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Level: Fighter (Brawler) 1
Height: 6’2”, Weight: 200 lbs, Eyes: steel grey, Skin: tanned and scarred, Hair: long black
Speed 30 feet
Base Attack Bonus +1
CMB +3, CMD 16
Save Vs: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +2
Armour Class 21 = 10 + Dexterity +3, Armour +6, Shield +2
Flat-footed 18, Touch 13
Hit Points: 18 [1d10 +2 Constitution +6 Tribal Scars]
Attacks:
Spiked Heavy Shield – Attack +3 [1d6+2 piercing damage]
Cestus – Attack +3 [1d4+2 bludgeoning or piercing damage, critical 19/20]
Sap – Attack +3 [1d6+2 nonlethal bludgeoning damage]
Abilities:
Str 14 [+2] Dex 16 [+3] Con 14 [+2] Int 12 [+1] Wis 12 [+1] Cha 7 [-2]
Racial Traits:
Medium
Normal Speed
Bonus Feat
Heart of the Wilderness (a racial bonus equal to half his character level on Survival checks, +5 racial bonus on Constitution checks to stabilize when dying and adds half his character level to his Constitution score when determining the negative hit point total necessary to kill him)
Favoured Class Bonus:
Fighter (Orc): +2 to Constitution score for the purposes of determining when he dies from negative hit points
Traits:
Bruising Intellect (Social): Uses Intelligence modifier instead of Charisma modifier on Intimidate checks
[Reserved for campaign trait]
Class Features:
Bonus Feat
Feats:
Simple Weapons Proficiency
Martial Weapons Proficiency
Armour Proficiency (light)
Armour Proficiency (medium)
Armour Proficiency (heavy)
Shield Proficiency
Tower Shield Proficiency
Racial Heritage (Orc)
Tribal Scars (Slothjaw) [Human Bonus Feat] (+6 HP, +1 Will Saves, +2 Handle Animal checks)
Improved Shield Bash [Fighter Bonus Feat]
Skills:
Intimidate +5 (= +1 rank +3 class +1 Int [Bruising Intellect trait])
Handle Animal +4 (=+1 rank +3 class -2 Cha +2 Tribal Scars)
Survival +5 (= +1 rank +3 class, +1 Wis)
Languages:
Common, Hallit
Possessions:
Explorer’s Outfit (free)
Spiked Heavy Wooden Shield (17gp) (ACP -2)
Steel Lamellar Armour (150gp) (ACP -5)
Cestus (5gp)
Sap (1gp)
Bedroll (1sp)
Canvas – square yard (1sp)
Fishhook (1sp)
Flint and steel (1gp)
Lamp (1sp)
Oil – 1 pint flask (1sp)
Sacks x3 (3sp)
Torches x5 (5cp)
Twine – 50ft (1cp)
1 silver piece, 4 copper pieces
Suggested Future Direction:
Level 2: Power Attack B
Level 3: Endurance
Level 4: +1 Con (15), Weapon Focus (Heavy Spiked Shield) B
Level 5: Diehard
Level 6: Deathless Initiate B
Level 7: Ironhide
Level 8: +1 Con (16), Weapon Specialization (Heavy Spiked Shield) B
Level 9: Deathless Master
Level 10: Greater Weapon Focus (Heavy Spiked Shield) B
Level 11: Toughness
Level 12: +1 Con (17), Greater Weapon Specialization (Heavy Spiked Shield) B
Level 13: Deathless Zealot
Level 14: Two-Weapon Fighting B
Level 15: Shield Slam
Level 16: +1 Con (18), Shield Master B
Level 17: Double Slice
Level 18: Dodge B
Level 19: Shield Focus
Level 20: +1 Con (19), Greater Shield Focus B
The basic concept here is a human with the Heart of the Wilderness alternate race trait also taking the Racial Heritage (Orc) Feat to access the Orc Fighter favoured class bonus (+2 to Constitution score for the purposes of determining when he dies from negative hit points) and the Deathless Feat chain. By level 20 he’ll need to be reduced to a whopping 50 points more than his Con score below negative before he even slows down. By level 20 (without adding any magic) he should be on around 220 hit points (114 from hit dice, 6 from Tribal Scars, 20 from Toughness and 80 from a +4 Con bonus). Assuming a +5 inherent and +6 enhancement bonus to Con by that point, he’d have Con 30, so an extra 120 hit points on top of that, for 340 total (420 points of damage to stop him).
To make this worthwhile (instead of just going with a half-orc barbarian with the Deathless Feat chain or something) he’s a Brawler archetype shield-user. This helps keep his AC reasonable as he levels (via the usual four items: magic armour, magic shield, ring of protection, and amulet of natural armour), helped by his Menacing Stance class feature, and the superiority of the Close Combatant class feature over regular Weapon Training helps a little in mitigating his need to focus on Con over Str. Eventually he gets into the whole Shield Slam shtick, which synergises well with his Close Control class feature, and the Stand Still class feature helps him lock down enemies (even though that’s not his primary focus). He relies on his AC / Hit Points / Menacing Stance to help him soak AoO, so he never picks up Improved Bull Rush or the like. His basic attack would be two-handing his spiked shield with Power Attack (at least until he gets into the TWF stuff at his highest levels), although wearing a cestus and carrying a sap (both in the Close weapon group covered by his Close Combatant class feature) give him plenty of options (along with just attempting combat maneuvers and hoping he shrugs off the AoO he triggers).
Problems seem to be a low damage potential (not being Str focused, and not being TWF focused – just dipping a proverbial toe into that pool later on) and completely ignoring Critical Feats.
His level 1 build mitigates his dumped Cha a little by investing in Intimidate and Handle Animal. Clearly he’d expand his skill selection as he levelled to round him out. His starting gear is meant to reflect the sort of stuff a guy from the Realm of the Mammoth Lords may arrive in town with; he lacks for a ranged weapon, but can always chuck rocks or something until he kills someone carrying a dagger or bow... His reserved campaign trait would go on whatever seemed appropriate, or something to bump his Will save by +1. Being a hard-to-kill northern tribal guy with a bruising intellect, I see him being played a bit like (original book version) Conan, personality-wise. Oh, he's based on a 15 point 'standard fantasy' Ability Score buy.
So... thoughts? A viable build? Anything obvious I’m missing here?
Thanks in advance!
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Cool! That is a ton of HP for a non-Barbarian.
I think you are right about having an issue with damage potential.
Brawler is not capable of dealing the insane amounts of damage other archetypes can. But in one of my home groups, the Brawler does quite well as the front-line melee guy. He's Str focused though.
The ability to spontaneously pick a combat feat is really nice.
Maybe you switch to a different archetype?
Check out the Ferocious Resolve and Tenacious Survivor Half-Orc feats in the ARG. Those would make this type of character nearly unstoppable. Keep fighting normally when dropped below zero HP and then have your spirit linger for a while even once you get dropped to your negative HP limit. Un-killable.
Antagonize might work well too, especially if you're worried about not being able to hold the attention of enemies due to lower damage output. If you dumped Cha, Intimidating Prowess could help here.
This character might work out better as a Two-Handed Fighter or an Unbreakable Fighter. There are some decent threads on these boards discussing how to make those two work well that you can find pretty easily.
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I looked at a bunch of different archetypes for this guy, but most came up short in one regard or another. Unbreakable has nothing which equates with Weapon Training, so is even more of a tank-without-teeth (great for one-level Fighter dips though). Two-handed fighter is great, but lacking a shield ruins his AC, which (amongst other things) makes the Deathless Zealot Feat a lot less appealing (at level 13 this guy should have, with the basic 25% WBL in defense, around 33-35 AC: not 'AC tank' levels, but enough to make forcing those confirmation re-rolls on opponents' critical threats pretty darn useful). Shield Fighter is great for a pure AC build with Combat Expertise, but the Shield Fighter class feature only amounts to a +4 to attack and damage with shield attacks, whereas Close Combatant grants an eventual +5 to attack and +7 to damage (and comes online earlier too).
I was thinking that he'd need to go with a decent magic weapon to make up the damage, and shield spikes are one of the few weapons I can get my head round visualising layering flaming, frost, and shock onto. He could have something like +1 flaming, frost, shock shield spikes by around level 13 (where Deathless Zealot kicks in). With a +2 Belt of Physical Perfection he should have by then, that'd be doing 4d6 +4 (two-handed Str bonus) +12 (two-handed Power Attack) +5 (Close Combatant) +4 (Greater Weapon Specialization) = 4d6+25 per attack... but only the basic 3 iterative attacks, and that drops to 1d6+25 against opponents with reasonable energy resistances. Any vanilla two-handed or two-weapon Fighter is going to blow that away, but is it good enough (along with the copious use of combat maneuvers) to keep the enemy's attention?
Without the orc ferocity racial trait he'd not qualify for Ferocious Resolve, but Tenacious Survivor looks excellent: great tip, thanks! Now just where to fit the darned thing in... Most of his early Feat slots are devoted to the Fighter basics and the Deathless Feat chain, but I guess anywhere from level 14 onwards, bumping the other stuff up (and Greater Shield Focus off the list: +1 AC is always nice, but it's just icing at that level). Oh, for just a few more Feat slots...
If only you could get one tier of mythic to triple that con score to determine negative hp. Sigh.
If your're willing, you can save some feats and get in earlier by just taking to the last instead of the deathless chain. I like to make barbarians with a 1st level unbreakable dip to get this at first level, having 37 HP at level 1 can be a riot.
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To The Last certainly looks the way to go for a dip into the concept, but it doesn't match the Deathless Initiate Feat mechanically, and, for this guy, the later Master and Zealot Feats are something he's designed to get the most out of (rather than the afterthought they can be for some builds).
An alternate build Brawler archetype character with a different concept could go for a bullrush-based attacker, with Spiked Destroyer for added offence (spiked armour being in the 'Close' weapons group too), and use To The Last as a 'just in case' rather than Deathless as being central to the concept. In that case I imagine I'd be going with a Strength-based build.
Realistically, in actual play, I imagine I'd see how the winds of the campaign ended up blowing early on, before commiting one way or the other: sometimes an 'unkillable' build turns out to be pointless, as nothing is coming close to killing even the squishy guys on the team... ;)
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I can see why you want this guy to be Human. Heart of the Wilderness is awesome.
What if the character were a Half-Orc?
I have some experience using Ferocious Resolve and I think it's fantastic. You have to be careful, but it really improves your survivabiliy. Being Half-Orc will free up a feat and you will get all of the same stuff, except Heart of the Wilderness.
I think that Ferocious Resolve is better than Heart of the Wilderness, especially for a melee brute.
Half-Orcs qualify for all of the things in the Orc section of the ARG, assuming you are playing in a home game (not PFS legal).
The Grudge Fighter feat is solid and will fit with your character concept.
The Dirty Fighter archetype also looks pretty cool. There are some guides that can help you get the most out of Dirty Trick. It's not going to improve your DPR directly, but landing constant debuffs on the enemy will do so indirectly. It will be effective regardless of your ability to deal tons of damage.
If you stick with Human, look at To the Last from Inner Sea Gods. It will give you even more durability. It's kind of a Ferocious Resolve "lite"
Everything looks pretty good so far.
All I've gotta say, as someone who's every fighter for a while has been an Orc Unbreakable with tricked out Con.... I've found Zealot to be entirely useless. Then again, maybe the GMs at the time were just unlucky, who knows?
Primary reasons I advise Orcs over Half orcs or Humans. Sure you take a hit to all of your mental scores, but that +4 strength makes up a bit for making sure your Con is the highest stat you have. Ferocity frees up a feat slot since you basically get To the Last or Ferocious Resolve's effect free. Tenacious Survivor is freaking fantastic if you've got a healer, though half-orcs get this one as well. Depending on your GM half-orcs may get this one, but Born Alone is extremely fun when you've got a really high con, with (mostly) every kill granting you temp hp (which is kind of like one-hit DR).
Granted, that's more of a 'meat wall' type of character, which is something I thoroughly enjoy. Situating yourself at a choke point and watch them break upon your shield. YMMV on it.
For your guy, all I can really advise is rid yourself of Zealot, unless you GM is getting incredibly lucky with his rolls. I've never had a GM crit me, or really anyone else in the game more than once or twice. Again, YMMV.
A three level dip in ranger gets you the bonus power attack and endurance along with favored enemy, favored terrain, lots more skill points and class skills, better reflex saves. You wind up with the same amount of feats by level 3 with a little added versatility at the cost of 3 favored class bonuses which is a big deal on this build for sure, but it may open more ideas for item usage and bonuses.
I'd also try to not dump charisma and avoid the weapon specialization feats, and pick two more. Go Eldritch heritage orc bloodline for the inherent +4 strength bonus at 13 and at 17 the ability to enlarge yourself for minutes per day based on character level which comes complete with another +6 to strength, +4 to constitution, and +4 natural armor. The combo nets you a +12 to strength, -2 dex, +4 con, +4 natural armor, +3-6 survival, large size complete with reach, and a one round standard action morale bonus to attack, damage, and will saving throws. If you can get the Optimistic Gambler trait from second darkness your touch of rage lasts 1d4+1 round which makes it very useful to you.
Having a charisma of 11 qualifies you to use silver spindles in late game. A 13 qualifies you for Eldritch heritage and the last +4 can be made up by carrying a rod of splendor.
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Checking it out, Ferocious Resolve or the Ferocity universal monster rule just look like 'Diehard lite' - cool to have for characters not going for Diehard anyway (since you can skip the less helpful Endurance Feat along the way) - but pointless if you do have it, and this guy needs it for the Deathless Feat chain. Definitely something to keep in mind for future builds though.
Going Half-orc looks like it could be an option. He'd lose Heart of the Wilderness (so, for him, the equivilent of 10 hit points by level 20), but he could take Shaman's Apprentice to get Endurance for free, and skip taking Racial Heritage (Orc) (as the FAQ tells us Half-Orcs officially qualify for all things human and orcish, so he could chose the Orc Fighter favoured class bonus anyway). That'd free him up a Feat at level 5 to slot in that awesome Tenacious Survivor Feat you guys have directed me towards and (assuming a Con of 30 by end-game) that extra 3 minutes of 'not quite dead' may well be worth more than Heart of the Wilderness and it's 10 extra hit points. Also (since he'd have no real need for the Orc Ferocity racial trait since he'd take Diehard by level 3), he could take Toothy to get himself a free natural attack each round to help with his DPR issues (and a natural attack as a target of all those nice Druid spells too, if he can find himself a Druid buddy). He could even replace Darkvision with Skilled to score a few more skill points (20 extra skill points by level 20 would be better than the +10 to Survival Heart of the Wilderness would get him)... althougn Darkvision can be very useful too...
Deathless Zealot I think needs to stay, although (as you say, Artemis) how useful it'd be would vary by campaign: NPCs at the higher level can be incredibly dangerous with Criticals (just like the PCs) due the Critical Feats, scimitar-spamming Magi and the like... but monsters a lot less so.
I'd not go for the Eldritch Heritage for the Strength boost, 'cos it's an inherent boost - which doesn't stack with Wish spells or a Manual of Gainful Exercise so (unless in a low magic game) is mostly just saving you some gp in the long run. Ranger dip looks interesting, but on checking it out, I don't think the loss of favoured class bonus and delaying of the Brawler archetype's class features woud be worth it... not for this build, anyhow. Wand use potential would be nice, of course, but I'm hoping he's got a few buddies for that!
So yeah, half-orc is looking like the more rounded option: it'll still take around 410 hit points to slow him down at level 20, but even after that he'd live on for another 3 minutes (no matter how much extra damage he took - can that be right? That Feat is incredible!), and with that Toothy bite attack as a secondary natural to his melee all the way through his career, he'll have done a lot more damage getting there too.
Cool - thanks for all the input guys!
The Eldritch heritage line provides a +6 inherent bonus to strength by level 19. AFAIK you can only hit +5 with manuals and yes, you called it with the saving of 137500 GP of your total wealth, but with a bigger bonus. You also get the enlarge for up to 20 minutes per day that provides a size bonus of +6 strength and +4 con that stacks with inherent bonuses and gives you reach and +4 natural armor that stacks with an amulet of natural armor. So with the book for con and the amulet you get a +9 to con and natural armor. In total the feat line works out to +6 to hit and damage, reach, +3 AC, +2 fort saves, -1 reflex saves, +4 to hp below 0, +40 hp, and +3-6 survival. Dropping the two weapon specialization feats and two shield focuses or dodge and shield focus is only a reduction of 4 damage and 2 AC which is made up for by the other bonuses and then a lot more.
With just improved Eldritch heritage you gain the +6 to strength which is +3 to hit and damage and arguably better than the +2 to hit and +4 to damage from weapon focus/specialization and greater weapon focus/specialization.
If you can access the optimistic gambler trait the first feat of Eldritch heritage also grants a morale bonus of +1 to +10 on attacks, damage, and will saves for 1d4+1 rounds.
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While I see your point, I think in this case it's not worth the 4 Feats and the Charisma he'd need to complete the Feat chain (he'd have to either dump other Ability Scores to start with, or spend gp on a Tome and Headband just to qualify). While the ability to mimic a 7th level spell is nice, he'd not get that until 17th, and he'd not get more than a +2 inherent bonus to Strength until 15th (and +6 only at 17th). The Feats he could fit into his high-level build, but the Charisma just doesn't seem worth the sacrifice at lower levels. Maybe with a bigger points buy to begin with, but this guy needs to lose out somewhere, and I'm afraid that (as it so often if) poor Charisma takes the beating.
Of course, by 17th he could have a +15 bonus to his UMD Skill (assuming no investment in Charisma or the Skill beyond the ranks), so he could use a scroll of a level 6 or 7 spell on a fairly average check (11 or 12), assuming he had enough in the casting Abilty Score to qualify. By 17th he could probably slip a +6 Headband of Vast Intelligence and a few scrolls of giant form into his kit if the whole enlargement idea was tempting by that point... or make friends with a Scarred Witch Doctor with the Strength patron and get him to churn out Con-based scrolls of the same.
The whole point is that you get more bang for your buck with those feats. No monetary investment and you spend the same number of feats. Saying "he'd not get more than a +2 inherent bonus to strength until 15th" is true of buying tomes as well, except at level 15 you could still barely afford to spare the 55,000 gold of your 240,000 wealth by level. That single tome is almost 25% of your characters wealth at level 15 for a +2 bonus. The feats net you a +2 bonus at level 11 and a +4 bonus at level 15 which is a value of a 55,000 GP item at level 11 that increases to a 110,000 GP item at 15 for the cost of 3 feats. At level 11 your WBL is 82000 GP and that feat is a 67% increase of your WBL.
Skill focus survival gives a +3-6 bonus to survival if you like free living in the wilderness along with the ability to track creatures.
The first Eldritch heritage isn't very useful without the optimistic gambler trait, but it's worth being spent for the benefit of the next one in the line.
Using the headband is now another expenditure of 36,000 GP on top of the 55,000 GP manual along with a single use scroll costing 2275 GP. The feat line cost is 3 feats that eventually give you a bonus unattainable with the listed items of the game, but the extrapolation would be 165,000 GP.
You can easily account for the charisma by dropping your initial dexterity to 14 and your intelligence back to 10 and those 7 points will get you back to 13 charisma. Then you purchase a 25,000 GP rod of splendor which provides a +4 charisma enhancement just for carrying it on your person along with a couple other cool tricks. Or just get the 16,000 GP headband if you don't need your headband slot for anything. It's really not that big of an investment. You will lose 1 AC from dex, 1 reflex save, 1 initiative, and 1 skill point for level. It allows you to drop your trait that gives intelligence to intimidate and put a trait into an initiative boost of +2, a +1 to reflex saves, or a +1 to AC when wearing armor or using a shield.
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Level: Fighter (Brawler) 1
Height: 6’2”, Weight: 262 lbs, Eyes: steel grey, Skin: grey and scarred, Hair: long black
Speed 30 feet
Base Attack Bonus +1
CMB +3, CMD 16
Save Vs: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +2
Armour Class 21 = 10 + Dexterity +3, Armour +6, Shield +2
Flat-footed 18, Touch 13
Hit Points: 18 [1d10 +2 Constitution +6 Tribal Scars]
Attacks:
Spiked Heavy Shield – Attack +3 [1d6+2 piercing damage]
Cestus – Attack +3 [1d4+2 bludgeoning or piercing damage, critical 19/20]
Sap – Attack +3 [1d6+2 nonlethal bludgeoning damage]
Bite – Attack +3 [1d4+3 piercing]
Bite (as a Secondary natural attack) – Attack -2 [1d4+1 piercing]
Sling – Attack +4 [1d4+2 bludgeoning damage, 50ft range increment]
Abilities:
Str 14 [+2] Dex 16 [+3] Con 14 [+2] Int 12 [+1] Wis 12 [+1] Cha 7 [-2]
Racial Traits:
Medium
Normal Speed
Shaman’s Apprentice
Toothy
Skilled
Favoured Class Bonus:
Fighter (Orc): +2 to Constitution score for the purposes of determining when he dies from negative hit points
Traits:
Bruising Intellect (Social): Uses Intelligence modifier instead of Charisma modifier on Intimidate checks
[Reserved for campaign trait]
Class Features:
Bonus Feat
Feats:
Simple Weapons Proficiency
Martial Weapons Proficiency
Armour Proficiency (light)
Armour Proficiency (medium)
Armour Proficiency (heavy)
Shield Proficiency
Tower Shield Proficiency
Tribal Scars (Slothjaw) (+6 HP, +1 Will Saves, +2 Handle Animal checks)
Endurance [Shaman’s Apprentice Bonus Feat]
Improved Shield Bash [Fighter Bonus Feat]
Skills:
Climb +1 (=+1 rank +3 class +2 Str -5 ACP [assuming he’s not using his shield at the time, otherwise -7 ACP for a total -1 skill check])
Handle Animal +4 (=+1 rank +3 class -2 Cha +2 Tribal Scars)
Intimidate +5 (= +1 rank +3 class +1 Int [Bruising Intellect trait])
Survival +5 (= +1 rank +3 class, +1 Wis)
Languages:
Common, Orc, Hallit
Possessions:
Explorer’s Outfit (free)
Spiked Heavy Wooden Shield (17gp) (ACP -2)
Steel Lamellar Armour (150gp) (ACP -5)
Cestus (5gp)
Sap (1gp)
Sling (free)
Sling bullets x10 (1sp)
Bedroll (1sp)
Canvas – square yard (1sp)
Fishhook (1sp)
Flint and steel (1gp)
Lamp (1sp)
Oil – 1 pint flask (1sp)
Sacks x3 (3sp)
Torches x5 (5cp)
Twine – 50ft (1cp)
4 copper pieces
Suggested Future Direction:
Level 2: Power Attack B
Level 3: Diehard
Level 4: +1 Con (15), Two-Weapon Fighting B
Level 5: Ironhide
Level 6: Shield Slam B
Level 7: Spiked Destroyer
Level 8: +1 Con (16), Deathless Initiate B
Level 9: Deathless Master
Level 10: Double Slice B
Level 11: Shield Master
Level 12: +1 Con (17), Deathless Zealot B
Level 13: Tenacious Survivor
Level 14: Weapon Focus (Heavy Spiked Shield) B
Level 15: Weapon Specialization (Heavy Spiked Shield)
Level 16: +1 Con (18), Greater Weapon Focus (Heavy Spiked Shield) B
Level 17: Toughness
Level 18: Greater Weapon Specialization (Heavy Spiked Shield)B
Level 19: Martial Versatility (Weapon Focus)
Level 20: +1 Con (19), Martial Mastery B
Okay, so I’ve gone half-orc and swapped a few things around to give him more offense. By level 20 he’ll need to be reduced to a whopping 40 points more than his Con score below negative before he even slows down. By level 20 (without adding any magic) he should be on around 220 hit points (114 from hit dice, 6 from Tribal Scars, 20 from Toughness and 80 from a +4 Con bonus). Assuming a +5 inherent and +6 enhancement bonus to Con by that point, he’d have Con 30, so an extra 120 hit points on top of that, for 340 total (410 points of damage to stop him).
In this version he starts with 2 attacks (two-handing the spiked shield plus his bite as a secondary natural attack). He picks up TWF at 4th, for another attack (he’ll be using spiked armour by then). At 6th he gets another attack (from BAB) and the Shield Slam (his primary attack) is knocking enemies all over the show (and prone too, if there are handy walls about). At 7th he gets Spiked Destroyer, which lets him make a swift action armour spikes attack on anyone he successfully bull rushes – which is what those Shield Slam attacks are doing, so he’s essentially up to 5 attacks. The next few levels are the whole Deathless chain, Tenacious Survivor, and rounding out his shield-fighting skills (getting Shield Master both eliminates his penalties for TWF with a shield and gains him extra gp, ‘cos his shield’s shield bonus becomes an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls too). His top levels are now devoted to first getting the Weapon Focus and Specialization (and Greater) Feats, then taking the human Feats that let him apply them to everything in the Close weapons group (including his spiked armour).
By 20th (before any magic) he’ll have his 4 iterative attacks (shield slams), an off-hand with his armour spikes, a swift armour spikes attack against a target he manages to bull rush with one of those shield slams, and his trusty bite. So 7 attacks. With Close Combatant and his weapon Feats he’ll be at +7 to attack and +11 to damage on the shield and armour attacks, before Strength or Power Attack or magic is added in. The whole Shield Slam thing gives him some nice battlefield control early on, and he’s got more offense overall. I also like the way he uses the half-orc’s ‘orc blood’ racial trait to its fullest, cherry picking from the orc (favoured class bonus), half-orc (Tenacious Survivor) and human (Martial Versatility and Martial Mastery) selections.
Better, yes?
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That looks awesome. I think you will enjoy it; the Brawler in our DD group is really having a great time with the class.
Check this out:
Tourmaline Sphere
Not bad for 1000gp.
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That could be a cool ioun stone for this guy, Tomos... although I wonder how it'd work for most people (as ioun stones are meant to stop functioning when you're comatose... maybe 'unconscious and dying' is classed differently to 'comatose' in game terms?).
You make a good point, Lezard_Valeth, although I think with his rebuild he's mostly avoiding that by focusing on the Shield Slams, which don't provoke (although they're not based on CMB either). In other situations then, yeah, he'd want to avoid being hit first (although squishy Wizard-types often can't AoO for toffee... may want to avoid that Magus though...).
not to horribly derail the topic, but cant a barbarian also use a shield, while also getting access to the flesh wound and (greater) guarded life powers--on top of the deathless feats?
The main issue with Barbarian is two-fold:
1.) Deathless line is super Feat intensive (5 Feats total, though you could ignore Zealot. Actually maybe more because I think it requires Ironhide for Master).
2.) Barbarian doesn't get that sweet sweet +2 Con to determine when you die per level.
I've built both (my current Barbarian was initially going to be that), but it's not worth it without that Con bonus.
I think Unbreakable is worth looking into though, with Heroic Resolve and all. Shores up the poor saves problem pretty well.
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The problem with the Unbreakable archetype is that it gives up Weapon Training and doesn't replace it with anything comparable. If all you're after is a 'meat shield' with hardly any damaging offensive ability (say, if you use the Antagonize Feat to draw agro, or focus on a trip build or something) then it's fine, but if you want your Fighter to deal reasonable damage as well, then it's a non-starter. That sort of choice will, of course, depend a lot on the play style you're after and the composition of the rest of the PC party (if you, say, have a save-or-suck Wizard or two on your team, then actual damage dealing may be irrelevant: your entire job in combat will be keeping 'Mr Pointy-hat and Robes' alive until he can drop the bad guys).
Actually... My Unbreakable Orc was quite proficient at dealing high amounts of damage. Maybe not AMBARBARIAN, but that's not the point of the a "Deathless" character IMO. You might have that problem of low-damage dealing with non-orcs, but a full orc gets a nice beefy +4 bonus to STR, and going full fighter gives you enough feats to pick up stuff to help said damage.
High crit weps are your friend.
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True, Artemis, but a non-Unbreakable could have all that and an extra 20% chance to hit (25% for a Brawler), an extra +4 damage per hit (+7 for a Brawler), and better criticals (thanks to Weapon Mastery) by level 20. So while, yes, an Unbreakable can do damage, they'll always be doing less damage than a comparable non-Unbreakable - which is fair, as that's the trade-off for his superior resistence to various effects. So it's a case of what you're going for, really. What I was going for with this character was a Deathless-based build who's still impressive in combat, rather than a guy who's immune to all effects.
the trick for a deathless barbarian is to look at what feats you really need. Only Deathless Initiate is worth taking in the deathless line. While the fighter is focusing on having a huge negative health pool to play in, the barbarian has a somewhat more narrow pool mitigated by massive DR, and then that massive DR again x2 via guarded life for every single hit. I can't understand your fighter at 16 having a roughly -60hp health pool when your barbarian can have -30ish at level 16 but also 17 points of DR.
The first 17 HP of any melee hit are gone via DR17/-, if the attack brings your health total under 0 (and any negative number is below 0, so it applies on all hits under 0) then you convert 34 of the damage after DR to non lethal, and because you have 17DR that applies *2 vs non lethal you just made it so a hit would have to do more than 51 damage (for melee/physical) or 34 damage (non physical) just to make you look at using something like ferocious tenacity. The math also lines up so you never actually get any non lethal damage like this.
Now remember that next 34 damage from guarded life will apply to anything, even stuff DR wouldnt normally cover, that's worth as much on every single attack under 0 as the whole additional fighter health pool.
In the event of a damage overload, the barbarian can resort to Ferocious Tenacity to knock off damage and continue this style of play well past anything the fighter could manage.
Your fighter is focused on staying alive under 0, and he can't even outperform the barbarian for one hit in this mechanic.
on the subject of survivability: what of the samurai class and it's resolve ability? anything y'all can use there?
(i'm totally not fishing for ideas on all-rounder beefcake builds)
I think the Samurai makes for a great survivor type, but as far as focusing on the deathless line or negative hitpoint play I don't think it's productive. The Samurai has his resolve to play with and when that runs low he just needs to play less aggressively. I've seen it in play, however, and it was pretty good.
One bonus for the Samurai is that he can use his resolve right away for more than just damage, he also mitigates missed saves which is an option these guys don't get (without feat investments which are hard to justify).
I would say the barbarian build will destroy the samurai in late levels for going and standing in the worst possible place taking massive damage. The Samurai will be better than all builds in the first 5 levels and shouldn't need to invest feats in survivability, relying on his resolve to keep him around.