How do Negative Levels exactly work?


Rules Questions


Hi, people. As the title says it, I'm trying to figure out how Negative Levels are handled in Pathfinder. Back in 3.5, it was "simple" (sarcasm implied), as far as I understood it, since it meant a tedious but, more or less, understandable "level roll-back".

However, in Pathfinder it says that you simply apply cumulative penalties (ala template), and I like that a lot because it saves a lot of time, but some bits of it confuse me. The rules say the character is considered to be X levels lower for variables that consider HD in question (they put spellcasting as an example) for each Negative Level. I can understand what I read, but some questions arise from this:

1) Does this means I have to recalculate HP?
2) Does this means my skill rank limit is reduced too? And, if the answer is yes, what happens with the "surplus" ranks?
3) Does this means I loose access to class abilities gained in level X if I am treated to be X levels lower?
4) Are Saves, BAB, or something else regressed as if I was X levels lower aside of the penalty? (My guess is no, but it doesn't hurts to ask).

I know these are a lot of questions, but I wanted to make sure because I have a character that is going to be brought back with a Raise Dead spell, which inflicts 2 permanent Negative Levels, so I wanted to know how exactly to modify and/or treat his CRS. In advance, thanks, and sorry for the wall of text.


Energy Drain and Negative Levels

Nope. Pathfinder makes it very simple. Think of the PC as being slathered in whipped cream from head to toe, except the delicious whipped dessert topping(tm) is a cumulative -1 to everything listed in that link above.


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Negative Levels wrote:
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed.

Consider the -1 penalty to be what is essentially what you are asking about.

So No to all your questions.

Level Dependent variables are stuff like caster level, your dice for channel energy or lay on hands. Sneak Attack and etc.

The Exchange

PRD wrote:
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.

1) Subtract 5 from current and total hit points per negative level.

2) Ranks are not reduced but you take a -1 per level on every skill check.
3) No.
4) Somewhat. -1 per level on everything listed, and some class features are possibly affected such as a cleric's channel energy dice and DC, a bard's inspire courage bonus (but not the action to start a performance, that's not a "variable"), or a cavalier's Challenge bonus damage.

edit: double ninja'd! Don't forget that a restoration spell (the one with the 1000 gp material component) will get rid of a negative level. No more than one negative level per week. Greater restoration gets rid of all negative levels at once but costs 5000 gp in diamond dust.


1 and 2: For every negative level you take a -1 every time you roll a d20. You lose 5 points off of your current and max hit points. You may also lose access to certain spell slots depending on what your caster level drops to.

3 and 4: You do not delevel your character

Sovereign Court

Owly's answer is correct, but a bit terse. To go into more detail:

Seemos Yantra wrote:


1) Does this means I have to recalculate HP?

No, each negative level just reduces your HP by 5.

Seemos Yantra wrote:


2) Does this means my skill rank limit is reduced too? And, if the answer is yes, what happens with the "surplus" ranks?

Nope, the condition says nothing about that happening.

Seemos Yantra wrote:


3) Does this means I loose access to class abilities gained in level X if I am treated to be X levels lower?

Nope.

Seemos Yantra wrote:


4) Are Saves, BAB, or something else regressed as if I was X levels lower aside of the penalty? (My guess is no, but it doesn't hurts to ask).

Nope. Rather than have combat grind to a halt as someone calculates what their character sheet may have looked like a few levels back, the condition just assumes that a -1 penalty per negative level is more than enough.

Seemos Yantra wrote:


I know these are a lot of questions, but I wanted to make sure because I have a character that is going to be brought back with a Raise Dead spell, which inflicts 2 permanent Negative Levels, so I wanted to know how exactly to modify and/or treat his CRS. In advance, thanks, and sorry for the wall of text.

No problem. As you see, negative levels are still not something you want to have, but they're pretty easy to apply.

The Exchange

wraithstrike wrote:
You may also lose access to certain spell slots depending on what your caster level drops to.

That's specifically called out as something that does NOT happen.

PRD wrote:
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.


Belafon wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
You may also lose access to certain spell slots depending on what your caster level drops to.

That's specifically called out as something that does NOT happen.

PRD wrote:
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.

I did not now they had changed it. I remember a dev said this happened, and another poster was saying it was unfair.

Sovereign Court

Really, compared to older editions, by now energy drain is pretty much "fair" and at least easy to apply. It's still one of the scarier things that can happen, but what would the game be like with nothing to worry about?


wraithstrike wrote:
Belafon wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
You may also lose access to certain spell slots depending on what your caster level drops to.

That's specifically called out as something that does NOT happen.

PRD wrote:
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
I did not now they had changed it. I remember a dev said this happened, and another poster was saying it was unfair.

Spells and slots remain but if your new caster level isn't high enough to cast that spell, you cannot cast it.

For example: a lvl 5 wizard with prepared Fireball cannot cast it if affected by 1 or more negative levels but once the negative levels expire/are removed he can cast Fireball as if nothing happened).

Post by James to confirm that:

Link


Now if only permanent negative levels had to be removed by spells, instead of a buffed saving throw every 24 hours...


Azten wrote:
Now if only permanent negative levels had to be removed by spells, instead of a buffed saving throw every 24 hours...

That's exactly how they work though.

Only temporary negative levels get the save every 24 hours.


Raziel747 wrote:


Post by James to confirm that:

Link

And he reverses himself on page 2 of same thread.

Sovereign Court

Robert Young wrote:
Raziel747 wrote:


Post by James to confirm that:

Link

And he reverses himself on page 2 of same thread.

Also, consider the last post on the last page...


Ascalaphus wrote:


Seemos Yantra wrote:


1) Does this means I have to recalculate HP?

No, each negative level just reduces your HP by 5.

Now this makes me wonder if you had 18 hp as a 5th level character and took 4 negative levels, you'd then have an effective -2 hp?

Would you lie on the ground unconscious until you got a restore?

Sovereign Court

Yeah, the -5HP can be rough on some classes.


Ascalaphus wrote:

Also, consider the last post on the last page...

I don't know how to consider that last post, it isn't an answer to anything in the thread.


Looking at the portion of 'Level dependent variables', does that include hitdie? (Such as for the purpose of how bad that Blasphemy hits you?)

Example: Level 14 fighter eats 3 negative levels, level 14 cleric casts blasphemy.

Instead of no effect (since same HD) does the fighter now save vs the blindness/deafness?

Sovereign Court

@Robert Young: I was referring to this post at the end of that thread:

Quote:

Yeah.. this old thread is full of suppositions that I do not believe to be true. I am going to lock this one down. If folks want to discuss... start a new thread.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

So we probably shouldn't put too much faith in any rulings given in that thread. Although it seems like some of the ideas made it into the later printings of the CRB.


It's a strange post. Taking the time to lock down a thread because of false suppositions, and yet not identifying those suppositions or otherwise commenting on the content.

Sovereign Court

The prophets move in mysterious ways. :P


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
So we probably shouldn't put too much faith in any rulings given in that thread. Although it seems like some of the ideas made it into the later printings of the CRB.

If you're referring to casters, spell slots, etc, there haven't been any changes to later printings at all:

PF Beta, pg 396 wrote:
Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels.

It's all pretty much been set since then.


Majuba wrote:
PF Beta, pg 396 wrote:
Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels.
It's all pretty much been set since then.

It's clear the caster does not lose his prepared spells and slots, what isn't clear is whether he loses the ability to cast those spells and use those slots. Atleast that's the way I see it.

FAQ would really be great to resolve the whole "level dependent variables" line because there's a lot of questions and not many clear answers


Raziel747 wrote:
Majuba wrote:
PF Beta, pg 396 wrote:
Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels.
It's all pretty much been set since then.

It's clear the caster does not lose his prepared spells and slots, what isn't clear is whether he loses the ability to cast those spells and use those slots. Atleast that's the way I see it.

FAQ would really be great to resolve the whole "level dependent variables" line because there's a lot of questions and not many clear answers

When I referenced "losing slots" earlier I knew the slots did not really go away because you do not actually delevel your character like you do in 3.5.

In the other thread I was referring to losing access to the slots. From what I understand you need to be level X to use ____ slot. When you take a negative level you are no longer caster level X so the access should be lost.

This particular question deserves an FAQ in case the devs want to say that you don't actually lose a caster level, but only take a penalty to the die roll on any caster level checks, which would make a difference with regard to spell access.

Sovereign Court

When I said "appears to have changed", I was referring to the current text on the page mentioned in that thread. In the thread it was proposed to allow casting spells at a lower level - like a low-intensity fireball to fry skeletons, not party members.

Nowadays, it's:

Quote:

Caster Level

A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

There's no explicit rule saying your caster level needs to be at least X to cast a level Y spell. The second paragraph has something that looks like that, but only in the case when you want to cast a spell at a lower than normal level.

So it seems that as long as you still have the spell slots and high enough casting stat, you can still cast high-level spells even while enjoying negative levels.

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