[If this belongs in General Discussion instead, please move it. I decided Gameplay Discussion sounded more appropriate]
So, if things were still back like they were in RotR, where there were only 11 characters, I wouldn't bother posting this. But with 51 characters now, I thought people might be interested in my thoughts on these characters after a few adventures, as it's now pretty difficult to play every character oneself. ...It gives me something to do at the least, and I can chat with you guys about it if you reply.
I played solo through most of AP4 in RotR with S&S Lini, Flenta, and Amaryllis this weekend. Here is what they looked like at the end of the weekend, as best as I can remember:
☑☑☑Dexterity +3
☑Wis +1
☑☑7 card hand size
☑Light Armor Proficiency
☑Place animal allies on top of deck
☑Recharge to reduce combat damage by 1
Deathbane Light Crossbow +1
☑Light Crossbow +1
Restoration
Swipe
Cure x2
☑☑Aid x2
Snakeskin Tunic
Masterwork Tools
☑Emerald Codex
Toad x2
Badger
Saber Tooth Tiger
Blessing of Abadar x4
Flenta, Arcane Pretender
☑☑☑☑Strength + 4
☑☑7 card hand size
☑Arcane: Intelligence +2 on attack spells
☑Recharge a Spell to add 1 plus its adventure deck number to your combat check (☑or non-combat check).
Horesechopper +1
[That loot weapon from AP2, can't remember the name for the life of me]
Long Sword +2
Glaive
Major Cure [AP3 Spell]
Scrying x2 [AP3 Spell]
[Some magical Light Armor I recharge all the time lol]
Staff of Minor Healing
Staff of Heaven and Earth
Greater Luck Stone
☑Magic Spyglass
Shalelu Andosana
☑☑Black Arrow Ranger x2
Blessing of Lamashtu
Blessing of Zarongel
☑2 nearly random blessings
Amaryllis, Luck Stealer
☑☑☑☑Charisma +4
☑7 card hand size
☑If she fails any check, ☑discard to reroll and ☑add 1d4.
☑Recharge spells before and after resetting hand
Lightning Bolt
Haste
Swipe
Scorching Ray
☑☑Incindiary Cloud x2
Staff of Minor Healing
Masterwork Tools
Wand of Ennervation
Ring of Protection
Poog
Crow
☑Cat x2
Blessing of Lamashtu x2
☑2 nearly random blessings
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Lini: I built Lini with the Toad in mind, so I was more concerned with not failing her combat checks (hence the +3 dex) than with recharging spells (yay toads). Since I built her for dex and not str, she didn't need weapon proficiencey (light crossbows don't use it) and I took armor proficiency instead for the sake of the snakeskin tunic. Her ability to reuse animals is really good with the shuffle/top deck and the lack of need for them to be in her hand for the d4+x - I actually keep animal allies in Amaryllis' deck to hand off to Lini once in a while, since Amaryllis usually just explores with her allies.
I find she is woefully inadequate at combat compered to her RotR incarnation. She lacks the quantity of spells to run a few support spells (like cure and Resto) and still be a spell slinger in combat, and using weapons to kill things is tough without the extra d4+x given her stats. Discarding (or recharging against certain boons) to turn her base die into a d12 can help, but it really slows her down even if you get to recharge (which she gets to a lot in S&S, I know). Relying on only one or two combat spells is difficult as they can be hard to draw in time given how often she'll be casting them. The end result was that I built her for support. She'll take her one free explore per turn, maybe one or two more if I'm confident, and that's it.
As a supporter, she works well, IF built very well and played ver carefully. In fact, if you do it like I did, she's almost broken, but I don't think she's that good otherwise. Two top-decking toads allow you to keep cure, aid, and swipe handy at all times (I'll get to Resto in a bit). Simply don't make the recharge check unless it's your second copy so that the card stays in your discard pile for the toads. Before too long, you'll find yourself never losing any cards from your deck as you draw and re-play the allies, unless you Resto yourself. You can heal any friends who need it, aid any checks that need it (bless them too if you have a blessing handy) and Swipe for your own or others' combat checks (if you run one - I'm probably going to drop it for another Resto if I find one).
I kept Cure over Major Cure or Mass Cure (if I find one) because I don't want to shuffle my Toads off the top of my deck.
The Badger is very useful, as it lets you move around to heal and Restore your friends with ease - both Cure and Restoration require the same location.
Now: S&S Lini + Toad + Restoration. This is probably the most broken, overpowered thing in the game that doesn't actually need an errata (well, anymore, as Resto already got one). It's just dumb, you get to let a friend draw two extra cards per turn per Restoration in your deck, allowing for crazy big turns of exploring (espicially with Incindaiary Clouds around). They don't have to worry about dying because casting Cure is so trivial. You can use Restoration on yourself to draw the toads on top of your deck and use them again. And you can use Toad to get back Restoration and cast Restoration on your friends' turns to help get around the display ability slowing you down. If you have two Restorations (I haven't found another yet in my game) you can use two toads to get back double Resto, draw them both with one Resto, and cast the other on a friend to let them draw two cards AT NO COST TO LINI, and you can do it during each turn of your friends'.
This build is ludicrous, but highly amusing to play. It is kept somewhat in check by Lini herself not being that powerful, but simply providing healing and draw power to her friends. She can't really handle big baddies on her own at all in this build. Still, it makes her totally worth playing... but only once you get Restoration; she was a drag on the party through all the scenarios until I got Resto in AP4. It also doesn't work in S&S, which has no Toads (and perhaps no Restos).
Orbis' Judgement: This Lini is stupidly good (perhaps OP) with a couple Toads and cure, aid, & Resto. Without Toads or Resto, however, she is steeped in mediocrity and way down on the list of characters when ranked in power level. Way, way down.
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Flenta: Flenta seemed fun, for a fighter at least (I like spellcasting compared to weapons, and love Divine spellcasters best of all). Early on, her ability is eh for casting spells, but really good at finding Augury's for your other spellcaster to take at the end of the scenario. Once you hit AP3, it's just fantastic for removing basic Arcane spells from the box. After doing that, however, it becomes pretty ineffective. The biggest problems are the crappy spells that aren't basic like Acid Arrow or Mirror Image that she can still find but can't banish. In the end though, you'll just never cast spells and instead slaughter things with her more-than-adequate strength/melee skills and weapons.
It is for this reason that I took the Arcane Pretender role. As my other two characters, both spellcasters, acquire spells and then drop some at the end of the scenario, Flenta can get her hands on some pretty hefty spells. She can simply avoid casting them and use them to get strong bonuses to her checks (+4 or more to non-combat checks is fantastic on her). This also works well as a sort of storage for the spellcasters - If I decide that I want Scrying back for Amaryllis, Flenta can give it to her at the start of a turn or scenario.
I will also add the power that lets me recharge items for the bonus; for this reason I have started to stock up on high Ap items. In particular, I have grabbed Staff of Heaven and Earth - Flenta can discard the Spell she won't be casting anyway to defeat a barrier, or she can recharge the staff for +5 to a check (when I take that power).
Her usefulness to the party ebbs and flows as she acquires non-basic pre-AP spells, does nothing special, banishes basic spells, does nothing special, and finally can simply recharge the spells to get a powerful static boost to her checks. This makes her very powerful and reminescent of RotR Lini. It's not as consistant as RotR Lini's ability as it requires specific recharges, but Flenta starts out with solid stats before buffing. Still not as good, but not everyone can be overpowered.
Orbis' Judgement: Overall, I like Flenta for a fighter, particularly going for the Arcane Pretender role so that her spells are useful late game. She's solid and fun, which is all I ask of any character. Well designed for standard play, if not Organized Play.
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Amaryllis: The first thing I want to say is the obvious: Amaryllis' ability to reroll failed checks is awesomesauce. I particularly like the "and add 1d4" particularly once you can discard instead of bury - small, piddly checks like "craft 4" or "survival 6" become much more reasonable when you get one chance to roll mas and then another chance with a d4; sometimes I'll discard something to try and acquire a card I can't roll high enough without the d4. It's nifty. But more important is just straight up re-rolling things. In RotR, for instance, you tend to eventually get to a point where the only time you're taking combat damage is when you whiff your roll. With re-rolls, that's hardly a factor at all...
The second thing I want to say about Amaryllis is that her ability to recharge a spell from her discard pile is awesome. The reason for this is subtle, a three-level analysis:
1) On the very surface, this seems awesome because you can get one (or two) extra tries at each recharge check on your spells! Sweet!
2) Thinking on it a bit more, you realize that, at d12+2 base (and you're only going to put more feats into her Arcane), you won't be failing her arcane checks that often, making the power seem pretty mediocre. This is what I was thinking until I had been playing her for a while and hit the third level:
3) You will occasionally find yourself discarding spells for reasons other than casting them, but Amaryllis can then attempt to recharge them later in the turn. The most obvious is a failed combat check, but since you can recharge any spell in her discard pile that you can pass the check on (and twice a turn, at that), you'll find yourself discarding spells for other reasons far more frequently than you would with another character (which means sometimes instead of never lol). Discard to move to the Temple? Find an Enchanter? Need to draw that one card, and so want to discard a lot when resetting your hand?
It's a cool power. I actually like it better than Seoni's auto-recharge power, now that I've played it.
Beyond that, there's not a lot to go over with Amaryllis. She's an Arcane spellcaster with those two abilities to set her aside. They're good ones, though. She plays more like a wizard than a sorcerer with the high number of spells and lack of a built in spell as a power, but that's not too big an issue; some might even prefer it. If you liked Ezren more than Seoni due to having lots of spells in your deck instead of a few and an attack spell on demand, look into Amaryllis. If you do, and you prefer the Sorcerer's Class Deck to the Wizard's Class Deck, this may be the perfect solution for you.
Orbis' Judgement: Solid Arcane spellcaster, probably even ahead of the curve. Will definitely look into playing her anytime I feel like playing a non-bard Arcane spellcaster (I prefer Divine casters).
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Well, I hope you enjoyed that or found it helpful. I might do it again if enough people do.
Feel free to discuss or even debate my conclusions, or share your own. :)
Interesting side note: the S&S play-test took place and was over before Restoration was released, so it's not something we simple play-testers could have tried to balance for. I have no idea if it'll make it into future S&S releases though, so your combo *might* be tempered by it not being in S&S somewhat.
In the play-test, I really wanted to like Lini, since I am a huge fan of her RotR version. The S&S version is quite distinct by design, but I think you've identified her best strategies for S&S. The setting for S&S is much more "low-magic" and at least during the play-test the cards largely represented that, though this may have been somewhat changed for the release. You'll just have to wait and see how many toads (if any) you can find in S&S ;)
It's sort of funny... in RotR I was never much of a fan of Lem, but I loved Lini. In S&S that was reversed. At least good old Valeros is basically the same ;)
Interesting side note: the S&S play-test took place and was over before Restoration was released, so it's not something we simple play-testers could have tried to balance for. I have no idea if it'll make it into future S&S releases though, so your combo *might* be tempered by it not being in S&S somewhat.
In the play-test, I really wanted to like Lini, since I am a huge fan of her RotR version. The S&S version is quite distinct by design, but I think you've identified her best strategies for S&S. The setting for S&S is much more "low-magic" and at least during the play-test the cards largely represented that, though this may have been somewhat changed for the release. You'll just have to wait and see how many toads (if any) you can find in S&S ;)
It's sort of funny... in RotR I was never much of a fan of Lem, but I loved Lini. In S&S that was reversed. At least good old Valeros is basically the same ;)
I think that, good as it is, it's tempered enough already to not require a fix. You see, Lini herself doesn't actually do anything in this build. It's like, I don't know, adding her ups the difficulty (more locations, fewer turns per player available) without giving you another character to play with - instead, your other charcters get a boost.
But most importantly, she's just terrible until you get the combo available or even during the scenario until it gets going. She must have failed a fifth of her combat checks, and wasn't particularly good at other checks due to the lack of the d4+x. If she could play a lot of spells things might be different - Honestly, it would make more sense if the two Lini's had their Cards Lists swapped.
As to the toads, there are none in S&S. Toad is Pre-AP level and we've had access to knowledge of all of S&S's Pre-AP cards.
Resto could still make it into S&S, but without Toad, I'd rather play Resto on someone else; it's the top-decking of Toad that makes this so good.
I think they should have let her keep the reveal for d4 ability - and just not given it any power feats (only +1d4, no +1d4+x)
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I like the S&S Lem as well as the RotR, but I think the RotR one is better in the long run; I'd put CD Lem above him until the role card for being able to help his own checks, but once RotR Lem can do it too (Virtuoso role) I think he pulls ahead.
This at least in part because of the 4-6 spells vs 3-4.
XD
Thinking in the RotR playing mindset, I'd agree with you about the Lems. However, don't underestimate how clutch an extra 1d4 (with static modifiers) to ANYONE's check will be in S&S. In RotR, if your character failed a Wis/Con/Int check, usually the worst that happened was that you'd not acquire a card or another check would get mildly more difficult. Not so in S&S.
S&S Lini is still useful to have around for casting those cures, but in all honesty, I quit playing her before the end of the playtest in favor of Damiel. But some people will still like the New Lini quite a bit, so just make sure that you guys give her a chance before immediately tossing her aside because of the comparison to RotR Lini (who is, let's face it... probably TOO powerful in the long run).
We have a list of all non-promo cards for S&S. Definitely no Toad or Restoration, though there could be similar cards.
Thinking in the RotR playing mindset, I'd agree with you about the Lems. However, don't underestimate how clutch an extra 1d4 (with static modifiers) to ANYONE's check will be in S&S. In RotR, if your character failed a Wis/Con/Int check, usually the worst that happened was that you'd not acquire a card or another check would get mildly more difficult. Not so in S&S.
Remember, they can both help others, and after the role card they can both help themselves.
In the mean time, there's always Find Traps or blessings or whatever.
The bards are supposed to be helpers, not in the limelight themselves. You can get them to be in the limelight - I wouldn't have liked Lem if you couldn't - but you have to be careful about how you do it, and it may be a slow process (such as needing a role card to do it).
S&S Lini is still useful to have around for casting those cures, but in all honesty, I quit playing her before the end of the playtest in favor of Damiel. But some people will still like the New Lini quite a bit, so just make sure that you guys give her a chance before immediately tossing her aside because of the comparison to RotR Lini (who is, let's face it... probably TOO powerful in the long run).
I'm not comparing her to RotR Lini too much. I agree, RotR Lini was kinda nuts, but S&S Lini is off the bell curve in the other direction (without Resto or something similiarly crazy and Toad). I'm comparing her not just to RotR Lini but all the characters I've played. There is nothing she does other than this combo that someone else doesn't do better. I seriously see no reason at all to take S&S Lini over a few of the other characters pbarring powerful animal ally exploits like Toad.
Forget about exploits like Toad for a second - is there any reason to take her over a standard bard, for instance? Comparable statlines, gameplay roles, and so on, but your standard bard has better powers.
I don't know. I'm just not seeing it.
...That being said, boy is she fun with Toads and Resto's. :D
We have a list of all non-promo cards for S&S. Definitely no Toad or Restoration, though there could be similar cards.
No Resto makes me a sad panda.
You know, I think I've seen that before and realized that there were no Resto's... but I forgot, and now I'm eating the disappointment all over again...
T.T
I've done two single-character Runelords runs with Flenta now: a partial one up to Into the Mountains, which I stopped because I took the Arcane +2 power, which I felt was undesirable after testing it for a while; and a second all the way through the campaign.
Pre-role, she was pretty much what I expected: being a fighter, she outclasses Runelords Lini for ease of combat -- which doesn't change post-role -- but her mediocre non-combat abilities give her trouble in some spots. Here Comes the Flood was especially problematic for me during the second run, although it also didn't help that I rolled 4s quite often for Magga.
I found Force Missile, Lightning Touch and Acid Arrow pains in the neck. In the first run, I took the Arcane +2 power ASAP, but it really doesn't help. I don't think I'd take it again unless I didn't want hand size 7 during adventure 3 for some reason.
The other spells had their moments, but aren't really things I'd like to be casting all the way through adventure 6. Maybe Shackles' spell pool will be better for that; if not, I can't see taking Martial Adept.
Post-role as an Arcane Pretender, I pretty much thrashed everything. Being able to recharge spells for check bonuses took care of many problems handily, although it didn't prevent me from needing blessings on some higher-end checks.
It was especial fun taking Karzoug down with a 3d10 + 6d4 + 14 swipe of the runeforged Fanged Falchion. Tragically, my highest spell by the end was deck 5, or else I might've been able to get that up to +15.
Once I actually get the class deck, I may run a party of Flenta, Lem, Lini and Seelah through Runelords, just for kicks.
Skills - Strength +4, Intelligence +1, Wisdom +1
Powers - Hand Size 7, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Combat Recharge, Non-Combat Recharge, Item Auto-Recharge, Item Auto-Acquire
Cards - Weapon +1, Armor +1, Item +2, Ally +1, Blessing +1
Fanged Falchion, Flaming Ranseur +3, Greatclub +3, Mokmurian's Club, Runechill Hatchet +2
Blizzard, Mass Cure, Poison Blast
Breastplate of Fire Resistance, Magic Full Plate
Emerald Codex, Masterwork Tools, Revelation Quill, Sihedron Medallion, Sihedron Ring
Father Zantus, Sage
Blessing of Abadar, Blessing of Gorum, Blessing of Irori, Blessing of Shelyn
Remember, they can both help others, and after the role card they can both help themselves.In the mean time, there's always Find Traps or blessings or whatever.
The bards are supposed to be helpers, not in the limelight themselves. You can get them to be in the limelight - I wouldn't have liked Lem if you couldn't - but you have to be careful about how you do it, and it may be a slow process (such as needing a role card to do it).
What I really meant was that, although Lem is perfectly helpful in RotR, I never felt his help was needed all that much; there were usually plenty of other ways of getting around difficulties and as I mentioned, failing off-skill checks was generally not very drastic. Why I like Lem in in S&S is because his power is generally more helpful (and necessary ) then many of the alternatives. Non-combat, non-dexterity checks are smeared all over S&S, with plenty of characters who have 30% odds of making those checks WITH a blessing played. Lem helped me, quite literally, stay afloat.
I'm not comparing her to RotR Lini too much. I agree, RotR Lini was kinda nuts, but S&S Lini is off the bell curve in the other direction (without Resto or something similiarly crazy and Toad). I'm comparing her not just to RotR Lini but all the characters I've played. There is nothing she does other than this combo that someone else doesn't do better. I seriously see no reason at all to take S&S Lini over a few of the other characters pbarring powerful animal ally exploits like Toad.Forget about exploits like Toad for a second - is there any reason to take her over a standard bard, for instance? Comparable statlines, gameplay roles, and so on, but your standard bard has better powers.
I don't know. I'm just not...
It's probably important to remember that while the designers are certainly interested in balancing new characters somewhat when compared to the existing ones, they're also often at least as concerned with translating a certain character/class from the RPG to PACG to preserve the overall feeling of the RPG. I myself am not always a fan of that approach, but then I've never played the RPG much either. I'm sure that is important to more than few players; I really only care about the balance of the card game, as I don't feel like it does much to tell the RPG story anyway. As far as I'm concerned the two are separate enough and doing enough different things that trying to preserve the flavor of the RPG should not take precedence over game-play topics like power, fun and balance. But again, to each their own.
I hope you enjoyed that or found it helpful. I might do it again if enough people do.
I found it very useful. More of these play experiences from people would be greatly appreciated by the designers.
I've done two single-character Runelords runs with Flenta now
Holy crap you run a lot of armor.
What I really meant was that, although Lem is perfectly helpful in RotR, I never felt his help was needed all that much; there were usually plenty of other ways of getting around difficulties and as I mentioned, failing off-skill checks was generally not very drastic. Why I like Lem in in S&S is because his power is generally more helpful (and necessary ) then many of the alternatives. Non-combat, non-dexterity checks are smeared all over S&S, with plenty of characters who have 30% odds of making those checks WITH a blessing played. Lem helped me, quite literally, stay afloat.
Ah, so you're saying "The recharge to add 1d4 Lems are better in S&S than they are in RotR." I was saying "In the long run, The Lem (singular) from RotR is probably better than the Lem from S&S, regardless of which AP you play them in."
It's probably important to remember that while the designers are certainly interested in balancing new characters somewhat when compared to the existing ones, they're also often at least as concerned with translating a certain character/class from the RPG to PACG to preserve the overall feeling of the RPG. I myself am not always a fan of that approach, but then I've never played the RPG much either. I'm sure that is important to more than few players; I really only care about the balance of the card game, as I don't feel like it does much to tell the RPG story anyway. As far as I'm concerned the two are separate enough and doing enough different things that trying to preserve the flavor of the RPG should not take precedence over game-play topics like power, fun and balance. But again, to each their own.
I agree. I don't feel (granted I'm not a designer) that it's too hard to do both, however.
I hope you enjoyed that or found it helpful. I might do it again if enough people do.I found it very useful. More of these play experiences from people would be greatly appreciated by the designers.
Glad to hear it. :)
Holy crap you run a lot of armor.
Eh, normally I prefer three damage reduction cards, tops; but in this case I picked up the Sihedron Ring early in adventure 6 and replaced my Staff of Minor Healing with it, because I knew the staff would be nearly useless for me at the very end. Then I failed to get an additional useful item at any point afterwards, including from the Assault on the Pinnacle reward, even though I took special care to defeat as many banes as possible there -- heck, I purposely encountered The Thing From Beyond Time.
It was kind of funny, though: I also picked up the Ring of Energy Resistance during Into the Eye.
Holy crap you run a lot of armor.Eh, normally I prefer three damage reduction cards
I like one at most lol
I like one at most lol
Whatever works. :P
Either way, I imagine the end results are pretty close.