help with a mystic theurge Necromancer

[Elgamor]

my group has switched from 3.5 to pathfinder. im trying to recreate my 3.5 mystic theurge build that focused on commanding undead.

ok so heres the problem. in pathfinder the command undead feat has a limit that I did not have in 3.5 so heres the feat in question. I will "" the problematic part.

Command Undead
Using foul powers of necromancy, you can command
undead creatures, making them into your servants.
Prerequisites: Channel negative energy class feature.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can use one of your
uses of channel negative energy to enslave undead within 30
feet. Undead receive a Will save to negate the effect. The DC
for this Will save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your
Charisma modifier. Undead that fail their saves fall under
your control, obeying your commands to the best of their
ability, as if under the effects of control undead. Intelligent
undead receive a new saving throw each day to resist your
command. """You can control any number of undead, so long
as their total Hit Dice do not exceed your cleric level.""" If you
use channel energy in this way, it has no other effect (it does
not heal or harm nearby creatures). If an undead creature
is under the control of another creature, you must make an
opposed Charisma check whenever your orders conflict.

so as you can see if I take my old theurge progression of wiz3-clr3-MT10
I end up with around 200HD worth of undead as my command limit but in PF I cant have any undead over 3HD.... is there anyway around this in pathfinder with out house ruling?

my DM is limited in his capacity to control PCs in game so he tends to prefer simple easily referenced material. so im trying to limit myself to non third party sources. he is also trying to use the PF software to help him run the game, hero forge or something like that, so that's another limiting factor I am trying to stay within. ill get the actual name of the programs here soon. and by stay within I mean if its not in that program I intend to avoid it.

ill post more later, thanks in advance for any help. if you have questions please ask as even your questions can help me find my answer.

[Te'Shen]

Use the Command Undead (Wizard 2) spell rather than depend on rebuke. Make due with Desecrate (Cleric 2) + (Lesser) Animate Dead (Cleric 2/3).

Do heighten shenanigans work in Pathfinder Society? If so, find some way to lower the amount of levels of one or the other before you hop into mystic theurge. If that doesn't work, I hear some races use their spell-likes as a hack to get in early. Delayed casting hurts too much. Having access to higher level spells will make you a better necromancer than having more and varied lower level spells.

[Elgamor]

@te'shen, no the heighten tricks are not allowed. as I said my DM is limited in his abilities so if I make him think too hard he will not allow it. yes by the looks of it the command undead spells are going to have to be utilized. however early entry methods will only further limit my undead HD capacity due to the way that the PF command undead feat is worded.

I do not wish to be game breaking powerful, quite the opposite actually that's one of the reasons Im going the theurge route. I tend to creatively power game and out shine most of the rest of the party, im trying to not do that this time but still find a way to enjoy myself.

one of the ideas im toying with using the large numbers of undead for is as crew for a ship we intend to end up with. a skeleton crew, get it? cheaper than regular crew, easier to recruit, and potentially more useful. I can still command large numbers to crew with as is, I was just hoping to have a few of them above 3HD before level 16. (the end of MT progress) and having their HD max out at only 8 by level 20 just seems silly.

[Te'Shen]

Ok. I don't get it. How would having a higher caster level for one side and access to higher level spells hurt.

I was also under the impression the undead created from animate dead and those commanded by command undead were separate. Am I wrong?

[Elgamor]

Te'Shen wrote:

Ok. I don't get it. How would having a higher caster level for one side and access to higher level spells hurt.

I was also under the impression the undead created from animate dead and those commanded by command undead were separate. Am I wrong?

its not the higher caster lv or higher lv spells that is the problem. its the HD limit on the undead. by using an early entry one of my base classes will end up being lower and there by lowering the HD cap of half my undead.

[Gregory Connolly]

I think that you might want to rebuild the character as a Cleric type necromancer with the Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) feat chain. It will allow you to get a familiar as a cleric, pick up your choice of mid to high level wizard necromancy spells like Magic Jar, and still have full levels for using channel to command undead.

[Dragonchess Player]

Since you just switched, I'd ask the GM if you could convert the 3.5 True Necromancer prestige class (from Libris Mortis) to Pathfinder. Personally, I'd change the prerequisites to:

Alignment: Any nongood
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 5, Knowledge (Religion) 5
Feats: Skeleton Summoner (since there are no summon undead spells in Pathfinder), Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Spells: Able to cast command undead as an arcane spell and desecrate as a divine spell
Special: Able to channel negative energy, must have selected the Death domain

I'd also make it a 10-level prestige class (since you can also take mystic theurge levels for spells as a 16th level cleric and 16th level wizard as a cleric 3/wizard 3/true necromancer 10/mystic theurge 4):
HD: 1d6
Skills: 2 + Int mod; Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int)

BAB: +1/2 levels
Good Save: Will
Poor Saves: Fort, Ref

1st - Channel Energy (true necromancer levels stack with cleric levels to determine the effect of Channel Energy), +1 level of arcane spellcasting
2nd- Command Undead (as bonus feat), +1 level of divine spellcasting
3rd- +1 level of arcane spellcasting/+1 level of divine spellcasting
4th- Thanatopic Spell (as bonus feat), +1 level of arcane spellcasting/+1 level of divine spellcasting
5th- Create Undead (CL = character level) 1/day, +1 level of arcane spellcasting/+1 level of divine spellcasting
6th- Undead Master (as bonus feat), +1 level of arcane spellcasting/+1 level of divine spellcasting
7th- +1 level of arcane spellcasting/+1 level of divine spellcasting
8th- Ectoplasmic Spell (as bonus feat), +1 level of arcane spellcasting/+1 level of divine spellcasting
9th- +1 level of arcane spellcasting/+1 level of divine spellcasting
10th- Create Greater Undead (CL = character level) 1/day, +1 level of arcane spellcasting/+1 level of divine spellcasting

[The black raven]

There is an excellent guide on necromancy that is likely listed in the Guide to the guides sticky thread in Advice. It really helps understanding the different facets of creating and controlling undead and gives precious advice.

[Elgamor]

thanks to the three of you! that's the kind of ideas I was looking for!

@black raven, thanks I tried looking for that but I was looking for "handbooks" like they had in WOTC forums. no wonder I did not find them.

[The black raven]

Elgamor wrote:

thanks to the three of you! that's the kind of ideas I was looking for!

@black raven, thanks I tried looking for that but I was looking for "handbooks" like they had in WOTC forums. no wonder I did not find them.

The thread is here