| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This conversion is less ambitious than originally planned. I decided to leave as many of the class features as originally written as I could. The changes include:
-Sneak Attack now includes a level based attack bonus. I devised this as a feat a couple of years ago, then saw it included in someone else's conversion and thought that was an even better idea.
-Trapfinding and Trap Sense have been rolled together and expanded to include ambushes and surprise rounds.
-Cunning is a limited use feature to avoid failure due to a crappy roll.
-Ambush is a feature that to improve performance in surprise rounds.
***Here it is!***
|
This is good.
I would suggest Cunning improving over time in quality as well as quantity. And, I think using the Bard's Lore Master and Jack-of-all-trades as a comparative baseline is a good start.
One potential difficulty with that is that it seems the rogue can use the Cunning for any roll. Which, against a foe who is Dx-denied or flanked, likely an automatic success. That said, being able to 'take 20 1/day' on a skill check is leagues apart from being able to do the same on an attack roll (or even a saving throw) - making scaling the ability tricky. assuming you don't divorce the types of checks under the Cunning umbrella, how about:
Improved Cunning
At 7th level, when the rogue uses her Cunning ability, she may instead roll twice for the check and take the better result. If using this ability on an attack roll that threatens a critical hit, she must use the other roll to confirm.
Great Cunning
At 13th level, when the rogue uses her Cunning ability, she may instead roll thrice for the check and take the better result. If using this ability on an attack roll that threatens a critical hit, she must use one of the other rolls to confirm.
True Cunning
At 19th level, when the rogue uses her Cunning ability, she may continue to use it for every check she has to make that round. Doing so only counts against one use of her ability for that day. She may activate this use of Cunning as an immediate action.
cheers.
(ps. why is this not in homebrew?)
The premise of Cunning is that this character always has a trick up his sleeve that can be pulled revealed at the last second (with limits of course), as if the character had it planned all along even if the player did not. So, thats the thematic part.
I just looked up the two class features you mentioned. I haven't played a PF bard yet, so have never looked that closely at them. I'd like to avoid a free "take 20" at all costs. Being able to turn a 10 into a success still requires a bit of cunning on the player's part, in choosing when to use it and when not. Sometimes a 10 is still not enough. Usually I like picking ideas or wording from existing class features, but I'm unsure how I would infuse one of these in here.
Do you think that an after-the-fact pretend-I-rolled-a-10 is better than rolling twice, or do you look at is as 6 of 1, half dozen of the other? I think you're right that I should include some kind of limitation, like you did for crits, but I do like the short and sweet nature of the way I wrote it.
Why not in homebrew? I dunno, conversions made sense until you pointed it out. :)
|
|
another piece of feedback, i would leave sneak attack untouched, identical to CRB, because other classes can 'take' it. if you want rogue to get more bang for the buck, consider increasing interactivity with other class features.
Do you think that an after-the-fact pretend-I-rolled-a-10 is better than rolling twice, or do you look at is as 6 of 1, half dozen of the other? I think you're right that I should include some kind of limitation, like you did for crits, but I do like the short and sweet nature of the way I wrote it.
the 'crit limitation' is pulled straight from a monk archetype that allows best-of-2 attack rolls (Perfect Strike, i think).
anyhow, there are a hundred and one ways to grant power over the dice, and, thinking again maybe a better way to do the 'trick up sleeve' theme is to simply grant a re-roll, because while it doesn't eliminate risk, the prospect for reward is even greater. there is something totally thematic about a rogue going 'all in' - and my previous suggestions, as well as how you have written the ability originally, fails to capture that. consider:
Cunning (Ex):
Once per day, a rogue may immediately re-roll an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw, before knowing the results of the first roll. She is, however, bound to the results of the re-roll. At 3rd level, and again every three rogue levels, the rogue gains an additional use of this ability, to a maximum of 7 times per day at 18th level.
At 4th level, she gains a +1 luck bonus to her re-roll when using this ability. This bonus increases by +1 every four rogue levels attained, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
...
How 'bout...
Cunning (Ex): A rogue always has a trick up her sleeve. Once per day when she makes a check, she can roll a second d20 and use the more favorable result. The decision to use this ability must be made before the result of the roll is announced. At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter, she can use this ability one additional time per day, but no more than once per round. She gains a +1 competence bonus to the more favorable result for every three rogue levels she has.
|
Ambush (Ex)
I am wondering about the Ambush ability. I get that if a Rogue successfully surprises a foe, the ability grants him a normal round instead of a surprise round...but it also appears that if a Rogue successfully perceives an ambush, the Rogue gains a normal round in that case while the attacker only gains a surprise round.
I think I would specifically limit the ability to times when the Rogue is trying to surprise an enemy.
Cunning
This is an interesting add-on for a skill-based class. I don't know if it is necessary and it could make the Rogue a little too powerful in the skills area. Also, how would this interact with talents that also grant skill rerolls (Peerless Maneuver, Thoughtful Reexamining, etc).
If you decide to keep it, I would suggest limiting the skills that can be rerolled to Dexterity and Strength based skills. It does not feel right to allow this skill for things like knowledge checks, spellcraft, or UMD.
.
.
My own opinion is that the rogue could receive a reasonable boost if the rogue talents were a tad more powerful...but revamping and rebalancing them would also be a daunting task.
Anyway, good luck with your Rogue rule set.
|
|
the cool thing about deciding after you roll, rather than deciding before you roll, is that it taxes the number of times you will use the ability per day much less. because, you only use it when you need, rather than when you think you need it.
so, if this is to be a robust class feature, comparable to smite, rage, performance, etc, having it be 'second chance' roll - a powerful mechanic indeed - is counterbalanced by the fact that it only works with a single check.
consider this:
Cunning (version 4):
Through a combination of force of will and sheer pluck, the rogue has the extraordinary knack for snatching victory from defeat. Once per day, a rogue may immediately re-roll an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw, adding her Intelligence bonus (if any) as a luck bonus to the re-roll. She is bound to this second result. At 3rd level, and again every three rogue levels, the rogue gains an additional use of this ability, to a maximum of 7 times per day at 18th level.
RedDogMT,
because the rogue is a bad ass! if somebody gets the drop on her, it's because his Stealth (or Bluff, Disguise, etc) exceeded her Perception (or Sense Motive, etc), and she does not get to act in the surprise round at all. besides, compare the number of times the PCs actually lure the NPCs into an 'ambush' - and vice versa. we want the rogue to be able to actually use the class feature, no?
|
|
(sorry to threadjack)
or!
Cunning (v5):
Once per day, after rolling an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw, the rogue may immediately either re-roll the check or add her Intelligence bonus (if any) to it. She may not do both, and is bound to this altered result. At 3rd level, and again every three rogue levels, the rogue gains an additional use of this ability, to a maximum of 7 times per day at 18th level.
btw i love this mechanic!
I know cunning is suggestive of intelligence, but I'd like to not tie an ability score to it. Minotaurs are cunning too aren't they? :)
I think my rewrite will essentially be your last version, minus the int part. I'm glad you like it. I've been holding off on tackling the rogue until I had something new to offer.
The rogue is simultaneously a favorite class and the one least loved. There are so many opinions about it. So many people have though about rogues and demanded fixes, and many of the fixes have been similar. I couldn't possibly do a better job than every one of the 100 that came before me. I wanted to offer something new.
Just to toss in my two cents, we gave Rogues full BAB and Improved Evasion at 11th level. The change was minor but worked very well and we've never looked back.
|
|
Ciaran,
to answer your question from the other thread: i am in the middle of a lot of downtime between when i am going to be a dm next - currently playing a rogue in a thrilling campaign once a month and having a blast - and i dont expect less than a year to pass before i put that hat back on for sure. thus, teasing out a hundred ideas on these forums is not only an entertaining pastime, but also a useful brainstorming session. naturally, the kind of people (you and me included) who post up regularly are of a certain kind. so, suffice it to say the opinions expressed on these forums are not entirely representative of how gamers think in general. never-the-less i value greatly the community's input - ESPECIALLY folks like you who take the time to engage in thoughtful and substantive criticism. that is the first thank you.
the second thank you is related to this thread in particular and answers your question directly. long story short, for the past year or so, i have been entirely convinced in the necessity of the rogue (as with the ninja) to get a 'pool' mechanic, evidenced in the threads i have created concerning what such a pool ought to do. but. your iteration of the rogue, above, has convinced me otherwise. in short, i am really inspired by your Cunning mechanic, as i was once inspired by the Guile Pool mechanic from Rogue Glory. so, i may be assembling another 'zax rogue' soon. i just have to finalize some organized thinking around it before i post it up.
that said, though i don't agree with everything he says, one poster more or less sums up the rogue's shortcomings here. i think your Cunning mechanic idea, modified by my version 5 contribution above, goes a long way towards attending to those issues in a very thematic way. if you are asking 'why is INT so important?' - i would love to discuss here why i think INT is essential to having the Cunning mechanic deliver.
cheers mate.
Similar to you, I have been on a 7 month creation spree, due largely to my group of the previous decade calling it quits. The choice was out of my hands. In lieu of actual game play, and because I am old enough now that putting together a new group seems like a daunting task. Scheduling a weekly event with other other adults who have kids and jobs is tricky too. I'm saying that I am experiencing a parallel to your situation, due to lack of creative output. (This is made worse by playing in bands for 20 years, and then not being in one for the last year and a half) Self pity rant complete. :)
Regarding the intelligence of cunning rogues...
Incorporating Intelligence in the manner you use in v5 is perfectly fine. However, I can imagine - as easily as you could - a rogue whose cunning might come from observation (wisdom) or expression (charisma), just to name the first two examples that come to mind. However, I generally don't like class features (usually home brew) that read something to the effect of "choose an ability score", and I don't want to "force" a player into boosting a specific ability score. There are enough of those classes, some of mine included. To be fair, I'm sure I have seen cases where "choose an ability score" seemed to work out. But for my own effort, this time around, I shall exclude specific ability scores.
Oh, if you were referring to Lemmy, then I wanted to add that I like some of the changes of his rewrite, and found it funny that he granted Shadow Strike at 5th level, considering I put Ambush at 5th level as well!
The Level-based BAB for Sneak Attack is wonderful. That alone is good enough to me. Adding it to my games.
All classes have a level-based BAB. :)
|
|
it's easy enough to allow a WIS or CHA option. really any of the three stats could be considered 'cunning' in theme.
i like INT for two reasons.
consider: have you ever aided a character in-game and your +2 didn't really make a difference? OR. have you ever done so and it made precisely the difference?
being able to add to a roll (say +2) after the fact is very powerful indeed. It is nearly the same as adding +2 to all rolls - because most of the time those rolls would have succeeded/failed anyway. it's the near-miss/barely-hit threshold that this mechanic lifts - and how many rolls are at this threshold for a given game? i would say a few to a handful. So, in a way, a Cunning Rogue adds her INT to every dice roll she makes, de facto.
and INT has yet to be added to saving throws. In fact, Cunning is therefore much like the Paladin's Divine Grace, but in a way that is thematic for the Rogue. Because her luck can run out.
what more, that being the case, INT to saves (and attacks/skills etc) will allow Rogue to concentrate less on CON/WIS (because she can boost key saves in a pinch), and synergize instead with additional skill points and Master Strike (even if no one cares about capstones...)
Feat or rogue talent maybe? Both?
Improved Cunning
The most cunning warriors know their their weaknesses and build strength around them.
Prerequisite: Cunning class feature
Benefit: Choose Charisma, Intelligence, or Wisdom. Once made, the choice cannot be changed. When you use Cunning to roll another d20, you can add that ability score's bonus to the second roll.
|
|
if you still check here, curious your inputs first:
The Cunning Rogue
01 - Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Cunning 1/day
02 - Rogue Talents, Ambush, Evasion
03 - Skill Execution, Trap Sense, Cunning 2/day
04 - Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
05 - Exploitation
06 - Rogue Talent, Improved Evasion
07 - Cunning 3/day
08 - Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
09 - Exploitation
10 - Advanced Talents, Rogue Talent
11 - Cunning 4/day
12 - Rogue Talent
13 - Exploitation
14 - Rogue Talent
15 - Cunning 5/day
16 - Rogue Talent
17 - Exploitation
18 - Rogue Talent
19 - Cunning 6/day
20 - Rogue Talent, Master Strike
What is Unchanged
Base Statistics (HD, BAB, Saves, Skills, Proficiency)
Sneak Attack
Uncanny Dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Master Strike
Old Features Modified
Trapfinding - bonus now applies to all Perception checks
Rogue Talents - may trade out 2 sneak attack dice (minimum +1d6) to stack strike talents
Evasion - may ante 1 cunning as immediate action to move base speed out of area of effect
Trap Sense - bonus now +1 every two rogue levels
Improved Evasion - at DM option may trade out for another advanced talent (one-time early boon)
Advanced Talents - expend 1 cunning as swift action to gain basic strike talent for 1 round
New Class Features
Cunning (Ex):
Rogues live on the edge, surviving by a combinations of uncanny instinct, quick wits, and sheer luck. Once per day, after rolling an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw, the rogue may immediately either re-roll it or add in her Intelligence bonus (if any). She may not do both, and is bound to this altered result. At 3rd level, and again every four rogue levels, the rogue gains an additional use of this ability, to a maximum of 6 times per day at 19th level.
At 10th level, a rogue may instead use this ability to force an opponent's attack roll, skill check, or saving throw to be rolled twice with the lowest result taken. This is an immediate action, and may only be used on rolls which are directly opposed by the rogue herself. If her opponent is also using cunning, the effects cancel each other out, and the original roll is kept unmodified.
As an optional rule, a 1st level rogue may choose another mental ability score (Wisdom or Charisma) to govern this ability, instead of Intelligence. Once this choice is made it cannot be altered.
Rogue Talents (Ex):
Mostly every talent revised. See list here: (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q96p?Rogue-Talents)
Ambush (Ex):
Rogues becomes adept at setting up and responding to well-executed surprise attacks. A 2nd level rogue may ignore less than total concealment caused by darkness, fog, or smoke out to her point blank range (normally 30 feet). Additionally, if she is able to act during a surprise round, she may act as if it were a normal full round, instead of being restricted to a standard action. Finally, she gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Skill Execution (Ex):
Rogues are cool under pressure. A 3rd level rogue may always choose to take 10 with skills for which she has invested maximum ranks, regardless of distractions. Further, beginning at 3rd level, for every rogue level she gains, she may choose any skill to hereafter treat as a class skill.
As an optional rule, when the rogue is using her cunning ability to re-roll a skill check with one of these skills, if the re-roll results in a success, she does not expend a daily use of that ability.
Exploitation (Ex):
Rogues brutally exploit vulnerability. A 5th level rogue chooses an exploitation below. To use it, the rogue must first target her foe as a free action. She may do this even if it's not her turn, but never against the same enemy twice until 24 hours have passed (1/foe/day). Within 1 round of doing so, the rogue may apply her sneak attack dice to the next damage roll she makes against her target (if she hasn't already). At 9th level and again every four rogue levels, the rogue chooses another exploitation:
Exploit Concentration - You exploit your foe as part of a readied action while he is casting a spell.
Exploit Confusion - You exploit a foe who is confused, fascinated, or under a compulsion effect.
Exploit Critical Hit - You exploit a foe whom you have confirmed a critical hit against.
Exploit Escape - You exploit a foe whose grapple you have broken.
Exploit Fatigue - You exploit a foe who is exhausted or fatigued.
Exploit Fear - You exploit a foe who is cowering, frightened, panicked, or shaken.
Exploit Opportunity - You exploit your foe as part of your next attack of opportunity.
Exploit Pain - You exploit a foe who is under a bleed or pain effect.
Exploit Prone - You exploit a foe who is prone.
Exploit Nausea - You exploit a foe who is nauseated or sickened.
Exploit Restrained Movement - You exploit a foe who is entangled, grappled, pinned, or whose base speed is impeded.
Exploit Sensory Deprivation - You exploit a foe who is blinded, dazzled, deafened, or whose primary sense is impeded.
Exploit Shock - You exploit a foe who is dazed, disabled, staggered, or stunned.
Exploit Withdraw - You exploit your foe as part of a readied action while he is using the withdraw action.