twofold - or that you have to cover two fronts:
- Incoming damage
- SoD/SoS/encounter shut-down effects.
If you can manage those two and have a memorable fight: such as memorable/unique location, special ability of BBEG or special nature of BBEG (dragon) all help if thrown in the mix.
Even a fight with an evil warlord and his minions with everyone fighting on a rope bridge with no extra frills would be work. If the BBEG is tough, makes most of his saves and gets a few re-rolls he will be on par with the party in the last fight.
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To manage these two mechanical factors I would suggest at the minimum
- Incoming damage: This can be handled with DR/- or half damage from all attacks or whatever else will work. Max hp are great, but optimized martials are going to cut right through those hp very fast. A flat damage reduction vs. everything or 1/2 damage (the latter would be worse for higher level PCs) would keep him around longer.
- SoD/SoS/encounter shut-down effects: one approach (as I suggested) would be incremental save bonuses to low save areas (bonus = unmod CR). Or your can go flat bonuses +2, +4, etc. Again, neither of these methods prevent a 1st round shut down. My other suggestion would be to also include at least one re-roll (a hero factor of sorts) for saves and one auto-save. Both of which the GM can manage as the players may try to bait these out of the GM in a fight. Higher level foes may get more re-rolls or auto saves, so again players trying to game it do so at their own peril.
I personally would rather have the BBEG suffer partial effects (him banking few auto saves) vs. bulking him up with insane SR, base saves, or anything that makes it all or nothing situation.
The "nothing" (BBEG making save, SR, etc) part keeps the BBEG in the fight one more round while the "all" (BBEG failed save) shuts down the fight - which is what we are trying to avoid.
At least on the first couple of rounds.
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I believe that what he's saying is less of a direct regeneration than a sort of limited-use get out of jail free card. Your BBEG has three 'lives'. He gets hit with Baleful Polymorph. You burn a life, he auto-succeeds his save. Fight goes on, the Slayer hammers him for some ridiculous amount of damage-- you burn another life, he only takes a portion of the damage of that attack (or perhaps none at all). The Slayer then does it again, and again you burn off a life... but the next time he gets hit with a Save-or-Die, you have to roll his save as normal, and if he fails it he's boned.
No I get it.
I'd just rather used established mechanics: DR, re-roll save (from some feats), bonuses to saves, etc, than creating an entirely new mechanic such as a universal life regeneration - where the BBEG is give "X" lives that are burnt up when he fails a major save, takes a huge (fatal) hit, etc. The latter rules still don't stop the BBEG from being more than a speedbump (statistically). His rate of failure of saves is unchanged nor are any of his stats. He may go through those 2-3 extra lives all in one round.
But it could work - and I'm all for anything that works for people.
I just rather explain DR, re-rolls, - i.e: structuring abilities of the BBEG around existing rules and explaining it to questioning players in the context of abilities they are familiar with. Might be easier and less meta than the concept of lives or stages or transformations (if you have a progressively stronger or weaker BBEG as he goes through his "lives").
Again, whatever works - I think this is a problem that was exasperated under the 3.X system enough that I created my own templates to fix the problem. So the problem for some GMs is there.
Edit to add: What might work instead of a template is a specialized "Villain" point system. Named bad guy gets X points per scenario and when they run out its the end. Something like this could even work for named henchmen who get away once (using their single point) only to be later caught by Arnold...er, the player characters later where he meets his justified and gruesome death.
It would need to be a hero system customized for villains and villain tricks. So not just for combat mechanics but escapes, extra tricks, bad luck for PCs, etc.
An idea at least.
Interesting ideas.
I've been pondering the idea of a "antagonist" pool for abilities like re-rolls, phantom hitpoints, quickened actions, diminished save or suck effects, moving minions into incoming danger, etc. (Especially as Mythic didn't quiiiite do it for me.)
I will try to write up something a bit more coherent than "regains points every time a PC interrupts the villain's monologue or tries to force the NPC paladin to fall" and hopefully get it up faster than the worm-that-walks stats...
Great food for thought / inspirations, folks, thanks :)
-TimD
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@Auxmalos: basically what kestral said yeah.
Thing is, I don't want the boss to actually be immune to the PCs' superpowers for the whole fight. I just don't want him to drop to those powers in the first round. I want a bit of time to monologue or bluster, to show off a few cool powers.
I'm fine with the existence of SoD/SoS powers (and barbarian melee attacks that are pretty much "duck or die" too) in general. They're fine against the boss' henchmen. But I don't want them used to shortcut a final fight.
If I were to use DR, SR and so forth, there'd still be problems; like spells that bypass SR, smite that bypasses DR and such. Also, those defences would also still be going strong later in the combat, but I don't want that either. I want the BBEG to become more vulnerable as combat goes on.
So on the one hand, "lives" would be more versatile; they'll even let the boss shrug off powers that still have nasty effects on a successful save. On the other hand, they'd be almost certain to run out, after which PCs can legitimately try one-hit attacks to finish off the boss.
@Auxmalos: basically what kestral said yeah.
Thing is, I don't want the boss to actually be immune to the PCs' superpowers for the whole fight. I just don't want him to drop to those powers in the first round. I want a bit of time to monologue or bluster, to show off a few cool powers.
I'm fine with the existence of SoD/SoS powers (and barbarian melee attacks that are pretty much "duck or die" too) in general. They're fine against the boss' henchmen. But I don't want them used to shortcut a final fight.
If I were to use DR, SR and so forth, there'd still be problems; like spells that bypass SR, smite that bypasses DR and such. Also, those defences would also still be going strong later in the combat, but I don't want that either. I want the BBEG to become more vulnerable as combat goes on.
So on the one hand, "lives" would be more versatile; they'll even let the boss shrug off powers that still have nasty effects on a successful save. On the other hand, they'd be almost certain to run out, after which PCs can legitimately try one-hit attacks to finish off the boss.
Some great ideas here, thank you.
My original intention of the template was to make it as simple as possible. Maybe even facilitating its use mid-fight when the GM realises he's under estimated the PCs. The objective is to create a memorable experience without neutering the PCs abilities.
Ascalaphus's comment about giving the bad guy enough time to monologue is dead on target - just enough time to last a few rounds, make an impression and make the PCs feel threatened. Memorable battles rather than whack-a-mole!
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Well, a Villain point system with a detailed list of picks and abilities might make more sense.
Some examples:
- Extra Move for 3 rounds, if escaping and using chase rules the party gets some extra hurdles (checks/cards) while chasing him.
- Half Damage from all attacks in one round (after all damage is in)
- Makes one save
- Gets to re-roll two saves
- Make any two checks in a fight - this can include making checks to detect invisible foes. Checks can also be Combat Maneuvers (Sunder, Overrun, etc)
- Save for non-save spells (Energy Drain does half, if in Solid Fog may make save to avoid effect of Fog)
- Pierce Magic (Dispel magic effect or see through illusion. Ex - Warlord smashes Wall of Force with his magic sword or sees through Mirror Images). This can also be the Warlord pulling his bow and shooting at the invisible flying wizard cancelling his fly or invisibility.
- Scaling DR and Resistance for 3 rounds. Levels 1-4 DR 5/- Resistance 10, levels 5-8 DR 10/- Resistance 20, levels 9-12 DR 15/- Resistance 30, levels 12+ DR 20/-, Resistance 40 + half damage from all magical attacks. Resistance counts for all energy attacks (including force).
- Negate penalties - for 3 rounds negate any penalties to hit from ALL sources. That includes benefits that the target gets from situational benefits (Invisible, etc).
- Luck opportunity: The villain gets whatever works. Wandering monster, city guard comes along in street fight and things PCs are the bad guys, some kind of terrain advantage/escape opportunity.
Villain gets a pool associated with his CR, named minions get only 1 to 2 points.
Something like that? Maybe change some specific (Durations, DR, etc), but something in that vein?
I used "Warlord" in many examples because evil melee BBEG hardly exist or are supported in PF. So a melee bad guy with some of these abilities becomes a viable and real threat.
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Your list looks like a great starting point. I think I'd work from the standpoint that it's better to increase the BBEG's defences/staying power than to make him more deadly.
Often it seems writers want to make a solo boss by giving him many more levels. That gives him some staying power but mainly he starts killing PCs every round. And that's not the funnest thing possible.
I'd much rather have an extended slugging match or a cat and mouse game where the BBEG and players are trying to get into a position to strike hard.
Maybe there should be a clause that after round 4 or so, all remaining unspent villain points are lost. But oh boy can they do a lot of nasty stuff in the first four rounds...
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I think most of my list is concerned about staying power with the exception of a few dispel/counter tricks that may seem offensive.
I threw those in for exactly the scenario I sort of out lined - the evil warlord on the ground dealing with the "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" flying-invisible wizard and said evil warlord locking him (VP) then firing a disrupting shot (VP) to shoot that turkey out of the sky.
Or if he gets hedged in by some silly spell he can smash through - hence the ability to break those locks or shut downs.
A VP system needs to be able to cover all sorts of BBEGs - the caster, the sneaky villain/rogue/assassin, the warlord and even the elusive cunning beast roaming the countryside stealing away villagers in the night.
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One thing to consider - while a VP system may not add to damage, outgoing save DCs, etc - a threat that is around longer is still going to do more damage just on sheer probability round over round damage. This would also apply to my earlier template or any template that is design to keep a creature around longer.
Part of the problem with 3.X PF games is they designed several glass cannon monsters - high damage output, crap saves with nothing special hit points. This is partially intentional. The creature stays around for one round an maybe gets one solid hit in with the expectation that it will be dead by the end of that round. Changing that dynamic - not adding more damage - but simply changing things around to keep the same creature around longer means the creature on average will do more damage round-over-round.
So in my first modified Ogre example, using a VP system or BBEG template I would consider dumping the two-handed weapon, giving him a shield and a single-handed (lower damage) weapon. Since under a VP system he is guaranteed to be around for a couple of rounds his listed one-shot, throw away creature damage becomes too powerful (IMO). I also would like more back and forth, solid damage but not taking out one PC per round.
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Good points. We can't apply these templates to just any creature and expect the same results. That goes for most templates of course, but here the stakes are higher since there are major encounters.
I agree about taking WEEEEEEEE-wizards down a peg.
I think it's generally good to have the bad guy do more damage because he's got more rounds, instead of doing more damage per round because he just got more levels (the current typical situation).
