My character is a fighter with 14 Int that will be taking Master Craftsman at 5th, Craft Magical Arms and Armor at 7th, and Craft Wondrous Item at 9th to play into his backstory. This is not to cheese to get above the WBL 'though it would be nice for the feats to pay off a bit since it's 3 feats I'm not getting back. I looked around the forums for similar questions and found some answers, but I wasn't quite sure about these.
Magic Item Creation rules say Rules wrote: Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
The Skill bonus (competence) formula is Bonus squared × 100 gp.
Question 1) Would an item that increases item creation skills (Craft (Weapon), Craft (Armor), Spellcraft) use the "similar abilities" equation or the "different abilities" equation? Would all these even be necessary if Master Craftsman is used?
Difference for slotless item that gave +10 to each of those 3 skills:
+10 bonus = (10)^2 * 100 = 10,000.
Similar: 10000 + 10000*0.75 + 10000*0.5 = 10000 + 7500 + 5000 = 22500
Different: 10000*3 = 30000
Travelers Any-Tool is a slotless item.
Question 2) What would it cost to add the +10 skill bonuses to the Travelers Any-Tool? Or is it even allowed?
Question 3) With Master Craftsman, would I use, say, Craft (Armor) to enchant weapons and craft magic items?
This thread didn't really come to a consensus on RAW but thought RAI was only the items you had ranks for. Though it seems weird to use Craft (Armor) to make a Belt of Dexterity, Boots of Speed, or an Ioun Stone (obviously increasing the DCs for not having the spells), the wording of the Master Craftsman feat makes it seem like you use whatever skill you took Master Craftsman for for the roll. This stackexchange doesn't mention the actual skill being used, and I don't want to make a character based on one rules explanation I found that may or may not be official.
Any help on this would be nice. Never tried out item creation before.
Bump. I still haven't found the answers I'm looking for.
Honestly, I think the rules are pretty straightforward on crafting; you are required to pick a specific craft to use with Master Craftsman. This allows you to use your ranks in that craft as a caster level for items you make using that craft skill. However, it does not otherwise change the crafting rules, so if a spellcaster without master craftsman couldn't use that craft to make that item, I don't think you can either.
MHO, the feat is really bad.
If you aren't doing PFS, appeal to your GM's common sense and ask for permission to use multiple crafts with Master Craftsman, or ask them to handwave the rule in some other way. Alternatively, instead of taking Master Craftsman, take any random feat that gives an SLA and thus gives you a caster level, whereupon you qualify for the crafting feats (I think) and you actually get any useful functionality at all ever.
I'd let you count competence bonuses to crafts and professions as "similar", and I might count spellcraft that way too. I would say either you pay the double cost for a slotless item, or you get an item which only modifies those skills when it's being actively used for them, so it's effectively taking the "wielded" slot -- it prevents you from, say, using a weapon at the same time. Since these are out-of-combat skills, that's probably fine.
I mean, just from a game balance perspective: The scores you need to craft items in general are not super high, and you can take 10 on item creation according to most people, so basically it's not a huge game balance thing. If you wanna spend 22.5k being that much more sure that you can get your crafting to work, thus undermining significantly any WBL advantages from crafting... I sure wouldn't try to charge you more for it.
This is for a home game and not PFS. He's an understanding DM, so these suggestions might fly. I just wanted to know if these were rules legal, since it'd make for an even stronger case for my DM. So the suggestion is that maybe the Master Craftsman feat works on any Craft/Profession skill that you have 5+ ranks in, and possibly Spellcraft for crafting purposes. Seems reasonable enough to me.
Just a flat +3 sword at level 6 (assuming max ranks, and yes it's over 1/2 WBL but just a though exercise) would be 5 + (3*3) + 5 for not being of the required caster (ranks) level, so 19 correct? This would fly with a take 10 taking into account +2 Int and +3 trained bonuses. A +2 keen weapon would be 24 since I don't have the Keen Edge spell, too high to take 10 on. What I'm most worried about is when I want to add specific enchantments, or crafting wondrous items since often they take several spells which would be several cumulative +5's.
The SLA thing could be handy, but wouldn't really fit into my character concept and I'd probably always be below the required caster level anyway.
Thanks for the help and sorry for taking a while to respond. Didn't expect to get a quick response after waiting a day before bumping lol.
Remember, you can have other casters meet spell prerequisites, so if a party member or friendly wizard is around, you can remove some of those penalties. Also, the crafting skill you use does not have to directly relate to making the item, as that is not part of the rules for master craftsmen. So if you have craft(weaponsmithing) you can still make wonderous items and magic armor without penalty. The clause:You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item, just means that if you end up with a crafting skill with a higher bonus for some reason you cannot substitute it, you have to use the skill originally chosen. Not that you must craft the base item with the skill.
Ya, that's how I was reading the skill too. I would still like to hand craft the base weapon/armor for thematic reasons, but not needing spellcraft would be nice and only needing one bonus to a skill is cheaper.
The spellcasters in my group would be a sorcerer, a summoner, and a healer "domain" witch. So I'd only have access to arcane spells and asking spontaneous casters to take a spell like Keen Edge and use up a spell slot each day from them while adventuring is a bit rude to those players. The witch player just started playing Pathfinder about two weeks ago so it would make it even more complicated for her. Then again, most crafting is done while you're not adventuring, but it would still run into the problem of not having the spell unless I bought/found the required spell for the witch to "put into her spellbook".
Also, would the + to competence bonus be able to be applied to the Any-Tool? I remember reading somewhere that you couldn't modify specific magic items like Celestial Armor, but I didn't know if it applied in this case.
Calth wrote: Also, the crafting skill you use does not have to directly relate to making the item, as that is not part of the rules for master craftsmen. So if you have craft(weaponsmithing) you can still make wonderous items and magic armor without penalty. The clause:You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item, just means that if you end up with a crafting skill with a higher bonus for some reason you cannot substitute it, you have to use the skill originally chosen. Not that you must craft the base item with the skill. Only with twisting the words of the feat can you do that. If you want to craft magic armour you need Craft(Armour). If you want to craft a wondrous item you need an appropriate Craft skill.
People on the boards argue otherwise though......
I can understand that interpretation Gallo, but what would be the use of the feat when combined with Craft Wondrous Item if it's so narrow? Can you only make stat belts if you have Profession (Leatherworking)? Or only cloaks/robes if you have Profession (Clothspinning)? I think the idea of Master Craftsman was to say, "You're really good at crafting items, you can use your skill to apply to more than one set of items." It's all up to the DM though since there's no official clarification (that I'm aware of).
Dimminsy wrote: I can understand that interpretation Gallo, but what would be the use of the feat when combined with Craft Wondrous Item if it's so narrow? Can you only make stat belts if you have Profession (Leatherworking)? Or only cloaks/robes if you have Profession (Clothspinning)? I think the idea of Master Craftsman was to say, "You're really good at crafting items, you can use your skill to apply to more than one set of items." It's all up to the DM though since there's no official clarification (that I'm aware of). I think that explanation makes more sense than one that would allow someone who is really good at making magical armour being somehow able to use those same skills to make a magical cloak.
Personally I could not see anyone taking Master Craftsmen for anything other than making armour and weapons.
I was talking more from a balance PoV than a logically make sense PoV. Casters can take any crafting feat they have the levels for, martials can take a max of two with one feat already invested. Flavor it as "your battle knowledge and skill imbues materials worked with your hands with magical properties" or some such. They already suffer the penalties from not having the spells to craft the items. This is coming from a guy that, up until this point, always played a character with caster levels. We're both debating using our individual senses of "what's fair", so we're probably not going to convince the other. Logically, yes, limit it to only Magical Arms and Armor, but as is there's the Wondrous Items to worry about, too.
Dimminsy wrote: I can understand that interpretation Gallo, but what would be the use of the feat when combined with Craft Wondrous Item if it's so narrow? Can you only make stat belts if you have Profession (Leatherworking)? Or only cloaks/robes if you have Profession (Clothspinning)? I think the idea of Master Craftsman was to say, "You're really good at crafting items, you can use your skill to apply to more than one set of items." It's all up to the DM though since there's no official clarification (that I'm aware of). I am quite sure that's not the intent, because there's plenty of ways they could have said that. If they'd said you can craft any item using that skill, that would be giving you permission. A thing that says you must use a particular skill is necessarily restricting you. It has to have the implication that this is in some way limiting your options, and using your best skill would never be a bad choice... Unless, say, that didn't do anything to change the item creation rules. Which allow craft skills only when those skills are appropriate to the item.
This is why I say that, as-written, the feat is really bad. It's not so bad if you did craft (weapons) or craft (armor), but for wondrous items, good luck; there's very few skills that can make more than a handful of items, although jewelry does pretty well for necklaces and headbands.
Dimminsy wrote: I can understand that interpretation Gallo, but what would be the use of the feat when combined with Craft Wondrous Item if it's so narrow? Can you only make stat belts if you have Profession (Leatherworking)? Or only cloaks/robes if you have Profession (Clothspinning)? I think the idea of Master Craftsman was to say, "You're really good at crafting items, you can use your skill to apply to more than one set of items." It's all up to the DM though since there's no official clarification (that I'm aware of). I honestly don't see a point in Master Craftsman with anything but arms and armor, for just this reason. To me, the idea is that you are SOO good at making weapons, that you can even make magical ones. Or SOO good at making armor, you can make magical armor. I don't see how being a jack of all trades would make you specialized enough to enchant your works in all your crafts. I would, perhaps, allow taking the feat a second time to use with multiple craft skills, but really I don't see that really happening. I currently have a crafting heavy character (Soul Forger Magus, so I don't need Master Craftsman), and he is primarily focused on weapons. He DOES have respectable Craft (armor) skills, but I don't see him really using them as much for enchantment as his primary craft.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
- Pretty certain you can only make magical items related to the craft skills you've invested in.
- PFS doesn't allow for item crafting.
- Those formulas the OP is quoting are guidelines ONLY, and the homebrew must be compared to existing items to determine true value. The GM is the final arbiter.
I think it'd make more sense if Master Craftsman applied to any skill you had 5 or more ranks in since Craft Wondrous Item is on the list and Master Craftsman doesn't say you can take it multiple times. Maybe only one of the skills you get the +2 in though?
I know the DM has to be the final arbiter, but would that be a fair "RAW" price for the item if it's added to the Travelers Any-Tool? Or would it be (10,000)*1.5 * 3 times since they're all new abilities being added to the tool? I just want to know what RAW says before we modify the price if at all.
Dimminsy wrote: My character is a fighter with 14 Int that will be taking Master Craftsman at 5th, Craft Magical Arms and Armor at 7th, and Craft Wondrous Item at 9th to play into his backstory. This is not to cheese to get above the WBL 'though it would be nice for the feats to pay off a bit since it's 3 feats I'm not getting back. I looked around the forums for similar questions and found some answers, but I wasn't quite sure about these.
Magic Item Creation rules say Rules wrote: Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
The Skill bonus (competence) formula is Bonus squared × 100 gp.
Question 1) Would an item that increases item creation skills (Craft (Weapon), Craft (Armor), Spellcraft) use the "similar abilities" equation or the "different abilities" equation? Would all these even be necessary if Master Craftsman is used?
Difference for slotless item that gave +10 to each of those 3 skills:
+10 bonus = (10)^2 * 100 = 10,000.
Similar: 10000 + 10000*0.75 + 10000*0.5 = 10000 + 7500 + 5000 = 22500
Different: 10000*3 = 30000
Travelers Any-Tool is a slotless item.
The Circlet of Persuasion at 4,500 works out to (bonus 3)*(bonus 3)*500. If you count the number of listed skills affected, you get 7 (Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device). At multiple similar, this would be 3*3*4.25*100. Under 3.5, there were 8, and the formula used 4.75 (+Gather Information) rather than 4.25. Round up to 5, and you have the exact price of the circlet (in both editions). Note also, this gives the bonus in all Performance checks, so if you want to use multiple Perform skills, the the number 7 changes to a higher number.
The price like a similar item (circlet) indicates the multiple similar abilities as the likely price.
Dimminsy wrote: Question 2) What would it cost to add the +10 skill bonuses to the Travelers Any-Tool? Or is it even allowed? Any-Tool: 250 [+2 circumstance bonus if no masterwork tool already defined]
+10 (competence) craft #1: 10,000 * 1.5 = 15,000
+10 (competence) craft #2: 10,000 * 1.5 * 0.75 = 11,250
+10 (competence) spellcraft: 10,000 * 1.5 * 0.5 = 7,500
Total = 34,000
This is not what you want to do.
When you are magic crafting, you are not likely adventuring, so you can use any magic item slot to hold the skill boosters. Gloves are a great choice, as they do not affect stats, usually. Vests, and necklaces also. Try this instead:
Gloves of Craft(Weapon) +10 (competence) for 10,000
Vest of Craft(Armor) +10 (competence) for 10,000
Goggles of Spellcraft +10 (competence) for 10,000
Total = 30,000
Further refinement: The only thing that can help you craft magic items easier is a bonus to the craft selected for the feat. Other crafts make stuff better but do not affect enchanting. Spellcraft will not help you enchanting, as the feat does not give you that option. Mundane crafting takes so long, you are seriously not adventuring.
Gloves of Craft(Skill) +10 (competence) for 10,000
Total = 10,000
An item that granted Crafter's Fortune 1/day costs 400. This gives +5 (luck) on all craft skills, but can be dispelled. It does last a day at 1st level.
Note that Spellcraft is NOT affected by the spell.
Dimminsy wrote: Question 3) With Master Craftsman, would I use, say, Craft (Armor) to enchant weapons and craft magic items?
[utl=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jy0j?Master-Craftsman-Clarification]This thread[/url] didn't really come to a consensus on RAW but thought RAI was only the items you had ranks for. Though it seems weird to use Craft (Armor) to make a Belt of Dexterity, Boots of Speed, or an Ioun Stone (obviously increasing the DCs for not having the spells), the wording of the Master Craftsman feat makes it seem like you use whatever skill you took Master Craftsman for for the roll. This stackexchange doesn't mention the actual skill being used, and I don't want to make a character based on one rules explanation I found that may or may not be official.
Any help on this would be nice. Never tried out item creation before.
If you have Master Craftsman [Craft(Armor)], then you use Craft(Armor) for the DC check.
Master Craftsman [Craft(Skill)] implies this:
- CL = #ranks in Craft(Skill) [not skill modifier, but actual ranks; bonuses do not help]
- Craft(Skill)'s modifier is used for making the DC, not craft(other skill) or spellcraft.
The first is important for meeting CL requirements, like the 3*bonus for armor/weapons.
The latter is a measure of your awesomeness. Not of you ability to make a pretty/tough/whatever object. Exactly the same as a spellcaster can use Spellcraft. That spellcaster needs NO crafting ability whatsoever and they can STILL make stuff. The Master Craftsman, can at least know something about crafting in general because they know a lot about one specific type.
/cevah
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