Horn of the Criosphinx & Overhand Chop

[Suthainn]

I'm unsure exactly how these two interact if one were to possess both of them, firstly we have:

Overhand Chop (Ex) wrote:

At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.

and then:

Horn of the Criosphinx (Combat) wrote:

Benefit(s): Whenever you make a successful charge attack while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands, add two times your Strength bonus to the damage roll.

Would this mean you add 2.5 your Strength bonus on such an attack? An additional 0.5 increase from both feats as they would do used separately? Or something else? I've tried searching but other than people asking the same question a few months ago with no definite result, only a couple of peoples ideas of how they might interact, I couldn't find anything so any ideas or firm help with the rules would be appreciated.

[BobtheSamurai]

IIRC, the rules of stacking multipliers means that a double of a double = a triple. So 3x Str to damage on a charge.

[Secret Wizard]

I don't think these stack.

You can add some attribute bonus to damage rolls, default being 1.5x Strength modifier. Overhand Chop says add double your Strength modifier. Horn says add double your Strength modifier.

What these two are missing is "instead of what you would normally add", which is implied.

[Rhatahema]

From what I can tell there's no written answer as to how these two abilities interact. The as-written interpretation of each ability is that you add twice your strength modifier as a bonus to damage on top of everything else. Though that's obviously not the intent, and as Secret Wizard points out, you're required to read what's implied for it to work as intended. But I think the answer is a little uncertain.

It could read "instead of your usual strength bonus to damage.", or more specifically "instead of 1.5x your strength bonus to damage." In either case the two abilities wouldn't stack.

On the other hand, if you're going add clarifying text to communicate intent, it could just as easily be ", +50% over your usual strength bonus to damage for wielding a weapon two-handed."

I would guess the former, more conservation interpretation if asked how Paizo would answer. That said, I prefer the clarity of adding percentages instead of altering multipliers. For instance, in another thread there was debate over using the two-handed fighter's backswing during a flurry of blows. Both are legal to use together, but flurry changes the strength modifier multiplier for two-handed weapons to x1, while backswing changes it to x2. It's an unresolvable conflict since they're of equal specificity compared to the general rule. Percentage based wording probably would have avoided the issue.

[Suthainn]

Thanks for the input, it's definitely less than clear and whilst obviously Str x 3 would be great for a build using this it does seem a little over the top, that said, the abilities not adding at all also seems to be going to the opposite extreme.

I suspect i'll just have to do my best to adjudge the rules as intended for now and hope for clarification sometime in the future, though I do wonder how this would be ruled to work (or not) in PFS, which might give a useful indication on how to approach it.

[Kazaan]

There are three parts to any bonus; Source, Value, and Type.

Source is what rules element allows you to add that bonus. In this case, the Source is the default Combat rules; they allow you to add your Strength modifier to your damage roll.

Value is how much the bonus is. Sometimes, it's static like Weapon Specialization; the value is +2. Sometimes it's dynamic such as Power Attack where the value of the bonus scales with thresholds of BAB. Other times, it derives its value from one of your attribute scores. Mind you, this doesn't make the attribute score the source of the bonus, just the basis for the value. Sometimes, there is a factor involved such as, when wielding a 2-h weapon (or a 1-h weapon in two hands), you add 1.5x Str bonus.

Type is inconsequential to this question since the Str bonus to damage is untyped anyway so I won't go into detail on this.

So, what we have, is a single Source with two different abilities (one feat and one class ability) that alter how you derive the Value of the bonus. It's also not compounding the bonus such as the case with a pair of "double" effects. It's outright replacing the factor. Normally, you deal 1x Str modifier with an attack. If using a 2-h weapon (or 1-h in two hands), you get a a 50% bonus to that. Both the abilities in question change that from a 50% bonus to a 100% bonus. This is the same logic that tells us that Overhand Chop isn't saying to add 2x Str bonus on top of the 1.5x you'd normally get for using a weapon in two hands. So the combo is outright redundant, at least when it comes to charging.