Does a bard need many ranks in perform?


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It appears to me that the only bardic performance that is based on ranks in performance skills is the fascinate and counter-song. Do you need ANY ranks for inspire courage and the like? or is one good enough?


You want to rank up perform for Versatile Performance. Otherwise it isn't really necessary.


Masterpieces have a requirement for a performance* and versatile performance are all about replacing your other skill checks with your charisma based perform skill(3 for 1!). Beyond that I don't think they really need to stack performance at all.

*Pageant of the peacock takes 4 for example, but actually doesn't use the performance check. That's usually how they work.


I don't think you need even one rank. Would be pretty amusing to have a drunken pirate or something inspiring his allies with off-key crooning.


Xavier319 wrote:
It appears to me that the only bardic performance that is based on ranks in performance skills is the fascinate and counter-song. Do you need ANY ranks for inspire courage and the like? or is one good enough?

You don't need any, no, especially if your archetype trades out Versatile Performance.

This makes the bard very easy to reflavor into something not dorky.


Very few usages of "Bardic Performance" depend on the outcome of the roll,
and in fact you can make Perform checks "Untrained",
so you don't need ranks if you don't care about the outcome of the usages that do depend on the numeric result of the check.
You are still using the Performance skill and technically need to make the roll, but the outcome doesn't matter mechanically,
it's akin to having your character state they sing a lullaby every night around the fire for flavor purposes,
the roll may just be hand-waved if nobody cares how "good" a performance is,
it is just being done for the sake of doing it (+Su effect in this case), not for overcoming/establishing a DC.


Zhayne wrote:
This makes the bard very easy to reflavor into something not dorky.

I think they prefer the term Spoony.

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Quandary wrote:

Very few usages of "Bardic Performance" depend on the outcome of the roll,

and in fact you can make Perform checks "Untrained",
so you don't need ranks if you don't care about the outcome of the usages that do depend on the numeric result of the check.
You are still using the Performance skill and technically need to make the roll, but the outcome doesn't matter mechanically,
it's akin to having your character state they sing a lullaby every night around the fire for flavor purposes,
the roll may just be hand-waved if nobody cares how "good" a performance is,
it is just being done for the sake of doing it (+Su effect in this case), not for overcoming/establishing a DC.

According to the creative director, you don't make a Perform check unless you use one of the performances that specifically mention it:

James Jacobs wrote:

Okay; I've been thinking this over and rephrased myself better on a similar thread... but basically, here's the trick.

Bardic performance does NOT require you to use a Perform skill that you have ranks in. It doesn't even need a Perform skill at all. Not only is Perform usable untrained, but the bardic performance ability does not require you to make Perform checks of any kind except for a few specific TYPES of bardic performance, such as countersong or distraction.

This means that when you inspire courage, you're not necessarily doing so by playing the flute or banging drums. It's more likely that you're singing or bragging or taunting or dancing or otherwise just showboating to raise your allies' morale. If you WANT to say that your bardic performance is from a particularly rousing violin solo, that's fine... but once it's started you don't have to keep playing the violin if you want to put the violin down and fight or spellcast or whatever because the actual Perform (strings) skill doesn't ever enter the picture.

Liberty's Edge

Zhayne wrote:
Xavier319 wrote:
It appears to me that the only bardic performance that is based on ranks in performance skills is the fascinate and counter-song. Do you need ANY ranks for inspire courage and the like? or is one good enough?

You don't need any, no, especially if your archetype trades out Versatile Performance.

This makes the bard very easy to reflavor into something not dorky.

It's pretty easy to do that even with Performance. Stirring speeches (Oratory) used to inspire are rarely dorky, for example. Nor is mocking your opponent as you fight ala Spider Man or witty swashbucklers the world over (Comedy). Nor singing an ancient war chant of your people for a barbaric skald (Sing). Or using a dance-based fighting style ala capoeira or a whirling dervish kinda dance (Dance, and doesn't require the archetype either). Heck, even stepping up and suddenly acting like an inspiring commander to give inspiration to the troops isn't particularly silly (Act, and that ones tricky). War-drummers and pipers are also very definitely real things, and not silly at all (Percussion and Wind).

The basic concept of "I perform and inspire people." is only silly if you let it be.


Totally agree with you Deadmanwalking....what you described is very flavorful and to my point of view reflects my interpretation of the bardic performance.

Honestly, until before I saw James Jacob's interpretation/rule (I don't know if it was an actual rule precision or just his interpretation)...I've always assumed that you actually used the perform skill when doing bardic performance based on:

CRB (page 35):Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the
Perform skill
to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired.

So my "interpretation" was that the general rule was that each bardic performance use the perform skill of your choice and need no roll to succeed...and the specific rule was that for some specific bardic performances you actually roll a perform skill. Note that the ones that do require a roll, do so because the performance roll replace a saving throw...anything else does not require a roll at all from the bard.

But based on James Jacob's comment, it would appear that none is required but for the specific....shame....

as a side note: in 3.5, the bard was required to have the perform skill and a fixed amount of ranks in the perform skill of each individual performance to be able to use it. That made more sense to me flavorwise....

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Cuttler wrote:

But based on James Jacob's comment, it would appear that none is required but for the specific....shame....

as a side note: in 3.5, the bard was required to have the perform skill and a fixed amount of ranks in the perform skill of each individual performance to be able to use it. That made more sense to me flavorwise....

I agree, it made more sense flavorwise. I guess the reason they changed it was removing a "skill point tax". In other words, no base class should be required to take ranks in a skill to be able to use its class features.

Liberty's Edge

@Cuttler: Versatile Performance still ensures that the vast majority of Bards (at least ones flavored as such) are gonna have several Performances maxed out, and even for those without it, Masterpieces provide some incentive to grab at least some ranks. That's good enough for me.

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