Tiny vs. Medium with reach weapon


Rules Questions


5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

If someone could please let me know if I'm handling this correctly.

A tiny creature is attacking a medium creature armed with a reach weapon. The tiny creature has to enter the medium creature's square to attack. It does. The medium takes a 5 foot step back. Now this is where it gets sticky for me.

As it is a 5 foot step, he doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity from the tiny creature. Also, he can't attack with his armed reach weapon either. Am I right so far?

Now, if the tiny creature wants to close again, can it take a 5' step into the medium creature's square without threatening an AoO?


By strict rules it has to be "does not provoke". The rules for Tiny creatures say "They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent." This isn't for leaving a threatened square, it's for entering the opponent's square. However 5-foot step says "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." so I don't think a 5-foot step can ever provoke.

Liberty's Edge

It provoke, but the medium creature with the reach weapon can't attack unless he has some alternate weapon.


In this example, the medium creature with a reach weapon would need to threaten with something other than the reach weapon to take advantage of the provocation.

But there are many other situations that are poorly covered by the rules when it comes to Tiny creatures, such as (just off the top of my head):

1) Does the "5 ft step doesn't provoke" trump the "enter square provokes"?
2) Tiny creatures with reach weapons (yes, I know 0x2=0... but this is silly) Also, tiny whips.
3) How acrobatics works in conjunction with tiny creatures entering squares.
4) A tiny creature can enter a small or medium sized creature's square, but a small or medium creature can't enter a tiny sized creature's square. (subject to 3 size category difference)
5) Tiny vs tiny sized creature combat is very poorly covered in general.
6) Tiny creatures and flanking. For instance, two tiny creatures within opposite squares of a huge creature's space... do they flank? (compare with two small sized creatures on either side of a gargantuan creature)
6) The general oddness that small creatures take the same amount of space as large creatures. Tiny creatures should really be able to fight small creatures with the same ease that a small creature can fight a medium creature.
7) The lack of pricing for tiny sized weapons. This is not some super-obscure edge case. There's a decent number of situations where tiny weapon are useful.
8) Many powers and effects call for a creature to move adjacent to a foe and then make a melee attack. Does a tiny creature enter their square instead?

I don't think the excuse of "combat is designed around small and medium pcs" is enough to justify ignoring these issues. Would it really be that hard to add half a page in one of the bestiaries or in one of the hundreds of supplements to cover this a bit better?

Sczarni

Or a blog, at least.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

If a tiny creature moves through a threatened area and enters the square of a medium creature (or any creature above tiny size) he provokes twice, once for moving within or out of a threatened square and once for entering the square occupied.

The first, moving in the threatening area, can be countered by a 5' step.

The second, entering an occupied square, provokes unless some other factor prevents the creature from making an AoO, like invisibility, stealth, lack of a weapon, or in the above example using a reach weapon.


But that's directly at odds with the line from 5-foot step which says "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity."

To quote the relevant rules:

d20pfsrd wrote:

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

You can't provoke for entering a square as part of a 5-foot step because a 5-foot step can't provoke.

Liberty's Edge

The 5 foot step doesn't provoke. Entering the square does. This is analagous to someone charging an opponent who is holding a reach weapon. The charge doesn't provoke, but leaving the square threatened by the reach weapon does.


Are you saying the line "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." only refers to the act of initiating the 5-foot step? Because if so, you still provoke for moving out of a threatened square (if you do so). Which is clearly not the intent of the ability. If the moving out of a threatened square doesn't provoke because it's part of the 5-foot step, why isn't entering the opponent's square covered by the same rules? Nothing in the text says "does not provoke for movement", it just says "does not provoke".

Liberty's Edge

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Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Are you saying the line "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." only refers to the act of initiating the 5-foot step? Because if so, you still provoke for moving out of a threatened square (if you do so). Which is clearly not the intent of the ability. If the moving out of a threatened square doesn't provoke because it's part of the 5-foot step, why isn't entering the opponent's square covered by the same rules? Nothing in the text says "does not provoke for movement", it just says "does not provoke".
PRD - Attacks of Opportunity wrote:
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

It is fairly clear that the 5 fott step work only for the movement part when moving away from a threatened square.

PRD - Take 5-Foot Step wrote:

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

Again, it speak of moving.

When moving provoke an AoO? When you you move away from a threatened square.

PRD - Moving Through a Square wrote:


Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.
...
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures have a special rule that allow them to move into a square occupied by a non helpless opponent. The same special rule say that that provoke an AoO that is separated from that provoked by the act of moving away from a threatened square.

The first citation explain that the 5' step only work for the AoO generated by moving out of a threatened square. Not for other actions.


Or moving into an opponent's square. That's movement that provokes. And your first Citation doesn't nothing to limit it like you say it does. It's giving one use of it. Not the only use.

Liberty's Edge

Byakko wrote:

In this example, the medium creature with a reach weapon would need to threaten with something other than the reach weapon to take advantage of the provocation.

But there are many other situations that are poorly covered by the rules when it comes to Tiny creatures, such as (just off the top of my head):

1) Does the "5 ft step doesn't provoke" trump the "enter square provokes"?

Yes, see the above post, specific rule against general rule.

Byakko wrote:


2) Tiny creatures with reach weapons (yes, I know 0x2=0... but this is silly) Also, tiny whips.

Why it is sill? Because you don't like it?

As long as we use 5' squares as our unit of measurement adding another foot of reach to a creature with 1' reach don't allow it to attack outside its square.

Byakko wrote:


3) How acrobatics works in conjunction with tiny creatures entering squares.

As for any other creature entering a square:

PRD wrote:

In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5. If you attempt to move through an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.

Situation Base Acrobatics DC*
Move through a threatened area Opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense
Move through an enemy's space 5 + opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense

Byakko wrote:


4) A tiny creature can enter a small or medium sized creature's square, but a small or medium creature can't enter a tiny sized creature's square. (subject to 3 size category difference)

Specific rule for specific size. Exactly what is the problem? My 1 month old cat can enter my square and climb me, I have problem entering her square without stepping on her.

Byakko wrote:


5) Tiny vs tiny sized creature combat is very poorly covered in general.

Yes, because they are outside the base scale of the game: if you really need rules for that you simply change the scale to 1' increments, give the tiny creature 1' reach and then adapt the normal rules to the new scale..

Byakko wrote:


6) Tiny creatures and flanking. For instance, two tiny creatures within opposite squares of a huge creature's space... do they flank? (compare with two small sized creatures on either side of a gargantuan creature)

Tiny creatures normally don't threaten outside their square, so they can't flank.

Byakko wrote:


6) The general oddness that small creatures take the same amount of space as large creatures. Tiny creatures should really be able to fight small creatures with the same ease that a small creature can fight a medium creature.

Actually medium creature take the same amount of space as small creatures, not large creatures.

Byakko wrote:


7) The lack of pricing for tiny sized weapons. This is not some super-obscure edge case. There's a decent number of situations where tiny weapon are useful.

They are sometime useful to adventurers. A tiny fraction of the populace that can find them useful in a small number of situations.

So you will not find tiny weapons in a weapon smith shop, probably you can find them in one out of teen curio shops in a big city. Unless you are playing in a campaign with a large number of tiny creatures there is no reason for a shop to have them, they will be custom build items and priced as something custom build, i.e. priced by the GM as he see fit.
If you are playing in a campaign with a large number of tiny creatures you are playing in a non standard setting and it part of the GM job to decide how those things work in his setting.

Byakko wrote:


8) Many powers and effects call for a creature to move adjacent to a foe and then make a melee attack. Does a tiny creature enter their square instead?

Depend on the power. It it require to touch the target creature, yes they need to enter it.

If it has a range you use the range. Adjacent squares is a range.

Byakko wrote:


I don't think the excuse of "combat is designed around small and medium pcs" is enough to justify ignoring these issues. Would it really be that hard to add half a page in one of the bestiaries or in one of the hundreds of supplements to cover this a bit better?

LOL. Yes, because it wouldn't be "half a page". You speak of a campaign based around tiny creatures. At that point you need to redo the CRB.

The best solution is to change the scale of the game, treating the size of what is the standard creature in the campaign as the new basis for the medium creature and then adapting your game about the new scale.

Liberty's Edge

Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Are you saying the line "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." only refers to the act of initiating the 5-foot step? Because if so, you still provoke for moving out of a threatened square (if you do so). Which is clearly not the intent of the ability. If the moving out of a threatened square doesn't provoke because it's part of the 5-foot step, why isn't entering the opponent's square covered by the same rules? Nothing in the text says "does not provoke for movement", it just says "does not provoke".

The 5 foot step does not provoke. What you're doing with the 5 foot step does. This sort of thing happens in multiple parts of the game. Charging through a threatened square, casting a ranged touch attack spell defensively. These are examples. 5 foot step into an opponents square is another. These aren't the only ones.


Howie23 wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Are you saying the line "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." only refers to the act of initiating the 5-foot step? Because if so, you still provoke for moving out of a threatened square (if you do so). Which is clearly not the intent of the ability. If the moving out of a threatened square doesn't provoke because it's part of the 5-foot step, why isn't entering the opponent's square covered by the same rules? Nothing in the text says "does not provoke for movement", it just says "does not provoke".
The 5 foot step does not provoke. What you're doing with the 5 foot step does. This sort of thing happens in multiple parts of the game. Charging through a threatened square, casting a ranged touch attack spell defensively. These are examples. 5 foot step into an opponents square is another. These aren't the only ones.

So, just to be clear, you are saying that a 5-foot step provokes for leaving a threatened square? Because that's "what you're doing with a 5-foot step", and it normally provokes.

That seems to contradict the language in other parts that a 5-foot step doesn't provoke for movement.

Liberty's Edge

Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Howie23 wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Are you saying the line "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." only refers to the act of initiating the 5-foot step? Because if so, you still provoke for moving out of a threatened square (if you do so). Which is clearly not the intent of the ability. If the moving out of a threatened square doesn't provoke because it's part of the 5-foot step, why isn't entering the opponent's square covered by the same rules? Nothing in the text says "does not provoke for movement", it just says "does not provoke".
The 5 foot step does not provoke. What you're doing with the 5 foot step does. This sort of thing happens in multiple parts of the game. Charging through a threatened square, casting a ranged touch attack spell defensively. These are examples. 5 foot step into an opponents square is another. These aren't the only ones.

So, just to be clear, you are saying that a 5-foot step provokes for leaving a threatened square? Because that's "what you're doing with a 5-foot step", and it normally provokes.

That seems to contradict the language in other parts that a 5-foot step doesn't provoke for movement.

No, to be clear, I am not saying that it provokes for leaving a threatened square. I am saying that entering an opponent's quare provokes, and that the 5-foot step doesn't negate that.


There are only two ways the rules can work here. Either "5-foot step" the action never provokes but what you do with it can provoke, or no part of the movement taken during a 5-foot step provokes.

If only the act doesn't provoke (like charge not provoking for the charge itself but still provoking for movement and combat maneuvers) then you still provoke for leaving a threatened square and entering an opponent's square. The leaving a threatened square is not part of "5-foot step" the action, it's part of a movement of 5 feet the action gives you.

If the action of moving 5 feet granted by a 5-foot step never provokes then you don't provoke for leaving a threatened square and don't provoke for entering an opponent's square.

I will accept that either of these two interpretations could be correct based on "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity.", but unless you can show me a flaw in the logic then I'll never believe that leaving threatened squares doesn't provoke but entering an opponent's square suddenly does. The line on moving into an opponent's square even says "Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so." So moving into an opponent's square is what provokes.

Liberty's Edge

Let's picture a tiny creature with a speed of 20. He marches up, using the move action called move, and enters a small creature's square to attack him. He has made one action, move. He has provoked two AoOs. One for exiting a threatened square. The second is for entering an opponent's square. If the small opponent has Combat Reflexes, he can take two AoOs on the tiny creature; there has be one action, and movement only provokes once. Yet there are two opportunities: one for exiting the square and one for entering an opponent's square. This second opportunity, while requiring movement to achieve, is due not to the movement itself, but due to the entirety of, "entering an opponent's square."

When taking a five foot step to enter opponent's square, the tiny critter has negated the first AoO, the one for exiting a threatened square. This is one of the two ways of negating the AoO from exiting a threatened square. All is well and good. However, the critter has not negated the second opportunity, the one provided by, "entering an opponent's square."

There are two things that provoke AoOs. These are leaving a threatened square, and the other is performing a distracting act in a threatened square. The second AoO is due to the distracting act of "entering an opponent's space." It is not due to leaving a threatened square. It is not die to movement. It is due to "entering an opponent's square."

The quote marks above are solely for highlighting the phrase I have used. It is not citing a rules source.

For anyone who gives credence to 3.5 rulings and such in understanding Pathfinder, see the table on the first few pages of the Rules Compendium; this calls out in detail that there are two AoOs provoked.

The error in your logic is in separating the act of a five foot step from the movement of the five foot step. Instead, separate the movement of the five foot step from the distracting act.

This is as full as an explanation as I'm going to give. If it doesn't do the job for you, that's cool. My motive here isn't to personally persuade you. Good Gaming!!!


"Leaving a threatened square" is part of the movement but "entering an opponent's square" is not?

Yeah, I'm gonna FAQ this one.

Liberty's Edge

blahpers wrote:
"Leaving a threatened square" is part of the movement but "entering an opponent's square" is not?

I didn't say that, and went well out of my way to avoid doing so. But, if that's what you get out of it, so be it.


Howie23 wrote:
blahpers wrote:
"Leaving a threatened square" is part of the movement but "entering an opponent's square" is not?
I didn't say that, and went well out of my way to avoid doing so. But, if that's what you get out of it, so be it.

Sorry, I should have quoted the response I was referring to.


Yes, there is an error in your logic.

Bob wrote:
If only the act doesn't provoke (like charge not provoking for the charge itself but still provoking for movement and combat maneuvers) then you still provoke for leaving a threatened square and entering an opponent's square. The leaving a threatened square is not part of "5-foot step" the action, it's part of a movement of 5 feet the action gives you.

This is the case, when the 5-foot step says "it never provokes" it means the 5-foot action does not generate an attack of opportunity by itself. Never. It does not say the outcomes of your 5-foot step action cannot provoke AoO.

Now we have entering into an opponents square generates. And the rule doesn't say entering with a 5-foot step negates that AoO.

Then, we know leaving a threatened square also provokes an AoO. But, there is an error in your quote, the leaving a threatened square specifically states by taking a 5-foot step you negate the AoO when going out of the square.

Combat wrote:

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Thus:

- 5-foot step never provokes AoO. Rule
- Leaving a threatened square with a 5-foot step does not provoke an AoO. Rule
- Entering an occupied square generates an attack of opportunity, independently if you do so using a 5-foot step or teleporting there, as there is no exception for it. Rule

I hope that clears out this I would admit an easily misleading topic.
For full rules description and links, visit this question:
Does moving into an opponent's square generate an Attack of Opportunity when you do so with a 5-foot step?


Uh, you mean the question where one person says "yes it does provoke" and the second person says "no it doesn't provoke"? If you're going to link to something to "end" this thread, perhaps it shouldn't be exactly this thread.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Uh, you mean the question where one person says "yes it does provoke" and the second person says "no it doesn't provoke"? If you're going to link to something to "end" this thread, perhaps it shouldn't be exactly this thread.

I just want to note in that thread the answer saying PROVOKES is well developed and justified and has currently 5 votes in front of the question saying NO which was earlier given and still has 0 votes.

I think a better developed answer can be given, but the main ideas on the why are either on that thread and in my answer above.

I will not blame you as this is not super clear in the rules and myself I early thought you can avoid all AoO just by 5-foot step, until I was pointed to carefully re-read al the rules concerning 5-foot steps.

Sovereign Court

tiny things with reach weapons... not a feasible build in my opinion until such time paizo blogs about it... ;)

Sovereign Court

i.e. tiny reach = no reach... t'would be like saying a mosquito with an extra long proboscis can bite you before you swat him... don't care if the proboscis is 6 times his length... my 5-foot reach is infinitely longer than his.

Sczarni

A mosquito would be fine-sized.

We're talking about tiny-sized.


James Jacobs wrote:
Game speak for "DOUBLE" doesn't really mean "twice as much." A creature that's Tiny and has a reach of 0 feet who uses a reach weapon would basically go up to the next stage of reach: 5 feet. Something smaller than Tiny would, at the most, go up to Tiny's level of reach—weapons smaller than those wielded by Tiny creatures, therefore, never have reach.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz27rc?Do-tiny-reach-weapons-provide-reach#4

Sovereign Court

Nefreet wrote:

A mosquito would be fine-sized.

We're talking about tiny-sized.

same difference

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