Monsters with Wish / Miracle


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


There appears to be no reason why a Solar or Pit Fiend over the course of their long lifetimes wouldn't have invested 30 wishes in giving themselves +5 to every stat. Can we assume that monsters with wish/miracle have already done so and those +5's are already built into their stat blocks?

Is there any reason why such monsters wouldn't have every single personal permanency spell cast upon themselves before they get introduced to the campaign? As a spell like ability, it doesn't require any material components


Stealth.

With how it is right now, they can sneak around and potentially not get seen. Permanency all of those abilities? They would light up the surrounding area like a bonfire the moment someone used detect magic. And given how common that spell is...


Also of note is that pit fiends get wish 1/year and solars get it 1/day. You need to cast wish spells in immediate succession to gain more then a +1 bonus.

EDIT: And is coincidentally why they don't have all of the permanency spells on themselves.


MagusJanus wrote:

Stealth.

With how it is right now, they can sneak around and potentially not get seen. Permanency all of those abilities? They would light up the surrounding area like a bonfire the moment someone used detect magic. And given how common that spell is...

Alternatively, they also have a permanent Misdirection up.


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I can think of reasons why they would not have that.

They can't. That'd be one.

In order for the ability increasing property of wish/miracle to actually have any effect beyond +1, the following increases must happen in immediate succession. A Pit Fiend, who can only cast wish once per year, cannot do that, not under his own power at least, so there's your first reason. Solars can stretch it further, but that brings me to my second reason.

There are -waaaay- more important things to spend that wish/miracle on.

If you're a Pit Fiend, keeper of an infernal citadel, tasked with being general for your own hellish legion, as well as acting as taskmaster and governor to hundreds of thousands of souls, devils and ambitious mortal agents on the different planes, you can bet your sweet mollys I'm not gonna spend my singlularly most powerful ability, that I can only use once per year, to help me benchpress a few more pounds. That wish is being used to raise a new citadel(that is needed RIGHT NOW, this INSTANT), to cover an entire base of operations of mine from teleportation, shifting and scrying, or to suddenly open a gate to any plane I wish and launch a surprise-attack with my legions against an area I want to control/demolish to further my plans.

Or I could be holding onto that wish to save my hide in case of an emergency. I could be holding onto that wish just so I have it ready, in case one of my infernal rivals decide to play his hand against me and try to take my position, or claim my holdings for himself.

Now if I'm a Solar, I may be able to cast these abilities once or twice every DAY. Such power! But what am I charged with protecting in exchange for this power? I am a Solar! I am -the- last resort. I am more powerful even than the personal heralds of the gods themselves. When I teleport onto The Fields of Jade and Bone, to assist the Valiant Order of the Shining Shield in stopping marauding hordes of Leng-creatures from pouring into the Prime Material Plane, am I going to do so without my Wish? When my divine benefactor speaks to me, and tells me that once more this day, the Archduke of the 444 circles, the great Daemon Prince Malkyron, attempts to reap a lifetree on Sovyrion, do I want to face him and his 16 Deathless Champions WITHOUT my Miracles? When a cataclysm is about to strike a world and my benefactor sends me to grant them salvation, am I going to give the continent-destroying tidal-wave a stern talking-to, or am I gonna lift my hand and set reality right, for the good of the Light, and unyielding justice?

tl:dr - cuz they have better things to do with their wishes and miracles

-Nearyn


Solars can have 4 miracles and 1 wish every day. I think in the many thousands of years they've been alive, there's gotta be a few days where they have some downtime.

For Pit Fiends, it's a little trickier. They basically have to have cabals of 5 pit fiends who sign ironclad agreements with each other to boost 1 of them at a time per year until they all are maxed out. They're all LE and masterful lawyers who can scrutinize all agreements to make sure no pit fiend in the cabal can weasel out of the agreement after they've already benefited. It would take 150 years for all the pit fiends in a single cabal to complete their rituals of power, but that is an eyeblink to such ancient and powerful beings.


Celanian wrote:
Solars can have 4 miracles and 1 wish every day. I think in the many thousands of years they've been alive, there's gotta be a few days where they have some downtime.

I guess they can take a day off. They've only got all of creation to protect :)

Celanian wrote:
For Pit Fiends, it's a little trickier. They basically have to have cabals of 5 pit fiends who sign ironclad agreements with each other to boost 1 of them at a time per year until they all are maxed out. They're all LE and masterful lawyers who can scrutinize all agreements to make sure no pit fiend in the cabal can weasel out of the agreement after they've already benefited. It would take 150 years for all the pit fiends in a single cabal to complete their rituals of power, but that is an eyeblink to such ancient and powerful beings.

And then, on the 56th year, a single rival of theirs that only needed to have 1 spy in the right place, strikes at them when they are at their weakest, piling all his strength and ressources into a single, devastating assault that leaves all 5 of the now wishless Pit Fiends, completely at his mercy. Then the rival Pit Fiend assumes direct control of their collective holdings and servants. And that, children, is how infernal dukes are born. Building empires on the crushed ambitions of those of lesser vision than themselves. >:)

-Nearyn


I doubt very much that a Solar would run into 365 CR 23 appropriate encounters every single year that would force them to use 5 wish/miracles each encounter. Or they could work in groups of 2-5 and each one uses 1-3 wish/miracle each day and still have plenty of resources to handle their encounters. Or cast just before they rest and refresh their spells like they normally would anyway.

The cabal of pit fiends would not only have everything securely warded (SOP in Hell), but they would do the ritual at the last day of the year so that they would refresh that ability immediately.

Also I highly doubt that pit fiends are that helpless even if they've used their wish. Otherwise they could NEVER use that ability if it were that easy for a rival to dispose of them.


Since I've read no official material, stating outright, why these creatures do or do not use their wishes to boost their stats, I can only offer you opinion, of course :)

Feel free to run your tables any way you want to.

But as far as -my- opinion goes, I -do- believe that Solars are bogged down almost ALL the time. I imagine there are 2 kinds of Solars, those who are actively pursueing EXTREMELY important and difficult objectives on behalf of their deity, and those who are standing vigil and are expected to have their most powerful abilities ready. In case Razmagor Sinspeaker, Pit Fiend duke and keeper of the 88 concentric circles, decides to shift 999.999 devils into the Halls of Radiance, in yet another attempt to blacken the sun. Or you know, some equally horrible catastrophy.

But yeah, as said: Opinion is just that, opinion.

-Nearyn


I personally think Solars already have the +5's built into their stats. It just makes sense that their deity (being extremely intelligent and wise) would recognize that a servant with +5 to all stats would be MUCH better equipped to deal with Razmagor Sinspeaker, Pit Fiend duke and keeper of the 88 concentric circles. He would recognize that a single week of preparations would pay dividends for thousands of high level encounters over the eons.

In most non-evil armies, the generals usually try and give their troops the best training and equipment possible before sending them into battle.


At any table there could only be limited number of pit fiends and solars so the conservation of the resource would make a bit more sense....I'll also parrot Celanian's idea that the +5's may be built in already.


Maybe Solars forge a contract with higher level LG and NG spellcasters and get snowcone wish machines of themselves to buff their heavenly host. ;)


I think it would depend on the Solar/Pit Fiends job. If I was making one the solo Champion of X that the party had to punch out, I would probably assume they would use wish to upgrade their stats. If he/she was leading 1 million souls into combat, upgrading their stats seems a little wasteful...


Mechagamera wrote:
I think it would depend on the Solar/Pit Fiends job. If I was making one the solo Champion of X that the party had to punch out, I would probably assume they would use wish to upgrade their stats. If he/she was leading 1 million souls into combat, upgrading their stats seems a little wasteful...

I don't know... if he's making telepathic bond permanent on his captains for speed of communication... I could see that. And s/he might need more than the 3/day permanency spell-likes they get... but that's just a utility ability and not stats. I can see a leader wanting more charisma and wisdom. And if they lead from the front, I can see more strength and constitution being useful.

But barring shenanigans, as Nearyn pointed out, Solars would more than likely save wishes and miracles because they can do so much more with them in a clutch than a +5 to a stat.


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Given that these creatures can manage one wish at a time, they could raise each stat by one point -- so it is probably safe to assume that they have already done so, and their default stats reflect that 1 point increase to all stats.

Now if their divine patrons are really nice to them and give them additional wishes to boost all of their stats by +5, the Advanced template (which grants +4 to all stats) would accurately reflect the effect of those wishes.

Sczarni

As far as lighting things up with "detect magic" - that is like the lowest level Divination spell there is, right? Most things that block divination also block this spell. Mind Blank certainly does (oh, what, WISH is blocked, but a first level spell isn't? You didn't read it right, methinks).

It is pretty easy to stealth once you get a Mind Blank spell put on you... you don't glow at all. (likewise "see invisible" might not even work against you).

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