Bravo v4 - base class


Homebrew and House Rules

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This is posted in my Dropbox, as didn't want to open an account for Google Docs. Hope it doesn't present any downloading problems.

Anyhow, this is a pet project I started two years ago, hence version 4. It incorporates feedback I received online from v3, and some from not-online. The short version is that the bravo is a different take on the swashbuckler archetype that does not require dexterity, but can still be used to make a movie swashbuckler. Also, it has a fancy layout.

Dropbox document

Verdant Wheel

nice work. Bravo is at once flexible and distinct, both in concept and mechanics. i would totally play this class.

i really like the mechanics for Engaging Feint. it'd maybe be cool to see it come online earlier (than 7th) and maybe even set a baseline precedent for more interactivity between feinted foes and exploitative measures. just an idea, though definitely not needed.


rainzax wrote:

nice work. Bravo is at once flexible and distinct, both in concept and mechanics. i would totally play this class.

i really like the mechanics for Engaging Feint. it'd maybe be cool to see it come online earlier (than 7th) and maybe even set a baseline precedent for more interactivity between feinted foes and exploitative measures. just an idea, though definitely not needed.

I get that, I think its kind of late as well. Mostly I needed a 7th level class feature as I had scrapped the previous two that filled the position. Its actually the last thing I came up with. The "timing" will be at the top of my list of considerations.

Sovereign Court

First, I really like this. I have a soft spot for lightly armored warriors and this seems to be a decent implementation. I too like Engaging Feint, it allows you to force an enemy to engage with you so that all your AoO-fishing can stay active.

That said, I have some nitpicks;

* Bravo Weapons: I found this a bit confusing. Until I read the Swashbuckler feat I was under the impression that this class was anti-2WF.

* Elan->Parry: do you use this ability after the opponent revealed his to-hit result, or before?

* Elan pool: why did you choose the Ki/Rage/Performance mechanic instead of the Grit mechanic (which refreshes when doing Good Things)?

* Improved Compound Attack: you wrote "brave" instead of "bravo".

* Deadly Strike: can this be combined with feats/abilities/items that enhance critical threatting/multiplying? Most of those say that you can't combine them.

Also, Engaging Feint made me wonder. Should this class have access to the Disruptive/Spellbreaker feats for harassing casters, much like the bardic Arcane Duelist archetype?

Verdant Wheel

to brainstorm on the possibilities of expanding Engaging Feint:

*if the ability was granted earlier, maybe the ability to do an 'area feint' could fill your 7-slot. you could use Dazzling Display as a model. or it could start at a limited radius (starting with all adjacent?) which grows over class levels.

*if you adopted the Grit mechanic per Ascalaphus's suggestion, an idea for recounting points could be when a feinted foe draws a successful AoO.

*similar to how rogue has strike talents, which trigger via sneak attack, there could be a line of exploitative abilities that trigger against feinted foes. either as menu options or as scheduled class features.

*i really like the idea that instead of forcing a foe to remain 'engaged' (a de facto compulsion effect - which, is not a terrible idea), that they are merely encouraged not to 'disengage' on pain of mechanical advantage. i'd like to see this concept expanded upon.

cheers


Ascalaphus wrote:


* Bravo Weapons: I found this a bit confusing. Until I read the Swashbuckler feat I was under the impression that this class was anti-2WF.

* Elan->Parry: do you use this ability after the opponent revealed his to-hit result, or before?

* Elan pool: why did you choose the Ki/Rage/Performance mechanic instead of the Grit mechanic (which refreshes when doing Good Things)?

* Improved Compound Attack: you wrote "brave" instead of "bravo".

* Deadly Strike: can this be combined with feats/abilities/items that enhance critical threatting/multiplying? Most of those say that you can't combine them.

Also, Engaging Feint made me wonder. Should this class have access to the Disruptive/Spellbreaker feats for harassing casters, much like the bardic Arcane Duelist archetype?

-It IS meant to be specifically single weapon, also to be specifically a single one-handed weapon. The feats came along late in the process and are not very important, I think. That particular feat is there for the historical duelist who did use a small shield. If it mucks things up too much I can just remove it.

-The parry was something I thought was thematically important to include, as I took two quarters of fencing in college. Your questions deals with something I had to think about for a while. It is meant to be used after the result of the attack roll has been announced. I will see about clarifying. Whenever possible I prefer to be brief, but clarity must come first.

-Grit vs Ki was something I went back and forth on. Ultimately it came down to have a place for charisma and intelligence, but not requiring either one. A bravo who decides to not boost charisma can still use armor and will still gain points to spend. A bravo who decides to not boost intelligence will still be able to use fighting styles. The ones who DO boost those gain a slight advantage.

*Spelling, grammar, and consistency are something I fret over (my dad has a masters in english literature and education, so.. thanks dad). Its hard to catch everything. Thank you.

-I will include language to disallow other multiplier increases. What are some specific other instances that would allow an increased multiplier. I'd like to include at least one, especially if it is from the core rules.

I will take all suggestions for Engaging Feint into consideration, and they have already stirred my imagination. I started on the chore of rebuilding/expanding/moving EF this morning but scrapped my work. I need some time to decide how to best proceed, such as what class feature to cut back or remove if that becomes necessary. I think 3rd level would be a better place than 7th to introduce the idea, but want to include a way for the bravo to willing provoke AoO wit in improved AC. For now I am brainstorming without altering the main document.


rainzax wrote:

*similar to how rogue has strike talents, which trigger via sneak attack, there could be a line of exploitative abilities that trigger against feinted foes. either as menu options or as scheduled class features.

"Rogue Talents" or whatnot were an early consideration. I decided against at the time as I did not feel up to the task or creating a enough of them provide variety. More recently I have created another mobile, lightly armorer homebrew class that has a bunch of them. I call it (somewhat unoriginally) the fighter-acrobat. Yes, its a mix of exactly the two things you think.

Verdant Wheel

ok.

how about having each of your five schools grant a different exploitative measure usable against a feinted foe? for example:

fox - compulsion effect
cobra - stun effect
wolf - ?
lion - demoralize effect
hare - slow effect

i am deliberately leaving the mechanics unfleshed out. for example, whether or not there is interaction with Elan (a passive or active cost), exactly the nature of how the status effect is delivered (attack-proc effect? skill-combination? etc...), whether or not there is level-scaling (additional abilities, increased duration, etc), things like that.


Praise is great, criticism is useful. :)

Fighting Style is badly written in parts. It is not clear what the bonus is you get at the listed rolls. The "+2 to <x>, <y>, <z>" to give +2 to <x>, +2 to <y>, and +2 to <z> is too confusing in this case, since you're also referring to things not listed in that sentence.

I'm not sure about a non-magical ability that runs out like that. Rage makes some level of sense, since there's only so much anger....but I guess intense focus slides under that as well.

Seems that half the feats that use Improved Feint as a prereq also have combat expertise as one.

In Opportune Attack, you gotta capitalize Dexterity.

And Charisma needs to be capitalized too, in AC Bonus (Ex).

Technically, you should list the book the non-CRB feats came from in Bonus Feats, but eh...


Thanks for the input Cheapy. The language in Fighting Style has undergone a number of changes, and still needs work. I will have to separate that long sentence into perhaps three.

What would you recommend for the Imp Feint/Combat Expertise situation? I don't much care for CE, and have been of the opinion that someone can use a feat to get it if they choose. What do you think? In between v3 and v4 I included a way to ignore ability score prereqs for Bonus Feats, but it was cut.

Are ability scores always capitalized when referring to an ability modifier?

I will include a footnote for non-core feats.

Rainzex, your suggestion is like one that was included crudely in v1 and v2. This is all going into the notes. Thank you again.


yep, ability scores are always capitalized. Also, might be worthwhile to change some to be Bonus instead of Modifier. Bonus means modifier, minimum 0.

I'm not sure what's the best for CE. Giving it for free feels a bit unwise since they get a nice boost to hit, so they can get good AC easily with CE. It's probably best to leave it out. If they want it, they can get it. Or include it in the bonus feats.

I was really digging the class up until the level 8 ability (or whichever one was the combat maneuver as immediate action). That's a really, really cool ability, but one I feel that is not balanced in the the game right now, due to how good it is. Using Dirty Trick to blind an enemy, grapple them, bull rush them so they aren't in reach anymore...it's very powerful. Even with a once per day restriction. I'd strongly recommend nixxing that.

I'll be honest, I was highly impressed with the quality for what I read. I meant to read the rest of it, but had some crazy meetings to go to.

Opening it up again.


Engaging Feint: Is this like Come And Get Me, where it can work on any number of attacks? I really recommend against that.

Rogue Eidolon brought up an idea where Deadly Strike could instead work by increasing the mult when you roll a 20 (19-20 if you have imp crit in that weapon). This would mean more weapons could be used, rather than just scimitars and rapiers.

Sovereign Court

I think you should be more explicit about the 1-weapon thing. It took me a while to realize that you're allowed to wield two weapons, but that only the main hand would count as a bravo weapon. That's awkward.

With ki/grit, what I meant was that Ki is a daily pool that refreshes once per day, while grit is a smaller pool but there are several things you can do to refresh it (score crits, defeat foes).

The reason I go on about Elan is because for a couple of levels it seems like you really need Parry->Riposte to fish for AoOs. But that would burn through the pool very quickly. This is less an issue if you move Engaging Feint to a lower level though.

I rather like you using both Int and Cha actually. However, you do risk MADness, so maybe it's not a bad thing to move the feat to use Dex for damage into the main class to offset that?


Cheapy:
-I had thought that Surprise Maneuver was toned down by limiting it to 1/day, but you don't think so. What do you think would tone it down enough?

-Engaging Feint can work on any number of attacks. However, this is to encourage the enemy to attack the bravo. The free AoO only triggers when the enemy ignores him.

Ascalaphus:
-I want to allow the bravo to wield more than one weapon if he chooses, but to only make the primary really shine. I thought this and the options for standard actions would already discourage 2-weapon fighting. You think I need more?

-I'm not particularly worried about burning through elan too fast for parry & riposte, as doing so will make the bravo will miss out on some other cool uses for his elan. However, due to previous suggestions by rainzex and yourself, Engaging Feint will be moving to 3rd level

-Dex to damage was part of the main class a mere week ago. A friend pointed out to me that I had quite a few class features that referenced specific ability scores, and that it was pulling the class in too many directions. I removed about half of them. Would getting rid of that feat fix the problem?

***

OKAY! Here's my first draft for the 7th level ability. Critique away...

Debilitating Feint (Ex): If the bravo is using a fighting style and deals deals damage with an attack of opportunity granted by Engaging Feint, the creature he dealt damage to must succeed on a saving throw (DC = 1/2 level + Charisma modifier) or be subject to a debilitating effect that lasts 1d4 rounds. The saving throw and effect differ, based on the fighting style he is using:

Aldori (fox): Will
The creature can not make attacks of opportunity.
Broylin (cobra): Ref
The creature is staggered.
Hallov (wolf): Fort
The creature takes a -4 penalty to it's AC and CMD.
Lannish (lion): Will
The creatures becomes shakened.
Silveri (hare): Fort
The creature moves at half its normal speed.

Verdant Wheel

Ciaran Barnes, a couple more ideas.

"bravo weapons" - defined as simply "any light or one-handed melee" is clear enough. then, when it comes to using Opportune Attack, i would just say "when using a bravo weapon with at least one hand free," similar to how Deflect Arrows talks about freehanding.

Fighting Style, the rounds/day aspect, needs a name. something which captures the hyper-concentration aspect of it. also, as this class now has several mechanics utilizing AoOs, i think it'd be clever to grant an additional number of attacks of opportunity (per round) while using the as-yet-unnamed rounds/day ability. i could suggest either a +1 per two Bravo levels, or, an additional amount equal to Bravo's Intelligence bonus. either way, something that'd stack with Combat Reflexes (which, by the way, is conspicuously missing from your Bonus Feats list). finally, and especially because it makes no sense with Silveri, i wouldn't limit the bonuses granted to just one enemy; instead allow his 'focus' to be generalized - it is after all a finite resource. and, to point out, bonuses to Diplomacy, Disguise, and Knowledge (Local) kinda don't make sense to an ability that is measured in rounds. just sayin.

for Engaging Feint, i would consider flipping the style abilities above (no-AoO/stagger/AC-4/shaken/half-speed) right into the mechanic itself (at 3rd), and let your 7th level ability allow Bravo to roll a single 'area feint' against all adjacent enemies. this would allow him to exert a respectable amount of battlefield control. also, conceptually, i really like the Aldori, Broylin and Lannish exploitative measures. the other two do not seem as thematically linked to the animal spirit. maybe Hallov (wolf) can deny foes the 5-foot-step and withdraw actions, and Silveri (hare) can enforce a +5 DC increase to enemy concentration checks? or something.

if Surprise Maneuver is too good, you could restrict it even more by only allowing it to function against a feinted foe.

this is coming along well! cheers.

Sovereign Court

Re: 2WF -

I'm just missing a good rationale here. Why can only one hand be a bravo hand? Is the other hand doing something? In the case of stuff like Crane Style, it's obvious you need a free hand to do all sort of stuff. In the case of the bravo I'm not really seeing it.

It's particularly weird because there are some feats, Two-Weapon Feint and Improved Two-Weapon Feint, that I would expect could be of some use to a feint-oriented character such as the bravo.

These feats give up your first primary-hand attack (a bravo weapon), but you keep the secondary hand attacks. But those aren't bravo. That's rather unfortunate.

As I'm looking at it in detail, it seems you use the Swashbuckler feat to allow use of light shields/bucklers. The main class pretty much insists you stay away from heavy shields. Maybe it'd be better to cut away proficiency in heavy shields altogether?

The Main Gauche Defence feat is a bit wonky though. It provides a +1 AC, which isn't spectacular. But does it also trigger the penalties to class abilities for using a shield? (Probably shouldn't.) And do enhancement bonuses on the weapon also add to AC? That might be appropriate, and there's precedent for it in the Shield Master feat, that adds a shield's defensive bonuses to attacks with the shield.

As I look at it, I really wonder if the class should be 1-weapon focused. As it is, there aren't many good 2WF builds available, but the concept captures our imagination nonetheless. The problem with 2WF is usually poor to-hit and damage for each of the weapons, and longer feat chains, compared to 2HW builds. The Bravo comes equipped with solutions to those problems, particularly Opportune Attack.

The danger in that is that 2WF Bravos might outpace 1H Bravo builds. This is definitely tricky.

---

Quote:


Aldori (fox): Will
The creature can not cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Broylin (cobra): Ref
The creature is staggered.
Hallov (wolf): Fort
The creature takes a -4 penalty to it's AC and CMD.
Lannish (lion): Will
The creatures becomes shakened shaken.
Silveri (hare): Fort
The creature moves at half its normal speed.

Staggered and moving at half speed are a lot alike. How about giving Cobra the Sickened condition, but with no chance of upgrade to Nauseated, while Hare causes Staggered?

Now, Sickened is more powerful than Shaken, but we already said it couldn't be escalated to Nauseated. So let's say explicitly that this Shaken condition can be aggravated to Frightened:

"The creature becomes Shaken. If it was already Shaken by a different effect it becomes Frightened."

(By now the majority of nonmagical effects in the game that cause Shaken have text preventing it from escalating to Frightened. However, you can use the Shaken condition provided by those effects to lay a foundation for the style effect to cause Frightened. It's a level 7 ability after all.)


On the 1-handed weapons/bravo weapons detail:
My intent was to make a warrior with one hand free, where that hand as being used to distract the opponent (see AC Bonus) or is simply free to do "stuff" while fighting. Version 1 included lots of references to having a hand free. However, I didn't want abilities to disappear if someone pulled out a potion or held a torch aloft. I wanted to allow situations where an items sits passively in the off hand. So from that sprang the need for a smaller weapon to deal bonus damage, so that it can complete with 2-weapon or 2-handed builds. After that was in place, and became fairly easy to get. I could go on. I lost sight of some of the core concept, but some new ones came along. Now I guess I need to figure out how to make sense of them all together.

I can add Combat Reflexes to the list of bonus feats, but I am unsure about adding another mechanic to gain more. Some - such as the one I have played with for the last 4 years or so - GMs don't like to give them up.

Fighting Style used to to be called Stances, and was changed be less swashbuckler-centric. I am open to suggestion of other names though. The single-enemy language came in recently. I will happily drop that, as it has been a headache.

Engaging Feint yada yada. First draft. Expect lots of changes. I pondered the area feint, but didn't want to copy Dazzling Display. I still have an idea or two though. One would use an ability like moving through a threatened square, where each additional target give the bravo a -2. Except it Bluff to feint. Thank you for the input on the effect being based on the current fighting style. It all helps.

Sovereign Court

What's the point of the Lunge Elan action? When you move towards someone, you rarely provoke. Did you intend it for getting past Reach? As is, you can use this power to walk around someone to set up a flank. Legal, but not in keeping with the word "Lunge"...

I wonder if there should be a way to move and full attack? The class does strike as a "quick, agile" fighting class, but giving a pounce-like ability might twist your theme a bit. It's probably better if you move and then make a single decisive attack, rather than a whole FA-routine.

OTOH, consider the Oracle of Battle's Surprising Charge ability for an example of how it can be done.

Verdant Wheel

Combat Reflexes
one of the reasons i have been so engaged with this class proposal is it’s level of ingenuity that combines both conceptual and mechanical flexibility. that you have so far succeeded in allowing bravo’s madness to be a feature and not a bug is impressive. but lately, there has been an increase in the interactivity between non-optional class features and the AoO as a mechanic. thus, in the spirit of maintaining that dynamic, I’d like to see an option for a 10-DX bravo to exploit that same niche.

Incentivizing vs punishing free-handing
as opposed to removing the benefits altogether, consider halving the benefits of Opportune Attack and AC Bonus (for example) when the bravo is wielding his weapon improperly.

Kata? (means “choreographed pattern of movements” or “form,” roughly)

Area feint
how about up to one threatened foe per INT/CHA modifier? or it could work like Cleave? (THAT'D BE COOL!)

Also, what about an ability that allowed a free-handing bravo to make a Bluff check to sub in for an Acrobatics checks made to avoid AoO’s provoked via movement? just came to me…

cheers


I really appreciate the MAD compliment, as making it a feature and not a bug, as you put it, was one of my original design goals. Thank you. I had to read the rest of paragraph one a few times but its solid criticism. Now please explain 10-DX.

free-handing: I will implement this tonight.

Kata doesn't tickle me. I'll mull over the name.

Love the Feint-Cleave. Will also work on that tonight.

Acrobatics bonuses/abilities was tied into an earlier draft and removed. Your suggestion though is one I have long seen as a potential sub for acrobatics. I want to avoid building skills into class features any more than I already have, but I will see what I can do.

Verdant Wheel

namely that a Bravo with a 10 Dexterity doesn't really benefit from Combat Reflexes. it'd be nice if he could have access to additional attacks of opportunity granted from his class. for example, while in a Kata (bad name), he gains +2 AoA per round. plus it'd remove what might be considered a 'feat tax' from a DX-based Bravo.


Hi de ho.

-Additional AoOs per round are now part of Fighting Styles, and increases with the number of fighting styles know.
-The ability to feint multiple opponents has always existed. A bravo could use two action and a point of elan to make three separatee feint attampts. However, the ability is now also built into Compound Attack. This is not quite the feint cleave discussed - the one I was quite thrilled about, but I can live with it.
-Avoiding AoOs is now built into Engaging Feint. I will most likely ttweak it in the future. The ability to avoid them completely is probably too much. I would prefer a simply way to make them unlikely to succeed.
-Still mulling over ways to encourage one-handed fighting.


In my mind, you only really need to do an immediate action Combat Maneuver once against an enemy. Depending on the combat maneuver, you could neutralize him fairly easily.

Maybe add a requirement to spend 2 elan points? Or whatever the ability is that eventually lets you do one of 4 things.


Ascalaphus
Yes, the Lunge action was meant to be in a straight line instead of around them. Alternately, it can be used if you are short on movement. Good catch, I will fix that.

I am familiar with Surprising Charge, and based on this suggestion and Cheapy's, I am going to replace the level 8 ability with a new one that gives the bravo a few ways to spend 2 points of elan.


Alright, I'm putting a cap on this one. Thank you everyone.

Sovereign Court

Huh? As in, finished, or as in shelved? (Non-native speaker.)


Finished, unless anyone sees a critical flaw. It has changed quite a bit from when I first posted, but I'm so much happier with what the feedback has yielded. It started out very much as a swashbuckler, and although there are some remnants of that, it is quite a bit different now. As I mentioned in the first post, this has been a 2+ year project. Each time I take time away from it I have a new perspective and can more objectively modify it.

What do you think of the current "finished" version?

Sovereign Court

Ah, I hadn't noticed you put up a new PDF.

* Feint: you gain it as a bonus feat only when using bravo weapons. Does that allow you to qualify for follow-up feats? I expect that was your intent. But I'm not sure that "you have this feat while wielding X" allows you to take follow-up feats. Maybe you should look at the language for ranger combat styles;

Ranger combat style, PRD wrote:

At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. The ranger's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level.

(...)

The benefits of the ranger's chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style feats when wearing heavy armor.

It may seem nitpicky but it's safer to be precise I think. So if you say that you gain Improved Feint as a bonus feat, but lose access if you're not using a bravo weapon, you should be good. That should allow you to buy other feint feats. (I noticed you did use this language for the bonus feats.)

* Fighting Style:

Quote:
When using a fighting style the bravo gains a +2 competence bonus to AC, attacks with bravo weapons, and the benefit listed in the fighting style. An exception is Silveri, whose specific benefit is a bonus to base speed.

Does this mean Silveri don't gain a bonus to hit and AC?

Quote:
He also gains the bonus to the skills listed in the fighting style, but not specific to one enemy.

I can't find any other mention of fighting style working only against a single enemy. Is this a leftover from a previous version?

* Engaging feint: noticed a missing word.

Quote:
a creature under the effect of a bravo's feint

Also, clarify "makes an attack that doesn't involve the Bravo"; if I make a full attack and one iterative attack targets the bravo, and the other one targets some else, does that trigger the engaging feint?

* Lunge: I'm still not sure what the point of this ability is. What does it let you do that charging doesn't?

* Parry:

Quote:

as an immediate action he may add half his level as

an insight bonus to his Armor Class against a single
attack. If this makes the inquisitor's AC higher than the
opponent’s attack roll, the attack misses.

I assume you can use this ability after the attack roll result was announced, but before you reveal if it hits? That should probably be said explitly.

* Ripose: probably should say that use of this ability is a free action. Because sometimes these abilities are Immediate.

* Debilitating Attack refers to the fighting style you're using, but neither it nor Engaging Feint necessitates you currently being in a fighting style. Can you still use this ability if you've already spent all your rounds of fighting style? Also, what happens if (using Master of Five Styles) you're in more than one style while using this ability?

* Compound Attack - I like the idea, but there are some tricky bits here.

1) Do you do the attack with multiple dice rolls as an Attack Action (this opening it up to Vital Strike), or as a special attack that happens to cost a standard action (like Cleave)? Strictly by how you've written it, it seems to be the latter.

2) Right now you can't combine Lunge and Compound Attack because they're both separate special standard actions. If you rewrote Lunge to say "as a standard action, you may move (X) and then take an attack action", and Compound Attack to say "when you use the attack action", they'd work together, and be pretty nice.

3) You get Improved Feint at level 1, which makes feinting a move action. But Compound Attack implies that to get the multi-target Bluff you need to spend a standard action, which means you can't attack. This is rather unattractive. Did you mean to say "when you use the feint action, you may use a single bluff check to feint up to X opponents"? That way you could bluff as a Move action, see who's been affected, and make a multi-dice Compound Attack against one of those schmucks.

4) Are you sure that a single Bluff check against all those enemies is ideal? Feinting is opposed by a static DC, not an opposed check. So if you roll well on Bluff, you'll probably bluff all targets, and if you roll poorly, none of them. It might be better to make separate checks against all of them, to spread your chances a bit.

* Rapid Adaptation: adopting a style increases your AC. Can you then activate a style as immediate action to increase AC to evade an attack that would otherwise hit you?

===

This may seem like a lot of criticism, but I'm doing it because I really like the idea of the bravo. As I've said before I have a soft spot for lightweight warriors, and this is one of the best designs I've seen. So I want it to be perfect :)

On that note. Feinting is really what this class is about, but there are some notable limits on what can be feinted;

PRD, Feint wrote:
When feinting against a nonhumanoid you take a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a -8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

I don't completely agree with these modifiers. Even mindless creatures react to their environment, so it should be possible to divert them. Anyone who's played computer games and figured out how to get the AI to go where you wanted has seen this in action. You should be able to feint golems and oozes. Animals are tricky but they too should be feintable, as hunters, snake charmers and circus people should be able to attest.

Proposal: one or two feats to allow feinting mindless and "wild" creatures. Offsetting some of the penalties (maybe tied to Handle Animal) and allowing feinting "bots".


First thought after browsing: I would rename fighting styles into something else, to avoid confusion with style feats from Ultimate Combat.


I have updated the PDF almost every day. It's the beauty of using an offsite file and a link. Do not worry yourself about the length of your post and the criticism. This is all good criticism. I have read your post start to finish and will address everything later today, as I didn't charge my tablet.

Sovereign Court

@Drejk: perhaps "Stance" is a safer word then.

@Ciaran: good to hear :)


Ascalaphus:
I think I addressed everything in the updated PDF. I made choices about what action types certain things are. Thee corrections were made and wording altered. I hope the altered wording helps. take a look and tell me. Yes, Compound Attack allow multiple feints but no attacks, but the class has ways to get "free" attacks. And only one swift/immediate action per turn, so there are limits on what can done in a single round. That is staying as is.

Drejk:
You aren't the first person to mention that. I have already changed the name of the class feature from Stances to Fighting Styles between v3 and v4. I am not opposed to changing it again, but the new name would have to feel right to me. I am OK with the slight redundancy if a new name does not reveal it self.

Sovereign Court

Hmm. I'm not sure the document updated properly, I'm still seeing the old language/typos.


Got it. Try again.


Am I missing a rule here or is two weapon fighting the best combat option for this einhander fighting class?

You spend elan to move and then full attack with the feats two weapon feint and greater feint for big damage. This build also lets you full attack with a feint without spending an elan (whereas a one handed version would still have to spend a move action to feint or spend a swift action and an elan to feint and full attack).

Sovereign Court

Feint: "The benefits of the feat applies apply only when he wields a bravo weapon.[/b]

Fighting Style: making additional AoOs is rather buried in the bottom of the text. Maybe this should be a separate ability, to call more attention to it?

Text formatting: here and there around the picture, words get stretched up to an unsightly degree. Particularly "w e a r s" in the top-right corner of page 2. I don't know if you can do anything about it.

Lunge: I STILL don't understand the point of this. When would you use this? One quarter your speed isn't a great deal different from a 5ft step, and using a 5ft step doesn't cost elan and doesn't stop you from using Compound Attack. Could you describe what you're supposed to use this for? Also, isn't it awkward that this has the same name Lunge feat?

Debilitating Attack:
- what if using more than one style? Probably inflict on effect per attack, but can you cause several effects after another?
- what if you hit someone for the same effect again?
- no style used: is the ability damage temporary like the other effects?
- lion: "shaken", not "shakened"

Rapid Adaptation: can you enter an AC-enhancing style to avoid an attack that would otherwise hit you? (Same language as Riposte?)


Excaliburproxy:
2-W fighting is trying to be discouraged, and if I have witten things correctly, the off-hand weapon will not gain most of the benefits. Furthermore, I have hopefully encouraged attacking as a standard action. Did I miss something, or did you only read certain parts?

Ascalaphus:
Yes, the extra AoOs is buried at the end. I put it there because I have tied the bonus to additional fighting styles. I will draw more attention to it.

The text stretching is something I have to fix after text moves. I do my best, but don't always catch it. It involves moving and resizing the pictures. The final touches can wait.

OK, Lunge. It is intended to get a smidgen of extra movement. Lets say you move 30 ft and need 5 more ft so you can attack. If you use the Silveri fighting style or have a bonus to speed such as the spell Haste, you can lunge 10 ft or more. You could also lunge to get past the threatened squares of a creature with reach. Mostly it is there for an option, to keep the bravo moving and acting.

Debilitating Attack was a late addition to the bravo, and has had little time to congeal. How would you write it? Feel free to include whatever changes you like.

Good point on rapid adaptation. I hadn't thought about it that way, and its been left to interpretation. I don't know which way to go on it.


I know you give the class the special ability to make an attack roll 2+ times and take the highest as a standard action, but I still think it is probably preferable to make the full attack action (ESPECIALLY when you are dual wielding) if only because the first two attacks are probably going to hit down the line anyways and the damage from feint will not multiply on a critical hit but will still multiply with multiple attacks.

The only serious class feature that won't work is the bonus to feint bluffs right (as it is reduced to half)? I don't think that is such a big deal because there are a lot of ways to buff your feint bluff so high (feint feats; skill focus; spell buffs; the fox style; dueling weapon enchantment; etc.) that most feint checks that you make at late levels (where the disparity in bonuses really shows) will be automatic successes anyways.

Maybe you could alter compound attack so that it is the exception to the feint bonus precision damage not being multiplied on a critical hit? Even if you did that, I would have to do the math to figure out what is really the best. I suspect that the two weapon fighting would still be better for a much larger range of armor classes, but perhaps the value of all the feats and enchantments you need would roughly offset the higher damage.


The emphasis on standard actions was to encourage movement. There are ways built in to make getting hit by an AoO difficult or impossible. Compound attack is a way to make sure you hit, and later on to make sure you get a critical hit. In the start of v4 I went back and forth with the damage from opportune attack being able to multiply or not. One of my pals pointed out that between compound attack, crit feats, and deadly strike at level 12, he would be swinging a pick for the X5 critical multiplier. the static damage bonus gets out of hand at that point. I wouldn't know where to start, if I were to "do the math" and see which versions of class features put the class on par with others.

You noticed the half-level to feint. With ranks in Bluff skill even if not maxed out, I figure feints will become pretty easy after a while. Adding level or half level exists so a character isn't required to max out Bluff.

I don't want to be dismissive of your ideas. Its that I have already changed things multiple times and used the advice of others to improve things to make it what it is now. Please know that I appreciate you looking so closely and that I have pondered over some of these same things myself. Since you already have an inkling to do so, are there any other potential abuses you can see?


Well, the two weapon fighting thing is just the strongest outcome of the class as it is written currently as even without thinking of critical hits, you might expect the application of the static bonus 2 to 5 times over over (as that is just how many hits are going to land against a flatfooted opponent).

And yeah: that pick will crit x5, but with improved crit that will only happen on a 19 or 20. With 4 rolls with a standard: that means you will threaten crit roughly 43.4% of the time. The full attack is still better. The only really broken weapon for my suggested version would be a falcata probably. However, that would only do x4 damage and threaten a critical roughly 59.1% of the time. Meanwhile, the mighty scimitar would do just x3 damage and threaten critical 76% of the time. With the multiplied static bonus, I would call dual wielding and 2wf about the same, but with 2wf being the more versatile build with a higher buy-in cost.

Regardless, I understand your position. I can't think of any serious exploit right now, but I will say that the non-2WF build rules as written might be a little underpowered compared to a lot of stuff (like the upcoming swashbuckler for instance or any decent ranged build of course). I'll keep thinking about it though.

Sovereign Court

I'm a little confused about 2WF right now. It seems that the current definition of bravo weapons -

Quote:
Many bravo class features refer to bravo weapons, which are light and one-handed melee weapons in one hand.

- allows you to you use 2WF with both weapons counting as bravo weapons, but excludes 1-handed weapons wielded with 2 hands. Is that the intention?

(By the way, Opportune Attack and Improved Whip Mastery looks like a lot of fun.)

Lunge: I'm beginning to see the use of it. It's a bit niche, but it's an option you only pay for when you need it so that's okay. I think from all the Elan actions this would be the one you use most rarely.

What I don't really like is that you introduce two special standard actions to attack (Lunge and Compound Attack). This means yet another type of weird action that can't be combined with Spring Attack, Vital Strike or Cleave. Do you think this is wise? You're trying to make moving+fighting competitive with just trying to stand still and making full attacks.

Okay, my workup on Debilitating Attack:

Quote:


Debilitating Attack (Ex): Beginnig at 7th level, when a bravo
deals deals damage with an attack of opportunity granted by Engaging Feint, the creature he dealt damage to is subjected to a debilitating effect. If the bravo is currently using a fighting style, the damaged creature must succeed on a saving throw (DC = 1/2 level + Charisma modifier) or be subject to a debilitating effect that lasts for a number of rounds equal to half his level. The saving throw and effect differ, based on the fighting style he is using:

* Aldori (fox): Will; cannot make attacks of
opportunity.
* Broylin (cobra): Fortitude; becomes sickened.
* Hallov (wolf): Reflex; takes a -4 penalty to it's AC.
* Lannish (lion): Will; becomes shaken.
* Silveri (hare): Reflex; becomes fatigued.

These effects do not stack with pre-existing conditions (Broylin cannot aggravate Sickened into Nauseated). If the bravo strikes an enemy already suffering the condition associated with his fighting style, or is not using a fighting style, he instead inflicts 2 points of ability damage to a random ability. There is no save against this effect and the ability damage remains until healed, naturally or otherwise.

I upgraded the ability damage to 2 because in PF, ability damage only does stuff when suffering an even amount. Since it is dealt to a random ability, you can't repeatedly try to damage the same ability to achieve actual effect. As a random effect, it's already uncertain just how much it'll do, but the effect is less than those conditions, so I didn't think a saving throw was required for the ability damage. Finally, I decided that stacking conditions might be on the powerful side so I let that do ability damage instead.

As a side note, the man with the hammer is a neat pick, but it doesn't look like a one-handed weapon to me...


May I suggest something going towards my worry (that the rules as written offer a perverse incentive to go towards making as many attacks as possible after a feint in order to multiply hits getting the bonus precision damage once per hit).

How about this:

Improved Compound Attack (Ex):
Beginning at 11th
level as a special attack that uses a standard action, a bravo can either make a single attack with a bravo weapon,rolling three times and using the highest result, or he can attempt to feint three opponents. When using the first version of this ability with a duelist weapon and no shield (besides a buckler) or weapon in the opposite hand, if all three attack rolls against an opponent would beat that enemy's AC, then multiply the damage from the attack x2 (including precision damage if it applies).

Greater Compound Attack (Ex):
Beginning at 16th level as a special action that uses a standard action, a bravo can either make a single attack with a bravo weapon,rolling four times and using the highest result or he can attempt to feint four opponents. When using the first version of this ability with a duelist weapon and no shield (besides a buckler) or weapon in the opposite hand, if at least three attack rolls against an opponent would beat that enemy's AC, then multiply the damage from the attack x2 (including precision damage if it applies). If all 4 would beat its AC then multiply the damage x3 (including precision damage if it applies).


Excaliburproxy:
Thank you for the numbers. Even though what kind of game the GM runs can throw things like this out the window, its good to have an idea of what can happen in a "standard" environment. As for the Compound Attack mods, I will have to think about it. As you wrote it, its getting a bit wordy and confusing, which is something the other forum members have been helping me get away from. :) The idea behind your proposal is to keep damage up, such that if you "hit" with three then you deal damage as two, if you "hit" with four then you deal damage as three. Ultimately though, your suggestions are to keep the one-handed weapon on par with other options. Does that sound right?

Acaphalus:
Bravo weapons used to be more specific, but was wordy and confusing. At the suggestion of rainsax, who made the strong point that I should offer incentive to using a single weapon instead of prohibiting other options. So I simplified it. Today, I have succumbed to input once again. It now reads: "Many bravo class features refer to bravo weapons, which are melee weapons not wielded two-handed or in an off hand." Please discuss.

I updated Lunge. I think it can now do what I want it to, and what you want it to. "Lunge: as a free action before using a standard action to make an attack, he can move one quarter his speed directly towards the target of the attack. He must end the movement in the closest square from which he can attack. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the target." Is it too long? I find that happened in these critiques. Extra wording to support intent.

I put in your new Debilitating Attack, with a few tiny tweaks. I completely agree about 2 points, and it is advice I have offered before to another. I only put 1 so it would remain a lesser option. I like what you have done though. One concern though. The conditions not stacking. Is it really OP for them to not stack? I don't see this coming into play often. My intent with these special attacks was to encourage the enemy to stay focussed on the bravo. If the enemy does what the bravo wants, then the bravo won't be making many attacks of opportunity.

And finally, I might agree with you about the hammer guy, but I like the pic too much. I had a hell of a time finding good ones that don't have swords. And he looks pretty sweet standing next to the capstone!


You have the right of my intent, Ciaran. Though I would also like this class to perform closer to melee classes that rely on full attacks. In my opinion, it would be good to have a melee class that approaches others using standard action attacks, even if they are not quite as effective at full attacking. It is a niche that needs filling.

And I do agree that my writeup is wordy. Academia has ruined me as I have come to forsake all things for precision of meaning.


What do/did you study?


I am an economist (which you might reverse engineer from my use of the phrase "perverse incentive").


I am an electrician. Our code books are wordy and confusing, intentionally written to be obscure unless you have been trained to interpret them, such as by going to a four year trade school as I did. I know that in games like PF, lots of words are sometimes required, but I try to keep things simple. Its funny how, very often, the shorter the home-brewed class feature the less attention it seems to get.

I have a potential alteration to Opportune Attack, where half of the bonus damage is not precision-based damage. How do you think that will affect things?


Well, you may have a selection bias of sorts on these boards. I only came back to this board recently, but I like homebrewing stuff in general. The kick I get out of this stuff is that I like to think about new rules and using them. I bet that is true of a lot of frequent posters here and thus people here may be attracted to a higher level of complexity relative to the gaming public at large.

Verdant Wheel

toss the 'bravo weapons' idea? substitute "while fighting with one hand free", changing the locus from the implement to the lack of one.

Bravo Style (renamed Opportune Attack):
Whenever the bravo fights with one of his hands free, he gains a number of advantages. First, he may make an additional number of attacks of opportunity equal to his Intelligence modifier. Second, he benefits from the Improved Feint feat. Thirdly, he gains a bonus to damage equal to his bravo level when making attacks of opportunity, or when his opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC.

also, what about renaming 'styles' to 'techniques' for discreetness?

lastly, the timeframe of rounds/level duration of focusing technique and certain skills (Disguise, Knowledge Local, etc) seems out of phase. kinda bugs me.

Layers of Feint - maybe instead of multiplying damage if you feint an opponent multiple times, you can select multiple conditions to afflict them with, based on school, which could be expanded to provide 2 or 3 each (under Debilitating Attack)?

cheers


This all started out as "one hand free", but I wanted allow some versatility. What if the bravo is carrying an item but not fighting with it, such as a potion, a dropped weapon, a torch? My intent is not necessarily fighting with one hand free, but rather fighting with only one hand. How can I better accomplish that? rainsax, I had tried to implement your suggestion of incentivizing it, but obviously did not succeed.

I kind of dig Fighting Techniques...

The lasting skill bonuses. OK, so I wanted to provide an incentive for having a good intelligence, without requiring it. You are right that it is awkwardly sitting there. Some skill bonuses are really no good over a matter of rounds. Some require minutes. Ideas?

Layers of Feint. Are you proposing something new, or a mod to an existing class feeature?

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