Crits with Combat Manuevers or Aid Another (for Grit / Panache and other crit abilities)

[HSalgo]

(Accidentally posted this question in the General Discussion forum, so I'm moving the question here. Some previous answers can be found here.)

Certain abilities activate upon confirming a critical hit, such as regaining rage from the Gore Fiend feat, regaining grit points for Gunslingers, and regaining panache points for Swashbucklers. (I'm sure there are also other abilities that I can't think up right now.)

I wonder whether one could confirm critical hits with combat maneuvers that involve a weapon (i.e. disarm, sunder, and trip (according to Weapon Finesse FAQ) or the Aid Another action. There are various reasons for and against allowing crits with combat maneuvers and/or Aid Another:

FOR:
1) Both combat maneuvers and Aid Another involve making attack rolls against CMD and AC 10 respectively (see quote below). If crits can occur on any attack roll, then they should be permissible here.

Quote:

Determine Success

If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect.

2) Both combat maneuvers and Aid Another use bonuses from your weapons. As such, they should have the option of critting with the weapon's crit range.

3) Even if a crit has no effect on the CM or the AA result (and it shouldn't, since crits only double damage, and neither does damage except for sunder, but items are immune to crits), there is no reason why a crit should not activate other abilities. There's no reason why a particularly fantastic combat maneuver shouldn't restore panache, for example.

AGAINST:
1) One could argue that if an attack roll doesn't do damage, it shouldn't be able to crit.
2) Crits might be limited ONLY to the "attack action," as interpreted from the quote:

Quote:

Automatic Misses and Hits

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action).

3) Crit THREATS might only be allowed when attacking AC, as interpreted from the quote:

Quote:

Critical Hits

When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a "threat," meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or "crit").

4) There is already a clarification about 20's being automatic successes and 1's being automatic failures for combat maneuvers in particular (see quote below). This might imply that critical threats might not be a thing for combat maneuvers.

Quote:

Determining Success

Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure.

5) Aid Another critical hits seem far too easy to confirm (given that the target is AC 10). As such, it might be unfair to allow crits using Aid Another to activate crit abilities.

Any thoughts or opinions would be welcome.

[Mojorat]

I don't think combat maneuvers can critical. First there is no information suggesting they can explicitly. Secondly the la language that discusses using combat maneuvers on helpless or nearly helpless people simply says to treat the roll as a 20.

The /only/ thing that might suggest you can critical with a combat maneuver is the faq you referenced. Simply because it is simply reiterating thatbcombat maneuvers are attack rolls. However combat maneuvers except sunder don't inherently do damage.

[RedDogMT]

Combat Maneuver do use an attack roll, so a natural 20 is an auto-success.

As far as combat maneuver critical hits, what benefits would there be? For example...
...Sunder cannot crit since objects are immune to critical hits
...Grapple cannot crit since the check is to maintain. Damage is a side effect.
...Disarm cannot crit as there is no damage
I cannot think of any combat maneuver that a critical hit would cause a benefit.

As for Aid Another, since it is an attack roll against AC 10 it is an auto-success on a 20...but again, you are not striking a creature for damage, so what benefit would a critical hit have?

[HSalgo]

RedDogMT wrote:

I cannot think of any combat maneuver that a critical hit would cause a benefit.

As I stated in the question, I agree with you--a critical with a combat maneuver or aid another action provides no benefit to the combat maneuver or to the aid another bonus.

The question is whether a critical hit would trigger crit-activated abilities, like regaining panache points.

[kinevon]

RedDogMT wrote:

Combat Maneuver do use an attack roll, so a natural 20 is an auto-success.

As far as combat maneuver critical hits, what benefits would there be? For example...
...Sunder cannot crit since objects are immune to critical hits
...Grapple cannot crit since the check is to maintain. Damage is a side effect.
...Disarm cannot crit as there is no damage
I cannot think of any combat maneuver that a critical hit would cause a benefit.

As for Aid Another, since it is an attack roll against AC 10 it is an auto-success on a 20...but again, you are not striking a creature for damage, so what benefit would a critical hit have?

Possible benefit:

Butterfly's Sting, using a high crit weapon, with Improved Critical, for a Trip or Disamr.

Using Butterfly's Sting would pass the confirmed critical to your next ally who hit the target in melee, which, for trip, using Greater Trip, might be from their AoO as the enemy gets tripped.

Of interest to me, since I have a trip/disarm build who also has Bitterfly's Sting...

[Flynn Walker]

Also, the Aldori Swordlord Fighter Archetype has the ability "Disarming Strike," where a successful disarm also does damage. Makes sense for that to be able to crit.

[HSalgo]

Sorry, still looking for an answer for a PFS session I'm playing tonight. Does anyone else have any knowledge about this?

[James Risner]

Core p184 wrote:

Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit ... threat ... critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit

Core p199 wrote:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll

There is no rule stating you need to roll your confirmation on a CMB, but there is no rule saying you don't roll it. If it matters (like you have something that triggers off a critical) you should be allowed to roll to confirm the Combat Maneuver.