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So stop makin' 'em.
Cuz it's rude.
And hurts real peoples' feelings.
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I second this. I think everything they do is pretty good and what I don't like I change in my game. I don't play pathfinder Society but I get that the rules need to be different. theres no reason to have all the thread hate.
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Wasn't Manimal a TV show in the 80's? I remember liking that show.
Good memory! Here's the Wikipedia entry for anyone interested: Manimal.
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I second this. I think everything they do is pretty good and what I don't like I change in my game. I don't play pathfinder Society but I get that the rules need to be different. theres no reason to have all the thread hate.
Exactly! I get that some people like to play by the exact rules, and that some people must play by the exact rules, ie PFS, but that's no reason to claim that Paizo "hates" something just because they "nerf" something you like.
I like to believe that every rule change that Paizo enacts is done with balance and fun in mind, not because of some arbitrary dislike of this class or that feat. Is this belief 100% true? Likely not, but it's close enough that I see no reason to go off the rails when something changes for what I may perceive as the worse.
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Paizo loves you all. They just really HATE me. They let me stay so it's not as obvious.
Well you are a death squad...
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I quite agree, I think the rules developers are doing their best to keep some game balance int tact, and to keep the game fun.
Here is my favorite part of the core rule book,
"The Most Important Rule:
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt."
Page 9 of the core rule book.
I think people forget this little passage in the core rule book. For example, I think the Developers have mentioned in the FAQ, that Spell Like abilities could be used to qualify for prestige classes...ie Mystic theurge etc.....
In your home game you (GM) get to decide what you want in your game and what you don't. For Example, wether you want to apply this clarification the developers made to your home game or not.
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What irks me is that the phrase is so loaded. Saying "Paizo hates X" or even asking "Does Paizo hate X?" is similar to media outlet headlines that use the exact same annoying tactic; frex, reporting "Does the President hate Christmas?" when the White House chooses a card that says "Happy Holidays."
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Another reason why I stick with disorganized play. I don't need the headache. If Paizo changes something in the rules that I don't agree with, then I can ignore it.
"Hate" is also getting thrown around waaaaay to often on the interwebz. If you disagree with something/someone, you're a "hater." If a change is found to be a disadvantage to a particular class/character type, then obviously it was done out of hate. Sheesh. How about a sense of scale and a little less drama, people?
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You are probably right TOZ
As ShadowBorn said, "If Paizo changes something in the rules that I don't agree with, then I can ignore it"
Unlike players of World of Warcraft (which I play from time to time, and used to play 8 hrs a day a few years ago) you are stuck with whatever update the Blizzard Devs. come up with.
Shrugs, whatever people might say, or belly ache about, Paizo is much more responsive to its customers then many companies.
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Even black magic-love potion-enemy killing-relationship problem solving specialists?
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Hate doesn't exist at Paizo.
I don't believe you.
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Hate doesn't exist at Paizo.I don't believe you.
Why would a T-Rex lie?
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Why would a T-Rex lie?Hate doesn't exist at Paizo.I don't believe you.
Same reasons anyone else would.
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There's not enough time to hate when you're having too much fun doing things you love. Hate doesn't exist at Paizo. We love you all!!!
just don't say "we love you THIS much!" Its has less meaning with tiny t rex arms.
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Same reasons anyone else would.Why would a T-Rex lie?Hate doesn't exist at Paizo.I don't believe you.
for a Klondike bar?
Creative Director
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There's not enough time to hate when you're having too much fun doing things you love. Hate doesn't exist at Paizo. We love you all!!!just don't say "we love you THIS much!" Its has less meaning with tiny t rex arms.
Yay! Thank you for the kind words! I love my arms, and YOU, too!
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I notice that no one has posted in this thread for 6 hours.
Clearly James has eaten all the haters. Because after all, there's more one way to "love" someone. ;-)
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Bless your heart!Hate doesn't exist at Paizo.I don't believe you.
Being from the South this makes me laugh.
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Being from the South this makes me laugh.
Just don't translate it for them.
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I think the real lesson to learn (and I speak for myself largely as much as anyone else) is don't take game design decisions by the team personally.
When you feel the nerdrage build, repeat several times these words: "Pretendy funtime games."
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Creative Director
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There's not enough time to hate when you're having too much fun doing things you love. Hate doesn't exist at Paizo. We love you all!!!Not even as a form of sin magic from ancient Thassilon?
Nope! Hate isn't one of the seven deadly sins, after all.
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Creative Director
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So then why are there so many NPCs out to get us? ;)
Or are they just trying to kill our PCs with love? Sharp, pointy, stabby love ...
Those NPCs aren't Paizos. Paizo would NEVER try to kill your PCs. Those NPCs though? Some of them are bad eggs.
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Nope! Hate isn't one of the seven deadly sins, after all.
Well, I think hate's covered under "wrath," technically. ;)
Paizo would NEVER try to kill your PCs.
But they do sell ideas to the nefarious beings known as "GMs" so that THEY can try to kill your PCs. Surely they're accessories at best?
(Or is that the game accessories themselves enable the PCs to be murdered....?)
Customer Service Dire Care Bear Manager
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I heard an interesting bit of parenting advice, and I think its relevant here.
When talking to toddlers, they really haven't learned what "Do not" means. So you say "Don't sit on the cat," and they hear " sit on the cat!" "Don't run in the street!!" becomes " Run in the street!!" So to help them understand what you need them to do, you have to rephrase it as a positive instead of a negative.
"Don't sit on the cat," becomes "We pet our cat friends gently."*
"Don't run in the street." becomes "We stay on the sidewalk."*
"Don't eat cat food," becomes "Cat food stays in the cat dish."*
Sometimes its harder than others "Don't eat food off the floor." You can't say "We eat food from our plates." because there are a ton of exceptions to that rule and consistency is key. So after thinking about it, I realized, "Food on the floor goes in the trash."
So now for the relevant part. After doing the above changes to my toddler interactions for a month, I've really become aware of *other* areas where speaking in positives is a million times more likely to see results than speaking in negatives. Not because someone won't understand "don't", "can't", "shouldn't", etc, but because it helps makes the conversation positive, constructive and enjoyable rather than off-putting. People rarely like to be told what they cannot or should not do, but in my experience, most people do like to know what they can help with.
As far as messageboards, go. When you're scrolling through looking for threads to read, seeing " XX Hates YY" or "XX is Broken" not only sets a negative tone for that thread but for anyone browsing the boards. I would much rather see "Question about XX", or "Thoughts on YY?"
Here is my favorite part of the core rule book,
"The Most Important Rule:
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt."Page 9 of the core rule book.
Mine too, and I often end up quoting it :)
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Being from the South this makes me laugh.Just don't translate it for them.
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I've hidden the Pathfinder RPG General subforum. It has become the toilet sink of the place. I don't really mind - if I want to actually read some advice or dig people's heads for ideas, the Advice, Rules Q and Suggs/Homebrew subfora are usually enjoyable (unless it's a "Help me make my Rogue fail less at existing" thread). And Golarion-related and product-related fora are usually an enjoyable read. But PF General? Pure madness.
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I heard an interesting bit of parenting advice, and I think its relevant here.
When talking to toddlers, they really haven't learned what "Do not" means. So you say "Don't sit on the cat," and they hear " sit on the cat!" "Don't run in the street!!" becomes " Run in the street!!" So to help them understand what you need them to do, you have to rephrase it as a positive instead of a negative.
"Don't sit on the cat," becomes "We pet our cat friends gently."*
"Don't run in the street." becomes "We stay on the sidewalk."*
"Don't eat cat food," becomes "Cat food stays in the cat dish."*Sometimes its harder than others "Don't eat food off the floor." You can't say "We eat food from our plates." because there are a ton of exceptions to that rule and consistency is key. So after thinking about it, I realized, "Food on the floor goes in the trash."
So now for the relevant part. After doing the above changes to my toddler interactions for a month, I've really become aware of *other* areas where speaking in positives is a million times more likely to see results than speaking in negatives. Not because someone won't understand "don't", "can't", "shouldn't", etc, but because it helps makes the conversation positive, constructive and enjoyable rather than off-putting. People rarely like to be told what they cannot or should not do, but in my experience, most people do like to know what they can help with.
As far as messageboards, go. When you're scrolling through looking for threads to read, seeing " XX Hates YY" or "XX is Broken" not only sets a negative tone for that thread but for anyone browsing the boards. I would much rather see "Question about XX", or "Thoughts on YY?"
The most important rule: Jerks post somewhere else.
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The most important rule: Jerks post somewhere else.I heard an interesting bit of parenting advice, and I think its relevant here.
When talking to toddlers, they really haven't learned what "Do not" means. So you say "Don't sit on the cat," and they hear " sit on the cat!" "Don't run in the street!!" becomes " Run in the street!!" So to help them understand what you need them to do, you have to rephrase it as a positive instead of a negative.
"Don't sit on the cat," becomes "We pet our cat friends gently."*
"Don't run in the street." becomes "We stay on the sidewalk."*
"Don't eat cat food," becomes "Cat food stays in the cat dish."*Sometimes its harder than others "Don't eat food off the floor." You can't say "We eat food from our plates." because there are a ton of exceptions to that rule and consistency is key. So after thinking about it, I realized, "Food on the floor goes in the trash."
So now for the relevant part. After doing the above changes to my toddler interactions for a month, I've really become aware of *other* areas where speaking in positives is a million times more likely to see results than speaking in negatives. Not because someone won't understand "don't", "can't", "shouldn't", etc, but because it helps makes the conversation positive, constructive and enjoyable rather than off-putting. People rarely like to be told what they cannot or should not do, but in my experience, most people do like to know what they can help with.
As far as messageboards, go. When you're scrolling through looking for threads to read, seeing " XX Hates YY" or "XX is Broken" not only sets a negative tone for that thread but for anyone browsing the boards. I would much rather see "Question about XX", or "Thoughts on YY?"
Perhaps, "When we post to the message board, we say things nicely."
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Design Manager
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I dislike the "Paizo Hates" threads specifically because of the fact that they create an atmosphere of negativity that often overwhelms what may be a perfectly valid point.
If the point you're trying to get across is "Paizo's latest batch of eratta and most recent releases seem to represent a skewed perception of the value of a specific subset of abilities" than saying "Paizo hates martials" is not going to get your point across or engender the kind of conversation that is actually productive. You'll end up with people on the defensive ("Paizo is full of great people who work really hard!)", people coming to wallow in the rampant negativity ("Yes, they hate martials, and they hate you for liking them. Now feed on that hatred and go strong my trollish hords, for our time draws near!"), and the voices trying to discuss the actual point, which soon get lost in the wash since they inevitably become associated with one side or the other of the groups who are arguing the ambient hate levels at the Paizo facilities instead of discussing the actual issue that prompted the post.
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I hate both "Paizo Hates" threads and "Paizo loves" threads because it suggests that Paizo has emotions and/or is a human(oid?). It isn't. It has creature type Construct (Swarm subtype), just like every other collection of legal documents and sales assets.
I also don't particularly like "Jason Bulhman Hates__" threads, for the same reasons Ssalarn gave.
I hope if I ever write a rules book people aren't afraid of posting "WPharolin hates X" threads for fear that I'll take everything they say personally. That's called criticism, and be it scathing or constructive, it's useful. With exception to the "ZOMG they must be retarded" I think it's silly to say that what these people are expressing is anything other than exaggerated dislike. Maybe I'm running solo in this mindset but I don't see criticism as a personal attack and welcome and encourage any and all feedback people have of the work I do, whether good or bad.
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I hope if I ever write a rules book people aren't afraid of posting "WPharolin hates X" threads for fear that I'll take everything they say personally. That's called criticism, and be it scathing or constructive, it's useful. With exception to the "ZOMG they must be retarded" I think it's silly to say that what these people are expressing is anything other than exaggerated dislike. Maybe I'm running solo in this mindset but I don't see criticism as a personal attack and welcome and encourage any and all feedback people have of the work I do, whether good or bad.
That'so easy to say until you publish something.
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I hope if I ever write a rules book people aren't afraid of posting "WPharolin hates X" threads for fear that I'll take everything they say personally. That's called criticism, and be it scathing or constructive, it's useful. With exception to the "ZOMG they must be retarded" I think it's silly to say that what these people are expressing is anything other than exaggerated dislike. Maybe I'm running solo in this mindset but I don't see criticism as a personal attack and welcome and encourage any and all feedback people have of the work I do, whether good or bad.
Well, there's posting criticism and there's posting criticism like a jackass. There's a difference.
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That'so easy to say until you publish something.
Well, there's posting criticism and there's posting criticism like a jackass. There's a difference.
I think these two quotes encapsulate a large portion of the problem in my eyes. There are hosts of people that are always willing to come down like a mighty hammer and say that the devs did it wrong, that the builds are terrible and should have been done like so, and so on. And usually in the least civilized rudest way that you can speak to other people. Because internet, usually.
I often wonder when I read these comments where the magnificent game is that these brilliant people are putting out, this masterpiece of style and function that has no typos, no mistakes, no "traps", and so forth. One would think that there would be dozens of them floating around, and yet..
Much like with anything, it is easier to sit on the sidelines and tell the folks doing the task (a game company, a sports team, a computer firm, whatever) how much they suck and cannot do it the RIGHT way (read, that person's opinion of what should be done).
Criticism can be helpful. Jumping around screaming that the sky is falling because you don't like a ruling or a build or whatever isn't helpful, it's standard everyday internet incivility.
That'so easy to say until you publish something.Well, there's posting criticism and there's posting criticism like a jackass. There's a difference.I think these two quotes encapsulate a large portion of the problem in my eyes. There are hosts of people that are always willing to come down like a mighty hammer and say that the devs did it wrong, that the builds are terrible and should have been done like so, and so on. And usually in the least civilized rudest way that you can speak to other people. Because internet, usually.
I often wonder when I read these comments where the magnificent game is that these brilliant people are putting out, this masterpiece of style and function that has no typos, no mistakes, no "traps", and so forth. One would think that there would be dozens of them floating around, and yet..
Much like with anything, it is easier to sit on the sidelines and tell the folks doing the task (a game company, a sports team, a computer firm, whatever) how much they suck and cannot do it the RIGHT way (read, that person's opinion of what should be done).
Criticism can be helpful. Jumping around screaming that the sky is falling because you don't like a ruling or a build or whatever isn't helpful, it's standard everyday internet incivility.
You have too much going on here and it makes it difficult to address your individual points. I agree people shouldn't be jerks, but I disagree that I can't offer feedback or criticism unless I create similar products myself.
You have too much going on here and it makes it difficult to address your individual points. I agree people shouldn't be jerks, but I disagree that I can't offer feedback or criticism unless I create similar products myself.
Sorry about that, I was cooking and running back and forth when I wrote it.
As for writing something, that of course isn't necessary. I was being a bit snarky that there are a lot of folks that tell us how dumb the designers and company are or how they are doing it wrong and perhaps they should step up and show how to do it better.