Lot of different questions in your post, so it'll take a while.
On the first point, your immunity to Fort saves is not universal.
From the undead subtype:
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
If a caster points a disintegrate spell at you, you'll go *poof*.
I didn't see this before. Hold on, it'll take some time to go over your questions. So, pardon me...
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Now onto Magic Jar. First the full description:
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a gem or crystal worth at least 100 gp)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 hour/level or until you return to your body
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar. You may move back to the jar (thereby returning the trapped soul to its body) and attempt to possess another body. The spell ends when you send your soul back to your own body, leaving the receptacle empty. To cast the spell, the magic jar must be within spell range and you must know where it is, though you do not need line of sight or line of effect to it. When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead.
While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures. You cannot determine the exact creature types or positions of these creatures. In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more HD between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. (Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)
You could choose to take over either a stronger or a weaker creature, but which particular stronger or weaker creature you attempt to possess is determined randomly.
Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and force the creature's soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.
As a standard action, you can shift freely from a host to the magic jar if within range, sending the trapped soul back to its body. The spell ends when you shift from the jar to your own body.
If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.
If the spell ends while you are in the magic jar, you return to your body (or die if your body is out of range or destroyed). If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position), and the soul in the magic jar returns to its body (or dies if it is out of range). Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host's location.
Lot of stuff, but it's an intricate spell.
First of all, the important bit:
The only thing that seems possible when you're inside the gem is to attack the life force of nearby targets. It's the *only thing you can perceive* when inside the gem.
You're basically a genie in a bottle with the stopper on. You can't do anything else aside from looking out the window for souls.
When the spell ends, you shunt back to your body.
Range is based on the spell range, i.e. 100ft+10ft/lvl, and you need line of effect between jar and targets.
If you possess a body, you keep you own mental stats but gain the target's physical ones. Class abilities are your own, but creature powers aren't unless they're automatic (regeneration and DR, but not spell like abilities). In a living target, you're no longer an undead and lose the undead pros/cons. A big CON creature gives you big extra hps, and unless the target body is also an undead subtype, CHA bonus hit points go poof (no double-dipping HPs).
Now for specific powers once in a jar or new body, it's a bit more tricky and may be case by case. As a DM, I recently used magic jar on a shadow dancer PC, and I let him communicate with his shadow, but that was the extent of it. But Hollywood-type monster possessions usually allow them to keep using a lot of their mental powers (and sometimes super physical abilities).
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As noted above, it's a complicated series of questions with at least a few vague answers, but we'll try - hopefully you'll get more responses as more information and opinions are better than less. :)
Okay, let's get crackin'!
()*
If I am in a vampire am I immune to spells that use a fort save?
No. You are immune to effects that require a fortitude save unless they work on an object - there are quite a few effects that also work on an object that require fortitude saves. In any event, you apply your CHA modifier to your fortitude save instead of your CON modifier.
What about all the rest to undead goodness? (I assume mind effecting works)
...?
Okay, you've got a number of questions about the undead subtype and how that interacts with vampires.
Let's look at undead traits (<- link) together.
Undead
Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.
An undead creature has the following features.
d8 Hit Die.
Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (medium progression).
Good Will Saves.
Skill points equal to 4 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. Many undead, however, are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. The following are class skills for undead: Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Stealth.
Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution(such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC).
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
Per the spell magic jar: "Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls." This is an important sentence when considering any spells or effects which reference "souls."
(bold mine)
Note that it gives them immunity to mind-affecting effects, so those do not work against a vampire, even though the vampire is not mindless.
(Note: I do not actually necessarily agree with the rules on this - I feel that this might be overwhelming the potency of undead, but, by the same token, I've certainly utilized this myself as both GM and player, and it's been quite powerful story-wise, so it's also kind of cool...)
I have used a spirit jar and the spell ends while I am in a body do I stay in the body or get sucked back to the jar?
Let's look at spirit jar (<- link).
Jars, Spirit
Source Pathfinder #27Aura moderate necromancy; CL 7th
Slot none; Price 26,250 gp; Weight 2 lbs. a pieceDESCRIPTION
Typically found in sets of three, these clay jars are decorated with the heads of animals and monsters. Though they once likely contained the preserved viscera of ancient scholars, nobles, and priests, the jars now hold little more than dust. Their true value lies in the benefits they provide spellcasters seeking to transpose their souls via the spell magic jar. Spirit jars serve as focus items for the spell magic jar, forgoing the spell’s need for another focus. All three jars function in this way, allowing a caster to move his soul or that of a nearby target into any one of the three jars, or his own soul between jars and bodies as he pleases. The jars do not allow him to shuffle souls other than his own into different bodies, though he can shift souls between jars.Spirit jars are permanently affected by magic jar, and can potentially be kept trapped within forever. A caster can only move his soul between bodies while his casting of magic jar is in effect. If his spell expires while he is within a Spirit jar, his soul and those in the other jars are trapped. A soul within a Spirit jar can be freed by opening the jar, allowing the spirit within to try to swap souls with that of the jar’s holder as per the spell magic jar (a DC 17 Will save to resist), or return to its body if it is within range. Alternatively, casting magic jar on an Spirit jar containing a spirit, rather than an individual creature, allows that spirit to swap bodies as if it were the target of the spell. Should a spirit within a Spirit jar no longer have a body or be outside its jar when its magic jar spell ends, it returns to one of the empty Spirit jars if one is in range, or dies if one is not.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, gentle repose, magic jar; Cost 13,125 gp
(bold mine)
So he's trapped within the jar, or he dies if the jars are all full and he's not within range of the spell. What happens when a vampire "dies"? I dunno - it's a similar question to "what happens when a vampire gets hit by a disintegration ray and turns to fine ash": to me, the answer is clearly (to quote a terrible line) "the same thing that happens to everything else" (i.e. they're gone for good), while some GMs may prefer to say it's like killing them without going through the stake-through-the-heart/drowning/sun-exposure methods (they turn into gaseous form an head toward their nearest coffin asap).
Can a caster with silent, stilled, componentless dispel magic try to break the effect while in the jar?
This is an interesting question indeed. As the spirit jar doesn't say anything about that, let's look at magic jar (<- link).
Magic Jar
School necromancy; Level alchemist 5, sorcerer/wizard 5, summoner 4, witch 5CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a gem or crystal worth at least 100 gp)EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration 1 hour/level or until you return to your body
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar. You may move back to the jar (thereby returning the trapped soul to its body) and attempt to possess another body. The spell ends when you send your soul back to your own body, leaving the receptacle empty. To cast the spell, the magic jar must be within spell range and you must know where it is, though you do not need line of sight or line of effect to it. When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead.While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures. You cannot determine the exact creature types or positions of these creatures. In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more HD between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. (Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)
You could choose to take over either a stronger or a weaker creature, but which particular stronger or weaker creature you attempt to possess is determined randomly.
Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and force the creature's soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.
As a standard action, you can shift freely from a host to the magic jar if within range, sending the trapped soul back to its body. The spell ends when you shift from the jar to your own body.
If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.
If the spell ends while you are in the magic jar, you return to your body (or die if your body is out of range or destroyed). If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position), and the soul in the magic jar returns to its body (or dies if it is out of range). Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host's location.
(bold done by me - some of it is used now, some of it is used later)
So, since it says only that the soul is "trapped" not that the soul is "helpless" or similar, I'd say that yes, you could end the spell early with a proper dispel effect. Clever.
Do the jars have to be with in magic jar range of each other to transfer souls between them?
This is a fair question. See the parts that I bolded above? They replace the Focus; they are the focus. That means that each of them need to be within the range of the spell... and thus, presumably (although an argument could be made differently, it would likely be a weak argument, in my estimation) they need to stay within range of each other.
A vampire's HP is base on CHA, do I recalculate based on mine? What if I buff cha while in the vamps body?
No. The body retains its own hit points. See bold above.
vampire defensive abilities:
A vampire gains channel resistance +4, DR 10/magic and silver, and resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, in addition to all of the defensive abilities granted by the undead type. A vampire also gains fast healing 5. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, a vampire assumes gaseous form (see below) and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can normally travel up to 9 miles in 2 hours.) Additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest, the vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.
I'm going to copy/paste the relevant parts of the magic jar spell:
You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.
So, looking at the vampire template (<-link), let's figure this out.
What of this works or does not work. I figure resistances work and fast healing. Not sure on the gaseous form thing.
These all work, except for gaseous form: it specifically notes that it's a supernatural ability and states that a vampire assumes the form, meaning it activates the ability; this is actually strange, to me, and I'd probably rule differently (that it's automatic), but that's how it reads to me.
I can spider climb and do not cast a shadow? I can not use children of the night, dominate and gas form?
It seems that you may spiderclimb and cast no shadow - these appear to be abilities that you don't activate, but are inherent to the vampire.
Can I drain blood, energy drain or make spawn. Those are triggered not activated. If I make spawn who controls it?
Hm... drain blood is interesting. You can't choose to drain blood, without a grapple, but if you establish and maintain a pin, it reads as you automatically draining blood. Thus, although I suspect it's against intent, I'd say that the rule seems to be that you do this.
Drain energy automatically occurs whenever something is hit by your slam attack or other natural weapon. Thus you can drain energy.
You cannot create spawn. It says that a vampire "can" create spawn, not that a vampire "does" create spawn - in other words, it's not an automatic response, but an optional one; this means that you are not able to do so.
If the vampire automatically created spawn, the limits on what it could control would severely hamper how effective a vampire was in combat - it would not be able to afford to fight for long, and certainly wouldn't kill a creature with its abilities, because it might accidentally create more spawn than it could control... and no one wants that!
(Could make a really neat story, though.)
(If your GM ruled that you could or did create spawn, however, I'd suggest that it's much more difficult to tell who controlled them. GMs worried about power-management may rule that the vampire controls them, GMs focused on empowerment may rule that the magic jar-user controls them, and GMs who want a strange and dangerous system may rule that the magic jar-user controls them... until the spell ends, at which point, the original vampire asserts control or that some go with the magic jar-user and some go with the vampire - the last two are great story fodder, actually.)
Do I get the physical skill bonuses? Mental ones?
You would keep your own skills... sort of.
This isn't strictly covered in the text above, but...
You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities.
... implies to me that you keep your skills. That said, I suspect that you do gain the vampire's bonuses. These would fall under "automatic" abilities, though some GMs might argue against the bluff and sense motive since those are "mental abilities". To me, then, it's up to the GM.
Thus, ask your GM. There are some ambiguities here, and some things just need a GM to adjucate.
Happy gaming!
*
EDIT: Fixed some quote tags, also at least partially ninja'd by Cranky Dog, twice!
You use ALL of the host body's stats with the exception of spells and spell-like abilities, which do not stay with the body, and level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities (the only thing left relatively ambiguous), where you substitute your own variables.
You also can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities.
This means that you gain the vampire's type (undead) as well as all of his immunities and vulnerabilities.
Ugh, too early in the morning. I misread the first line of the OP.
I thought you were a vampire, not in a vampire.
Ugh, too early in the morning. I misread the first line of the OP.
I thought you were a vampire, not in a vampire.
Hahah! I did until about half-way through my post, too, so, you know. It's easy to do. :D
Sorry about the phrasing and thanks for the responses.
Actually, the phrasing was correct. I suspect it was just confirmation bias/presumptions on our part that made us skip the "in".
I thought that mind effecting spells would still work because they target you and not the vampire. Even a spell like charm person could work on you. On the other hand, control/command undead would fail.
This makes sense and is reasonable - the fact that you're undead though means that, as an automatic ability, RAW, it would stay. It's up to you.
I would tend to side with gaseous form being automatic at 0 but you can not activate it on your own.
That's fine - so long as you're the GM (or your GM agrees), there's no problem with that. I could see it going either way, really - due to the wording of the ability, it kind of looks more like, "this is what they do" in terms of action, but I can definitely see that taken as an automatic response.
Blood drain I think is a no go base on what you said. I am not sure they have to drain blood from a pinned victim.
See, that's the thing: I wouldn't have until I really read the ability.
It starts out by saying he "can" suck (like spawn) from a grappled opponent, but then it says that "if the vampire establishes or maintains a pin, it drains blood" implying that it just does. To me, this is very evocative of the kind of unrestrained hunger: the idea that the vampire becomes a creature of impulse instead of self control.
That said, I have no problem negating that. Due to the wording with "can" I can easily see it argued the other way, and I've no dog in this fight. :)
Missed the "Can" in create spawn, that one is a no go.
So no for the weird on.
Fair deal.
A vampire has 10d8 HD that have all been trained up to max. That is 80 HD and that will override what ever you have. Lets say he is also wearing a headband of Cha +2. That would add 10 more HP. Who is wearing the headband when the vampire soul is in the jar? If I get the band for my cha do I lose 10 HP because the vamps cha went down? My cha is used for fort saves, can my mod replace the vamp's mod for HP?
Weird corner case on that one.
The vampire's hit points are, technically, determined by the vampire. This is a weird corner case, because the intent seems to be that, since the hit points come from the body via CON, and CON stays with the body, the hit points are determined by CON.
However, the wording is different from that: the wording is explicit in making the hit points part of the body regardless: in other words, they stay the same. This is borne out by the fact that, despite retaining your own levels, base attack, and base saves, you retain the body's hit points.
So, yeah: you keep the vampire's original hit points, and don't change anything, even if your charisma is different (and does replace vampy's for purposes of the fortitude).
My supposition is that they did things this way for simplification over-all.
As for a vampire wearing a crown, it would certainly up his hit points. What happens after the crown is removed depends entirely on how long he'd had the crown on. If he's worn it for 24 hours or longer, from what I can tell, he retains the bonus hit points (until it's been off of his head for 24 hours).
Your own crown wouldn't count.
As to skills, I can see bonuses to physical skills but mental skills are lost as mental abilities.
It's really up to you/the GM.
The fluff for the skills could be easily explained: the vampire has subtle, constant, telepathic information gathering combined with keen senses (picking up heartbeats and pulses, smelling blood and pheremones, and so on) generating bonuses to perception and stealth also work in concert to generate bonuses to sense motive. The bluff comes from the hypnotic tenor of the body's voice.
Or really whatever. But ultimately, it's up to you/the GM. (Also, I just realized that perception would technically be a mental skill. Weird.)
All in all a vampire seams to be a very good target for magic jar.
Agreed - it's a solid choice. Right up until the vampire gets free, then this whole thing just comes back to bite you! :D
(Pun entirely intended. Also, it heavily depends on the game and how you deal with things to determine if a vampire will get out or not. :D)
The way I read spirit jar it just seamed to keep souls where the were then the spell wears off. I am not sure you would get sucked into an empty one. If you did the vamps body would then have no soul since the jars hold on to its soul. I think you are right on the whole distance thing.
I can see that, but, "If his spell expires while he is within a Spirit jar, his soul and those in the other jars are trapped." seems pretty definitive. Similarly, "Should a spirit within a Spirit jar no longer have a body or be outside its jar when its magic jar spell ends, it returns to one of the empty Spirit jars if one is in range, or dies if one is not." makes me think that it's basically, "get back in your body before time runs out or else" type of deal.
Glad I could help!
Did not connect what happens to a spirit with getting trapped. It gets sucked back if it's spell ends. That means that you should as well. To me Spirit just means some one whose original body died.
I am the GM.
I guess HP does not change, now I have answer if I want to or not.
Gotcha. I can see that. I really think it applies to the caster as well, since otherwise the same affects apply, and you are, basically, just a spirit while within the jars.
And, as a fellow GM, I heartily suggest making it work exactly the way you want it to.
If you want a more "complex" option, the hp are partially (or, in the case of undead, entirely) dependent upon the inhabitant: your levels drive the hp (and in this case, your charisma modifier).
It's a little more complicated that way than just keeping the current hp - you have to figure about stat-boosting items and similar corner cases, such as spells affecting the victim (do they affect the new person or remain on the old) - but it's all very much so up to you, as GM!
(Though the rules just keep them as they were when you first inhabited the body.)
:)