Lowering CR Gained by Race and Template


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I recently started running a new campaign and i've got into a problem with one of the characters.

I know the rule about using monsters as PC, that says that every 3 levels you gain an additional level, a number of times that equals half the monster base cr rounded down.

But is that the same if the additional CR is gained not for using a monster, but for stacking CR with race and templates?
For example with a +1CR Race and a +2 CR template, would he be allowed to gain the additional level when the group is between level 6th and 7th? ( counting that the with that cr the pc's started at level 4, 6th to 7th level is between 2nd and 3rd level gained by the group if i understood correctly the rules).

I'm leaning toward not letting the CR gained by race and template be lowered, since the rules says it's that way because racial HD are less valuable than class levels in the long run, but those two don't add HD, just a lot of other things, but i was wondering what the general consensus is in this matter if there's one.

Thanks :D


No one? :(


Can you give us the race/class/template combination?

This kind of problem is not easy (or not at all) solvable with RAW so it is time for a GM call. With some more information we can say something like 'this combination is OP' or 'The PC sucks .. give him two more levels to be competitive'. I hope that helps.


Short answer, create the base monster + templates and that's your final monster CR, go from there.

And as Eridan points out, knowing the specific race and template (and even the class) would definitely help (as, what CR 1 monster wouldn't add HD?)

Following the Monsters as PCs:

Base Monster Race 1 CR
Template +2 CR
Final Monster Race (MR) CR 3

"Normal" PCs Average Level (PAL)

PAL --- MR
3 ----- CR 3 + 0 PC levels
4 ----- CR 3 + 1 PC levels
5 ----- CR 3 + 2 PC levels
5.5 --- CR 3 + 3 PC levels
6 ----- CR 3 + 4 PC levels
7+ ---- Advance as normal as you only gain the bonus-every-three-levels-level a number of times equal to 1/2 base MR CR, round down. So, the example monster PC will end up having 2 PC classes less than the rest of the party from when the party reaches 6th level and there after.

When the Monsters as PCs section says "It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level..." I take it as assuming the monster character started adventuring at their final calculated CR...because that's the earliest it should be introduced in order to maintain party level balance. So one should count the "every 3 levels" from that base, not from when actually introduced into the party. Doing it this way allows the GM to calculate how many PC levels the monster character should have when introduced into an existing party.

In other words, looking at the minotaur example. If you calculate the 'extra level every 3 levels' after introducing the minotaur character into the campaign; then if introduced to a 10th level party, the minotaur would only have 6 PC levels. But had the minotaur been introduced when the party was 4th level then by the time the party reaches 10th level the minotaur would be 8th level. Since the intent is to help balance out monster PCs at higher levels, then calculating from the monster's start of gaining PC levels is the way to go.

While on one hand, since templates do not often add HD to the creature, many templates bestow more powers/abilities/etc. as HD increases. So as the character gains levels they will gain those abilities from their template (unless it's specifically stated they're gained from racial HD) which is essentially why base CR + template CR should form the basis of the monstrous PC's CR when determining all else.

The caveat, of course, is if I've missed something somewhere that would go against this...or GM prerogative.


The Race/template is pretty OP in my opinion.

The pc started as drow noble, but since the campaign started pretty quickly i didn't have time to check all the abilities, and i say it's pretty OP for a base race, so i was leaning toward giving that a CR+1 like suggested in the forum post linked by the SRD.

For template he choose Dread Vampire, which i he said "it's only cause that way i can adventure in the sun"...well i was helping 3 new players make their pg's so i didn't check, since he was the only experienced player... my error, that template, like all other dreads, is totally broken so i'll ban that right away, going probably with a standard modified vampire, weaker but that doesn't burn on the sun ( still cr+2)

The class is alchimist(vivisectionist), and the party was starting at level 6
So with a cr+3 adjustement from race and template when starting the pc could have been an alchemist lv 3.

If following the rule of calculating the bonus level from when the pc started gaining PC levels, he should have gained a bonus one if using the rule for balancing monsters, so being level 4.

What i'm not so sure is using that rule for this combo, since the rule actually applies when using monsters as base, and in this case the CR is gained only by other means


A drow noble's CR is based on Class Level. They don't have Racial Hit Dice, as such, you should not need to give him any levels. The rebalancing is for things with Racial Hit Dice, as they don't progress as well as class levels. So your choices are to either have him be level 3 with his Dread Vampire template(how is he staying in the sun? Dread Vampires take damage while in sunlight and doesn't benefit from fast healing). The other option, I would suggest, is to take the Dread Vampire template away(talk to him about it) and have him take the Surface Infiltrator alternate trait from the Advance Race Guide, which gets rid of his darkvision and light blindness and gives him Low Light Vision instead.


I think i'm going with lowering the drow noble to drow ( the noble has really too much and it should be worth a cr+1) and creating a cr +2 lesser vampire template similar in power to the other cr2 templates, taking out light vulnerability but being weaker than normal vampire, since he wants to keep playing the vampire thing. Also no bonus levels since he hes no racial HD to start with.

Opinions on this solution? I think it's the best for keeping the thematic of the pg and not letting him overshadow the whole party with op race/template.

Any suggestion for the lesser vampire template?


gadeschaos wrote:

I think i'm going with lowering the drow noble to drow ( the noble has really too much and it should be worth a cr+1) and creating a cr +2 lesser vampire template similar in power to the other cr2 templates, taking out light vulnerability but being weaker than normal vampire, since he wants to keep playing the vampire thing. Also no bonus levels since he hes no racial HD to start with.

Opinions on this solution? I think it's the best for keeping the thematic of the pg and not letting him overshadow the whole party with op race/template.

Any suggestion for the lesser vampire template?

just remove the sunlight weakness on the standard vampire template and give him 1 free class level at 3rd level to compensate his CR of 3.

you don't need to nerf the standard vampire to accomodate the loss of sunlight weakness. even if you removed all the vampire weaknesses, it would still be a CR+2 template.

the weaknesses aren't even a balancing factor compared to other CR+2 templates or CR 3 monsters, they are merely there because of legacy lore, and because they need a way to allow PCs to kill a vampire. really, PCs that respawn and start every fight at full health, aren't really an issue. it doesn't make the party any stronger, it just restores strength the party lost.

PCs have CR = level -1 Drow Noble, have CR = level +0. meaning, Drow is +1 CR compared to PC races, tack on Vampire for CR+3. a free level at 3rd, but not 6th+ should be fine

but the drow, to milk free power, will likely try to milk advanced to gain more power at no cost.

Shadow Lodge

gadeschaos wrote:
Any suggestion for the lesser vampire template?

Not sure what CR adjustment this is, but I'm using this for a PC of mine whose character will be turned into a vampire at 5th-6th level:

Young Vampire

Half-Dead: Though you are no longer alive, you have not entirely shed your mortal nature. You are considered both undead and your previous type for purposes of spells (such as Charm Person or Detect Undead) and other effects dependent on type (such as Bane or favoured enemy), though positive and negative energy effects treat you as fully undead.

You gain the following benefits from your undead nature: immunity to death effects, disease, poison, sleep, energy drain, nonlethal damage, fatigue, and exhaustion. You no longer need to eat, sleep, or breathe.

You are still vulnerable to paralysis, mind-affecting effects, stun, and any affects requiring Fort saves except those listed above. You are still subject to ability damage and penalties, though you treat ability drain as damage instead. You retain your constitution score.

You do not gain fast healing, but instead retain your natural rate of healing.

Weaknesses: You have the same aversion towards garlic, mirrors, and holy symbols that a vampire does, though you receive a +2 bonus on your Will save to overcome this revulsion. You require an invitation to enter a private dwelling. When exposed to direct sunlight or immersed in running water, you take d6 damage per round. This damage cannot be reduced by any means. As a coup-de-grace, an opponent can drive a wooden stake through your heart. If you are not killed outright by the coup-de-grace, you are still rendered completely immobile by the stake, and cannot heal by any means until it is removed.

Other Abilities (as described in the Vampire template): Blood Drain, Darkvision 60ft, Channel Resistance +4, +2 Nat AC, Slam (d4). Your Slam attack does not cause energy drain.

*****

You can add a few bonus feats or extra stat adjustments if you want and remove the sunlight vulnerability entirely (though note Protective Penumbra will deal with that). I'm also planning on slowly adding extra powers to the PC, though not sure of the exact rate:

Basic Powers (level 5+): Spider Climb, Energy Resistance, additional +2 Nat AC (up to twice), skill bonus, feat, Children of the Night, DR 10 (magic and silver)

Advanced Powers (level 10+): Full undead type (with full weaknesses + shadowless), Fast healing 1, Dominating Gaze 1/day, Lesser Gaseous Form (1 round/level), Lesser Energy Drain (???)

Highest Powers (level 15+): Fast healing 5, Dominate at-will, Energy Drain, Gaseous Form


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:


just remove the sunlight weakness on the standard vampire template and give him 1 free class level at 3rd level to compensate his CR of 3.

you don't need to nerf the standard vampire to accomodate the loss of sunlight weakness. even if you removed all the vampire weaknesses, it would still be a CR+2 template.

the weaknesses aren't even a balancing factor compared to other CR+2 templates or CR 3 monsters, they are merely there because of legacy lore, and because they need a way to allow PCs to kill a vampire. really, PCs that respawn and start every fight at full health, aren't really an issue. it doesn't make the party any stronger, it just restores strength the party lost.

PCs have CR = level -1 Drow Noble, have CR = level +0. meaning, Drow is +1 CR compared to PC races, tack on Vampire for CR+3. a free level at 3rd, but not 6th+ should be fine

but the drow, to milk free power, will likely try to milk advanced to gain more power at no cost.

The advanced trick to get free power will not be allowed, i know the cheat of adding advanced to level up odd CRs at no cost and i don't like it.

Thanks all for the suggestions, i'll look better into the vampire, to me also it seemed actually on par with other CR+2 templates.

I also like Weirdo way, it's a nice way to add power with levels :D


Just a clarification about sunlight vulnerability, can you block it by covering yourself head to toe or do you need to not have the sun directly hit you, clothes not counting? ( i'm leaning toward the second option)


you should never let a pc play a noble drow. they are too powerful. CR does not match well. Note Cr of noble drow in the books are based off having low stat score build of stats. they are not actual rolled or useing higher level stats. Same when going into consideration when pc play monsters. you treath them as just that the monster. Noble drow have a RP of close to 40 or over this is 4 times a human. If i remember correctly the Advanced race guide tell you that every 12 points are so is equal to 1 actual level. so Noble drow come up are worth like 3.5 levels. If the pc want to play a Noble drow I suggest you have them rebuild the character as a normal drow and take the drow feats that make him or her a noble drow gives them all the powers over time. It is a chain of like 4 or 5 feats. this will help balance out the race. Then the template monsters become less of an issues..

Shadow Lodge

KainPen has a good point.

Advanced races and templates are hard to balance, especially when only one character has them. They can add big stat boosts or powerful magical abilities, but if you balance them by removing levels (the usual method) your HD, saves, BAB, and spell progressions suffer, which can make the character fragile and prevent them from having the standard tools to overcome challenges.

CR also does not translate well to a monster/template's power as a PC. At-will abilities aren't that much better than 3/day from the perspective of "what will challenge my PCs in this one encounter," but it's a big difference for a PC who may have multiple encounters in a day. There are also abilities that are more or less effective for a monster fighting PCs than a PC fighting monsters. It's more likely, for example, that the PC will be able to bypass a werewolf's DR/silver than that a monster will be able to bypass the werewolf PC's DR. Conversely, trip and disarm abilities are more useful for monsters (using them mostly against humanoid, armed PCs) than PCs (using them often against creatures that are very large, quadrupeds, flying creatures, or creatures without manufactured weapons).

I wouldn't say never let a PC play an advanced race or template, but the drow noble feat chain is a good idea since it's specifically designed as a way to balance the drow noble for PCs.

gadeschaos wrote:
Just a clarification about sunlight vulnerability, can you block it by covering yourself head to toe or do you need to not have the sun directly hit you, clothes not counting? ( i'm leaning toward the second option)

There's some debate over what provides protection (clothes are discussed as well as magical darkness). I personally lean towards mundane clothing not providing protection since it seems too easy.


Thanks, i'll say in the end normal clothing doesn't protect from the sun, and since darkness and penumbra are both the same level, i'll go with darkness not avoiding sunburn unless it changes the luminosity to darkness ( maybe having less damage with dim light)

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