I thought I would throw out my house rule for rolling hit points into the ring.
A character gets max hit points at first level. After first level the player keeps rolling the hit die, adding the points rolled, until the total is maxed out or goes over. If a roll results in the total going over then the previous total is the hit points used.
Example: a character's hit die is a d10. The player's first roll is a 2 so she rolls again. The second roll is a 5 that is added to the 2 for a total of 7. The third roll is a 4 making the total an 11. The third roll is over 10 so the character gets 7 hit points.
This gives the players a better chance at a decent hit point and there's less whining when they roll a 1.
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Typically when I've rolled hit dice on occasions where avg is not used, we used "Greedy rolls"
You can keep rolling dice as long as you roll >= last die rolled. So if you roll a 2, then a 7, you can keep the 7, but if you roll again and get a 5, you have to keep the 5.
I think I like your rule better though, less chance of being greedy biting you in the ass
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Why not just use the average HP rule?
Why not just use the average HP rule?
Because rolling hit dice is more fun?
Also, if you play the odds right you can get some pretty high hp values.
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I do it a bit different. We got really tired of the way hit points were handled and the low survivability of low-level characters, so I was tasked with solving the problem (as GM). It is really simple, too.
We use average hit point gains per level, I just decided to "front load" it instead of the "standard" method. My players gain maximum hit die at 1st level + Consitution modifier + 10 and average hit points (rounded down) based on their hit die + Constitution for each level thereafter. Here's an example:
Bobgoblin the sorcerer gets 1d6 hit die per level. Assume Bobgoblin has a Constitution of 12 (+1 modifier). At 1st level, Bobgoblin gains 7 hit points due to hit die and modifier - to this total he adds 10 for a total of 17 hit points at 1st level.; at each level thereafter he gains 3 + his Constitution modifier.
Where does the +10 bonus hit points come from? At each level after first, Bobgoblin normally gains 3.5 hit points. This means he gains 3 hit points at even levels and 4 hit points at odd levels using the average. All I've done is remove the .5 he gains each level (to 20th), added a bonus of +0.5, which totals 10, and given it to him at 1st level instead of over the course of all 20. It has worked out great and I've "given" them absolutely nothing (okay, I gave them +0.5 hit points, but still!). I do the same for NPCs with class levels, but not monsters or run-of-the-mill NPCs.
I think your method is fun, far more "fun" than mine (I like the gambling style component). It doesn't really improve the odds of survival, however.
We do max 1st level.
The other one we have tried is rolled die + Con (not Con mod) - that tends to come out about what you do Da'ath, maybe a little higher as we tend to run somewhat higher Ability scores.
Every level after first we allow rolling with advantage (to use 5E D&D speak). Roll 2 dice and take the better of the two.
We do use the downtime "up hit point" training rules in Ultimate Campaign.
Personally I don't like avg HP because wizard's HP is barely any different from a Barbarian's. 3 extra hp per level is barely a difference.
I've been thinking, what if avg hit dice was max hit dice - X (where X might be 3 or 2)? That would double the difference between a Barbarian's HP per level and a Wizards.
Personally I don't like avg HP because wizard's HP is barely any different from a Barbarian's. 3 extra hp per level is barely a difference.
I consider that a good thing. Makes it easier to have opponents who can challenge both, without either being 'wizard is hurt, barbarian laughs' or 'barbarian is hurt, wizard is dead'.
I allow players to reroll until they get above average on the die. So a d8 would be rerolled until you roll 5 to 8. Nothing ruins a high hit die character like a string of crappy hit point rolls, so I started doing this.
Personally I don't like avg HP because wizard's HP is barely any different from a Barbarian's. 3 extra hp per level is barely a difference.I consider that a good thing. Makes it easier to have opponents who can challenge both, without either being 'wizard is hurt, barbarian laughs' or 'barbarian is hurt, wizard is dead'.
Yes, but who is consistently in the line of fire? Barbarian has a d12 hit die to reflect the role of the class.
At level 10, a 30 hit point difference is marginal, that is a difference of what, one basic attack? Maybe a little more or less. And that's a 20 hp difference for your standard 1d10 fighting class. That just doesn't feel like "enough" in my opinion. Especially since a Barbarian is looking at a lot more potential HP damage then a wizard.
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Jeez it's like listening to folks who don't do 3d6 straight down the line for generating a characters ability scores when not using point buy. Coddling your players, tisk tisk. You aren't really adhering to the spirit of rolling for hit points if you're just giving them average+1d4 every level. Seriously some of you may as well speed up play by giving characters max hit points for some of these systems as it sounds like they aren't that far off anyway. Also aren't you lessening the importance of a good constitution score by having every level be such a huge pile of free points?
Alright, as for the proposed house rule: do the people you game with actually do a good job of keeping track of information in your games?
Story elements, coins, NPC names, encumbrance, character sheets, notes, game start times, and that sort of thing? If not then perhaps giving them one more thing to keep track of might not be the best idea. That would be my initial worry with something like what you're proposing. At least beyond just not actually having the risk/reward of properly rolling for hit points.
Max hit points at first level (a carryover from 3.5 apparently).
Otherwise, I ask that hit points are rolled under GM supervision, and a roll of "1" does not count.
Oddly, no one ever has had a result of "1" for a hit die roll, yet plenty of people rolled a "2" and were stuck with it.
...not actually having the risk/reward of properly rolling for hit points.
Emphasis mine. Your opinion - your way - is the only proper one. Got it.
---------------Re: Lord Mhoram - Your method is great, as it solves the problem. I've also seen, as Star Wars Saga Edition (SWSE) does, max hit die * 3 + Con modifier at 1st level. All seek to solve the same problem in slightly different ways. =)
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Re: CommandoDude - It seems that way, at first. Just looking on paper, the difference in hit points seems marginal. When you add in the bonuses from Constitution modifiers and other sources, of which the barbarian is likely to have significantly more of, the differences begin to be quite evident. A wizard might have a Constitution of 12 or 14 - I've seen an occasional 16, but it is HIGHLY unlikely, in my experience, that the number ever changes. A barbarian, on the other hand, is much more likely to have a higher Constitution modifier or increase it through game play. Each time the barbarian rages, he gains between 2 (at 1st level) and 80 (at 20th) temporary hit points, which he can burn off with rage cycles.
It has worked quite well for us, though I certainly see the issue you have with the hit point difference.
One of the ideas I've been toying with for hit point generation:
(All assume Max hit points at first level)
Static:
d6 becomes 4+CON modifier/level
d8 becomes 6+CON modifier/level
d10 becomes 8+CON modifier/level
d12 becomes 10+CON modifer/level
But I like the idea of the greedy dice generation described above.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
I tried a bunch of different. Things. Average roll rounded up, normal rolls, roll and reroll if you get a 1... But it all felt kind of off to me. I've finally come to the point where I just have my players gain their max every level. The game finally feels right where the Barbarian has double the HP of the Wizard. Plus, I can throw fights out there that are slightly harder since everyone in the group has a larger HP pool. Level 2-4 critical hit deaths have become far less commonplace as well.
and here I just have people reroll is they roll below average...
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We've been going for max hit points at every level, both for PCs and for important NPCs/monsters.
It reduces critical-dead moments and makes high level play a bit less like a game of rocket tag. All-in-all we've been happy with it from 2nd through 16th level and starting another campaign with the same rules.
Cheers!
Landon
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...not actually having the risk/reward of properly rolling for hit points.Emphasis mine. Your opinion - your way - is the only proper one. Got it.
Da'ath, I suspect that Morgen was being sarcastic, channeling his inner grognard. (hence starting with "3d6 straight down the line") I could be wrong though.
I personally go with Doggan. Max HP is easy and reduces swinginess a bit.
For groups that prefer to roll HD, I "roll against" the player. We both roll, with my roll behind a screen. If they like their roll, they keep theirs. If they don't they can chance taking my roll. If they take my roll, they are stuck with it, even if I rolled lower than they did.
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Poe's law @above
I prefer just using the Pathfinder Society hp rules. It keeps it both simple and balanced.
I once played a barbarian and consistently rolled low for HP, and actually had one of the lowest HP totals in the party.
Why not just drop everyone's hit die one step, then give everybody the max each level?
Da'ath, I'm gonna steal your method for my games now. :3
I hope it works out as well for your group as it does for ours. Prior to this rule, we were having some major problems with the rolls, the luck (bad) some of us consistantly have, and gameplay.
...not actually having the risk/reward of properly rolling for hit points.Emphasis mine. Your opinion - your way - is the only proper one. Got it.Da'ath, I suspect that Morgen was being sarcastic, channeling his inner grognard. (hence starting with "3d6 straight down the line") I could be wrong though.
I personally go with Doggan. Max HP is easy and reduces swinginess a bit.
For groups that prefer to roll HD, I "roll against" the player. We both roll, with my roll behind a screen. If they like their roll, they keep theirs. If they don't they can chance taking my roll. If they take my roll, they are stuck with it, even if I rolled lower than they did.
I genuinely hope you're right and if you are, I'll happily apologize for misunderstanding.
We used maximum hit points for a time on several games pre-Pathfinder.
I once played a barbarian and consistently rolled low for HP, and actually had one of the lowest HP totals in the party.
One of the main reasons the adjustment was requested. Some people just have horrible, horrible luck (myself included in that, on the rare occasions that I play and not GM).
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It would depend on the particulars. My question to the original poster is incredibly valid about additional book keeping in their playgroup.
I am being sarcastic in areas but I do find it silly to restrict "rolled" hit points to only values above average when it is easier to just do average/true average/max/whatever and call it done. Turning a D10 hit die into d4+6 could easily just be called 8 and be done with.
There are advantages to using per-determined hit points as well when it comes to checking over math, you know how many hit points an X con fighter would have at level 8 and can notice if a player's total is too little or too much.
I always take half as the minimum you can get on a roll for hitpoints. I made this rule because I'm terrible at rolling for hitpoints so I usually end up with a very average hit point character.
I tried a bunch of different. Things. Average roll rounded up, normal rolls, roll and reroll if you get a 1... But it all felt kind of off to me. I've finally come to the point where I just have my players gain their max every level. The game finally feels right where the Barbarian has double the HP of the Wizard. Plus, I can throw fights out there that are slightly harder since everyone in the group has a larger HP pool. Level 2-4 critical hit deaths have become far less commonplace as well.
I am also with Doggan here. Mx hp every level is the rule currently used in our games, and we are greatly satisfacted with this: GM and players.
I tried a bunch of different. Things. Average roll rounded up, normal rolls, roll and reroll if you get a 1... But it all felt kind of off to me. I've finally come to the point where I just have my players gain their max every level. The game finally feels right where the Barbarian has double the HP of the Wizard. Plus, I can throw fights out there that are slightly harder since everyone in the group has a larger HP pool. Level 2-4 critical hit deaths have become far less commonplace as well.I am also with Doggan here. Mx hp every level is the rule currently used in our games, and we are greatly satisfacted with this: GM and players.
does this tend to give more or less weight to save or suck spells?
does this tend to give more or less weight to save or suck spells?I tried a bunch of different. Things. Average roll rounded up, normal rolls, roll and reroll if you get a 1... But it all felt kind of off to me. I've finally come to the point where I just have my players gain their max every level. The game finally feels right where the Barbarian has double the HP of the Wizard. Plus, I can throw fights out there that are slightly harder since everyone in the group has a larger HP pool. Level 2-4 critical hit deaths have become far less commonplace as well.I am also with Doggan here. Mx hp every level is the rule currently used in our games, and we are greatly satisfacted with this: GM and players.
Save or suck spells are not really an issue for us, since we use alternate rules, making such spells harder to hit at full effect.
Save or suck spells are not really an issue for us, since we use alternate rules, making such spells harder to hit at full effect.does this tend to give more or less weight to save or suck spells?I tried a bunch of different. Things. Average roll rounded up, normal rolls, roll and reroll if you get a 1... But it all felt kind of off to me. I've finally come to the point where I just have my players gain their max every level. The game finally feels right where the Barbarian has double the HP of the Wizard. Plus, I can throw fights out there that are slightly harder since everyone in the group has a larger HP pool. Level 2-4 critical hit deaths have become far less commonplace as well.I am also with Doggan here. Mx hp every level is the rule currently used in our games, and we are greatly satisfacted with this: GM and players.
What rules did you use? I've been trying to cripple save/suck.
does this tend to give more or less weight to save or suck spells?I tried a bunch of different. Things. Average roll rounded up, normal rolls, roll and reroll if you get a 1... But it all felt kind of off to me. I've finally come to the point where I just have my players gain their max every level. The game finally feels right where the Barbarian has double the HP of the Wizard. Plus, I can throw fights out there that are slightly harder since everyone in the group has a larger HP pool. Level 2-4 critical hit deaths have become far less commonplace as well.I am also with Doggan here. Mx hp every level is the rule currently used in our games, and we are greatly satisfacted with this: GM and players.
I've found my players using save or suck spells a little less. Front line characters aren't wary about wading into combat quite as much, and the Oracle has had time to get up and actually heal during combat (I know, blasphemy) instead of just blowing hold person all over the place. From my GM perspective, I don't use save or sucks any more or less often, and they're still painful when landed on multiple people.
The one thing I have noticed is that this HP system has allowed some of the d8 classes to feel like they're more able to take the place of a d10 class in toe-to-toe combat.
What rules did you use? I've been trying to cripple save/suck.
For Death spells and effects, targets must make two saving throws in a roll. If the target fails the first saving throw, it steps immediatelly to the dying condition (-1 hp) and must make a second Fort Save to avoid death.
For Baleful Polymorph, we also use a similar mechanic demanding 2 saving throws in a roll. If the target fails the first Fort saving throw, it assumes the animal form for 1 round and must make a second Fort Save to avoid becoming permanently trapped in the animal form.
Finally, for Base Saves, we use a house rule that all classes have all Base Saves Progression (Fort, Ref, Will) equal to ½ their character level. Instead of a better save progression, each Class receives a "flat bonus" of +2 on its good save (e.g. Fighters get a +2 Bonus on Fort Saves). This makes sense, since Spell Save DC is also equal to 10 + ½ spellcaster's level + key ability modifier (Int or Wis). So both Saves and Spell Saves DCs progress equaly.
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What rules did you use? I've been trying to cripple save/suck.
For my group, we reached a sort of mutual disarmament agreement.
Everyone would rather battles last longer than a round and, for the players, not have to sit their for a whole battle because of one failed save.
So they stopped using them and I stripped them off the monsters. Most of the effects that remain have saves every round or are actually just damage (attribute or HP) with a rider if you hit 0.
Also, with a larger amount of effects causing damage (save for half) rather than suck (save for nothing), the PCs are more threatened even when their highest saves are targeted.
Cheers!
Landon
My personal House Rule for those:
You get Max Dice on Lv1 (obvious).
You Roll for each new level, but you aren't allowed to repeat results until you got them all, you round them UP.
Example:
Lv1 D6 Char = 6 HP
Lv2 he rolls 1d6, if its 6 (no repetition allowed) it gets rounded "UP" (but you can't round it up, so it becomes a 5. Char now have Lv2 and 11 HP (6+5).
Lv3 he rolls a 2. Bad luck. Now he has 13 HP (6+5+2).
Lv4 he rolls a 2 again, well, you got that result already, gets rounded to 3, he has 16 HP (6+5+2+3).
Lv5 he can either get a 1 or a 4, and then Lv6 he can get the one he didn't roll on Lv5.
At Lv7, he has all the results, so we start again.
This way you can keep the randomness of rolling for HP and see what you get (which I find fun) and the players end having an average life (not over buffed).
This system is mostly to keep the random HP (that I like) while balancing the characters (they don't get too much HP) and being fair between them (no Warrior with 10+10+9+9 and another with 10+1+1+1)
Am I in the minority just giving my players max-hp? Or is this thread just attracting those DMs who don't?
Am I in the minority just giving my players max-hp? Or is this thread just attracting those DMs who don't?
There are several individuals above who give maximum hit points to PCs.
For those who like to roll, you could also take a page out of AD&D's book: at certain Constitution scores, your minimum dice roll was considered 1 higher.
For example (AD&D):
20 Con: All 1s rolled for Hit Dice are automatically considered 2s.
21-22 Con: All 1s and 2s rolled for Hit Dice are automatically considered 3s.
23+ Con: All 1s, 2s, and 3s rolled for Hit Dice are automatically considered 4s.
In 3.x, I'd probably change it to match up with the altered progression, somewhat (off the cuff example, balance is NOT considered):
16-17: 1s are 2s.
18-19: 1s & 2s are 3s.
20-21: 1s, 2s, & 3s are 4s.
... and so on, result capped at hit die max.
It would reward those RARE individuals who pump their Constitutions up.
I use max HP level one. After level 1 roll normally. I allow the players to use the Ultimate Campaign training rules to raise their HP to max if they wish.
Actually, I generally encourage extensive use of the training/retraining rules as they make a level and class based system playable for me. People can know and be training in a vast array of things, but a person can only be practiced and combat effective in a limited number of things at a time.
We do re-rolls if the die is below 1/4 of its maximum. It prevents too low hp and everyone likes to roll.
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Personally I don't like avg HP because wizard's HP is barely any different from a Barbarian's. 3 extra hp per level is barely a difference.
I enjoy average hp.
I roll far too many 1's, which would result in my fighter's hp being lower than someone else's wizard.
*If your players roll "average", rolling the dice will not change the wizard's hp relative to the barbarian.
We use a half or better roll. So if you roll less than half you get half hit points.
Example d8
roll -> HP
1 -> 4
2 -> 4
3 -> 4
4 -> 4
5 -> 5
6 -> 6
7 -> 7
8 -> 8
It's worked well for us.