Discrepancy with Improved unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Natural Attacks


Rules Questions


While I am aware that Improved Unarmed Strike is a prerequisite for Improved Grapple, I've noticed that creatures don't follow this. The ONLY 2 monsters in the PRD that have IG and Natural attacks do NOT have IUS.

beastiary 3 (2011):
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/siyokoy.html#_siyokoy
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/asura.html#_asura,-upasunda

Since rule changes always follow the most recently published source (for example, things like Universal Monster rules and changes to Brass Knuckles with Monk Unarmed Strikes), would that apply in this situation?

Does this represent a de facto allowance for creatures with natural attacks to ignore IUS as a prerequisite for feats (or at least, for Improved Grapple)? Would this extend to animal companions and eidolons?

For reference, I did find a few other creatures in SRD (not an official Pathfinder/Paizo document) that have Improved Grapple, but all were adventure paths/modules/PFS scenarios (which are well known to invent rules when they choose) or were non-Paizo. Some (like the Rorkoun in Kingmaker) do not have IUS with IG, but some do (like the Raelis Azata in Shattered Star) do have both IUS and IG.


Short answer: Monsters cheat.

Long answer: Monster cheat. They do not have to follow the rules regarding prerequisites or anything else. A GM can add an ability functionally equivalent to Improved Grapple to a monster and just call it "Grabhands (Ex)". They can also make it only work on dwarves. This is all legitimate. Given that, it's much simpler to just give the monster the feat.

However, your animal companion/familiar/eidolon/poker buddy still cannot take Improved Grapple without the prerequisites. Never look to the Bestiary entries for rules on what is or is not legal for PCs or their class features.


The Upasunda has IG as a bonus feat (which means prerequisites are ignored), so that wouldn't count for the argument.

Leaving only the Siyokoy.. Since that creature has grab already, IG doesn't provide much of an improvement (only a +2 bonus on top of the +4 bonus it would normally get). I'm guessing the author of the monster feels similarly to me; that the grab ability should function as the prerequisite for the grapple feats (although personally I would have it function as IG in terms of qualifying for Greater Grapple, rather than giving the creature both grab and IG).


Monsters have to follow the same rules barring a rules exception. It is most likely a typo, and if fixed either an exception would be granted or IUS would be granted as a bonus feat. Of course they could just remove improved grapple, but that is the least likely answer.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Monsters with Natural Weapons don't have Unarmed Strikes, and I'd imagine adding it would confuse that issue.

But in the rules, they could have given it IUS as a level feat and then given it Improved Grapple as a Bonus feat. That solves the problem. Or the more clean is to just give the feat and not worry about it.


There is no reason why they can't have unarmed strikes if they are humanoid in shape. The can make fist. They have elbows, and knees also, but I do think there is no need for IUS other than to stay within the rules.

Grand Lodge

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All creatures, with a physical body, can make unarmed strikes.

Most don't.

Having natural attack does not remove this ability, and neither does a non-humanoid form.


blahpers wrote:

Short answer: Monsters cheat.

Long answer: Monster cheat. They do not have to follow the rules regarding prerequisites or anything else. A GM can add an ability functionally equivalent to Improved Grapple to a monster and just call it "Grabhands (Ex)". They can also make it only work on dwarves. This is all legitimate. Given that, it's much simpler to just give the monster the feat.

However, your animal companion/familiar/eidolon/poker buddy still cannot take Improved Grapple without the prerequisites. Never look to the Bestiary entries for rules on what is or is not legal for PCs or their class features.

Longer answer: everyone plays by the same rules, but those rules include the ability to add clauses, sometimes unwritten, that basically say "you can cheat".

Essentially, if you think of racial hit dice like a class level, then compare it to the variety of classes like ranger that have bonus feats that skip prerequisites. This could be treated like "this creature is treated as having improved unarmed strike for the purposes of qualifying for feats". Only, since you never see such creature directly leveling from childhood (if applicable) to adulthood, and this leveling is unwritten, then you never see these clauses.

That BS is how I get myself to sleep at night, at least.

Sczarni

Bonus feats are the exception to the rule.

Otherwise Zombies wouldn't have Toughness, and Skeletons wouldn't have Improved Initiative, since the general rule is that mindless creatures can't take feats.


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I think when monsters cheat its supposed to be explicit. Like

Apocafist (ex) apocalypso zombies have meaty fists and can have feats that require improved unarmed combat.

So the cheating is usually labled openly. If it isn't just mentally write the perission in invisible mental ink and move on.


wraithstrike wrote:

Monsters have to follow the same rules barring a rules exception. It is most likely a typo, and if fixed either an exception would be granted or IUS would be granted as a bonus feat. Of course they could just remove improved grapple, but that is the least likely answer.

When the rules include "the GM has free rein to make up brand new abilities and add them to a monster", having to follow the rules is something of a formality. If I want my horror-touched kobolds to have improved grapple due to them sprouting small support tentacles all over their bodies, then RAW I can and will write it in the stat block and give not a care for whether it meets the prerequisites (and adjust the CR if necessary).


blahpers wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Monsters have to follow the same rules barring a rules exception. It is most likely a typo, and if fixed either an exception would be granted or IUS would be granted as a bonus feat. Of course they could just remove improved grapple, but that is the least likely answer.

When the rules include "the GM has free rein to make up brand new abilities and add them to a monster", having to follow the rules is something of a formality. If I want my horror-touched kobolds to have improved grapple due to them sprouting small support tentacles all over their bodies, then RAW I can and will write it in the stat block and give not a care for whether it meets the prerequisites (and adjust the CR if necessary).

Of course any GM can ignore any rule. <---common knowledge

I was talking about the official rule.
Was there any purpose in telling me something that everyone on the board already knows? O.o


Specifically, only the Siyokoy is "breaking" the rules since the Upasunda has Improved Grapple as a bonus feat.

The simple solution for the Siyokoy is to give it IUS or Improved Grapple as a bonus feat.

In any case it doesn't matter because, as the others have stated, monsters can "break" the rules (though they shouldn't if at all possible).

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