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Hold the phone. You didn't say "thank you" when someone worked hard to throw you a birthday party?
I was wondering the same thing. I guess if you're the type of person that does not like birthday parties, does not like attention, and such events are uncomfortable for you, then it makes sense. But I would assume your friends/relatives know that about you.
That analogy only works if you pointed out the dolly to them before they went to all the trouble to do the heavy lifting, but then they did it anyway.
Otherwise this is the equivalent of pointing out the dolly that was hidden under the stairwell only after they went to all the trouble.
Agreed. Maybe this is a play style difference issue. If you have 5 players that all decide that want to play Pathfinder, and then one volunteers to be the GM, and then asks everyone what they want the campaign to be like, what kind of sessions that want to play in etc., then this makes sense.
The only campaigns I've played in have been more of the "Hey guys, I'm throwing together a campaign based on x, y, and z. Anyone interested?" Then the people that agree to play are the players. In such a scenario, offloading some of the GM work to the players doesn't really make much sense. The players would feel like their accomplishments weren't real or worth it if they were able to dictate the session, the enemies, the treasure, etc.
Because some people take it to passive-aggressive levels. "I did so much work, you have to respect and appreciate me for it," doesn't fly with me. I'll respect and appreciate you because your my friend and if you do a good job, but you don't get a free pass because you spent X hours working on this, particularly if you spent time working on things that no one asked you to work on.That is why I said that GMs "generally" deserve a high degree of respect. Not that they are "always" entitled to a high degree of respect. There are indeed some GMs who spend massive amounts of time and energy to craft a game and end up making the gaming experience miserable for everyone involved. I do agree, respect is earned and not given, and the quality of play has a great deal to do with the amount of respect that is afforded to a GM.
I've had people throw me birthday parties and get angry because I didn't say thank you or appreciate them enough for it... even though I didn't ask them to do it, and if they had asked me, I'd have told them not to do it.Hold the phone. You didn't say "thank you" when someone worked hard to throw you a birthday party? So let me see if I got this straight...someone went out of their way to do something very nice for you and you did not show any appreciation for it even in the form of a "thank you"? You realize that friends and relatives do things for each other out of the kindness of their hearts without being asked, right? And the only thing they want in return is a "thanks, dude." to show that their effort was appreciated. Are you surprised they got angry? Or were you purposefully snubbing them in an effort to make them angry?
I'm sorry, but that seems to demonstrate a severe lack of empathy and lack of regard for other people's feelings. People who go around saying "Hey, I never asked you for this!" tend to come off as spoiled adolescent children who haven't developed a sense of empathy and only appreciate gestures...
If you came over and painted my car neon green, I wouldn't even pretend to say thank you, I'd just be mad, regardless of how much time and effort it took you. Similarly, I hate my own birthday parties. So throwing me one would (and has) shown a fundamental lack of understanding about me and my personality. Why should I show appreciation when someone else is clearly showing a lack of empathy for me?
I have empathy and regularly show it to people, but faking appreciation is dishonest and doesn't help the person better understand who I am. I've also dealt with too many passive-aggressive people. People who would do things unasked, then act like everyone else owed them something for it. If you want to be owed something, you should work that out before hand. If you expect something, be upfront and ensure that you're going to get it. Communication is key.
The box analogy works, because the person does something with the EXPECTATION of reward, without having communicated that expectation before doing it. The second part relates to other comments I'm making, that communication prior to the doing can often improve the outcome for all.
The players would feel like their accomplishments weren't real or worth it if they were able to dictate the session, the enemies, the treasure, etc.
If you can find anywhere in my post history where I've said players should "dictate the session", or anything like determine their enemies/treasure/etc, please feel free to link it. I doubt you're going to find it though, because that isn't what I'm suggesting. If you want to converse with me about what I'm suggesting, I'd be happy to, but I'd appreciate that you don't put words in my mouth.
If you want to converse with me about what I'm suggesting, I'd be happy to, but I'd appreciate that you don't put words in my mouth.
Fair enough. Would you clarify what you mean by:
There are a myriad of ways to reduce your prep time, many of them including shifting portions of the creative workload to your players.
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If you came over and painted my car neon green, I wouldn't even pretend to say thank you, I'd just be mad, regardless of how much time and effort it took you. Similarly, I hate my own birthday parties.
Please do not let us be obtuse. That is a poor analogy, since the act of throwing someone a birthday party involves getting presents, food, decorations, guest invitations, etc., while the other act involves ruining your personal property.
So throwing me one would (and has) shown a fundamental lack of understanding about me and my personality. Why should I show appreciation when someone else is clearly showing a lack of empathy for me?
Yes it would show a lack of understanding, and your antipathy would certainly be justified. But only if you made it known very clearly to the person who threw you the party from the very beginning of the relationship that you absolutely hated birthday parties and could not stand them. And it would have to be made crystal clear because most people tend to enjoy parties, but many will say things along the lines of "shucks, you don't have to throw a party for little ol' me," or something along those lines, because they don't want to come off as a self-entitled spoiled brat who demands parties be thrown in their honor.
If you had made it clear from the very beginning to them and said something along the lines of "Dude, I'm not kidding. I really don't like birthday parties. If you want to get me a gift or bring some beer for my birthday, that's cool. But seriously, no parties. Can't stand 'em." then the party thrower has only him/herself to blame for the wasted effort.
With that I'm talking about a more collaborative process for creating the story, which I think is the hardest part (maybe not the most time consuming) part of prep. What is the story about? Where is it going? etc, that's stuff that's really easy to farm out once you learn how. Then as the GM, you just need to have some stats ready and pick specific monsters/enemies/etc to populate the story with.
We just finished phase 1 of a campaign, which took about year as the co-GM. My friend and I started Feb '13, I think actual play started in late April and wrapped up just before Christmas. That long planning period involved two major sections, just coming up with collections of stats and notes for the region (we were going with a sand box style) and fine tuning our character creation process.
In the character creation process I had numerous questions for players. They didn't have to answer them all, but rather got to pick which ones they would get to answer, which would tell me things about their character (and the world as it related to them). From this we got:
-a group of bandits that had murdered family members of two players
-a secret religious order
-a group of chaos mages, doing strange things in the city
-a rivalry within a faction of knights
All of that player created, plus some more stuff I'm blanking on right now. That told me where the players thought the story should go, now all I had to do was create challenges, problems and opportunities within those ideas. That still takes time, but having a decided upon direction greatly reduces the effort required.
As we went on, I continued to seek direct input about campaign events, personalities, etc, from the players. Why does Person A hate Person B? You found information in the library that scares you, what is it? Without any direction or guidance from me, the players always gave relevant answers to what was already going on, a few times I helped them tweak it, always trying to maintain the essence of their statement, more reminding them of details for campaign consistency.
And how does misogyny have anything to do with racism? Racist isn't a catch-all term.I think that he's saying that he doesnt care about racism but he DOES care about misogyny.
Yeah, you get my position. Misogyny and sexism really rubs me the wrong way, but as I have traveled I have seen many forms of racism. Everyone has a problem with one race/people and/or another. Permanently moving across a large country or cross-country can be good for seeing this, as in ah, you hate those types of brown people here, that is quaint. In my region it is more this other ethnic group that are despised.
If it goes too far though, I will bring out the mockery and poke holes in their views. It is the best way to punish them quickly and get back to the game.
I don't see the relevance of "player" and "GM" in this. I mean... would it be acceptable if the player insult another player? Or if the GM insult a player? Does the GM has some kind of sacred special status that makes him beyond insult, more than any other person at the table?
I see it like any other human relationship that becomes awry becouse someones got angry. Most the time it's wrong, but I'd like to hear the details from the other side too. Every story about two guys arguing has three versions (side A, side B, and truth)
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Because some people take it to passive-aggressive levels. "I did so much work, you have to respect and appreciate me for it," doesn't fly with me. I'll respect and appreciate you because your my friend and if you do a good job, but you don't get a free pass because you spent X hours working on this, particularly if you spent time working on things that no one asked you to work on.
I also don't have sympathy for GM's, because often they're working harder, not smarter. There are a myriad of ways to reduce your prep time, many of them including shifting portions of the creative workload to your players.
I cannot speak for others, but I know that there isn't anything wasted in prep. I've had stuff I've done 20 years ago that has been useful down the line for adventure threads or filling out an area, or the work I did for a town the players skip ends up being used because they change their minds and go in another direction. I don't think anyone, at least in my experience, is asking GMs to work on only specific things so I don't quite get the antipathy about them working on things "no one asked you to work on." The whole game is what I'm working on, not just your specific interest of the moment.
And I am not sure folks are asking for sympathy for their work load. But much like saying "thank you" when someone brings you something, it is often considered polite to at least vocalize some sort of appreciation for the fact that they're willing to do work at all for the game. There are some GMs that don't even bother to do a halfway decent job and it is quite apparent. I doubt anyone is asking for flowers and cards.
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I'm all for thanking a DM for the job he does and show him respect. after all a person is taking time out of their own lives to run a session. With all the work that follows. That being said being opn both sides of the screen I refuse to give DMs special treatment. When you take the role of the dm you accept and take on the extra demands and responsabilites that come with the position. So I will b polite and give m dm respect. I would still be angry if what happened to the op happened. To me. It's one thing to disallow a charcter concept. It's another to use the same thing against the party and possibly leading to my character getting killed. Saying no to my or another playing wanting to play a gunslinger. Than in the same session have one or more show up to target my character and/or the rest of the party is annoying. Be polite and show the dm respect. Don't be afraid to constructively call out a dm espically it was a bad call or decision.
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I agree with that. Being disruptive is always bad... cause well, you're being disruptive.
Criticism and issues should always include something constructive. I dig solutions where people work together to achieve something they both like.
I don't mind a bit of disruption, after all it is a social game and some people need to get it out of their system.
I could bully them into being more obedient, but I am not their teacher/prefect/boss. My players know when to stop fapping about and get back to it.
Pure neutral accepting dm here. Ommm.
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I feel the same way with players. They too deserve thanks and respect. After all like the DM they too take time out of their busy schedules and lives to play at the table . Again like the dm if need be and as long as it's constructive one should not be afraid to voice concerns to the player. Next game session I may have to do just that. I have a player in my games who keeps passing nodding off at the table for lack of sleep. I'm willing to let it pass when there is a good reason (work, in a relationship etc). When he shows up tired because he been playing Mass Effect online until; 3-4 am in the morning (the player constant excuse for lack of sleep) well I have to be less than polite at the end of next game. It's annoying and distruptive at the table.
Let him sleep, and then when he wakes up, tell him the psychic space elves killed his character while he slept. If only commander Shepherd were here to save the day.
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Let him sleep, and then when he wakes up, tell him the psychic space elves killed his character while he slept. If only commander Shepherd were here to save the day.
LOL
If it only happened rarely as opposed to almost every game. It would not bother me. His gamin addiction also seems ot be affecting health wise as when I saw him last I thought he had a stroke. Working full time and lack of sleep is not a good combination imo. If at least he would participate in email conversations outside of the game with the group. It feels like my game is a place for the player to take a nap. I ask players to write a adventure log on a wiki. Just to reduce my workload. Even that he does not do. Sp my next game one player I'm not asking to join
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The game went pretty good after that, so I think maybe he honestly realized he was in the wrong, but I have a -20 penalty to my sense motive check because of a curse of my own formerly known as Asperger's Syndrome so I can never truly be sure if an apology is sincere or not.
He's been a friend a long time (like 15 years or so... I knew him when he was like "buy me beer" because I was 22 and I was like "no, you are not 21 yet, I'm not going to jail for you" (forget exactly how much older I am), that's also another reason why I even gave him the chance to apologize without saying "Get the **** out of my game".
So, what do you all think? What would you do in this situation?
A few things in no particular order:
1. Good on you for not letting Asperger's keep you from GMing. This does, however, mean that you're gaming on hard mode and that your players will need to take this into account.
2. You are gaming with friends and you have existing relationships to maintain away from the table. While it raises the stakes it also means that you have more mechanisms to de-escalate the situation. Whatever else happens, prioritize the friendship over the game. You can always meet new people to game with (I was fortunate enough to meet a great group over Craigslist a few years back and we all became great friends even away from the table).
3. That your friend was upset about not being able to play a class that later showed up as an NPC is not entirely unreasonable. He did handle it poorly though and made the effort to apologize. You're not good at determining the sincerity of apologies so you're better off assuming that it was sincere until confronted with evidence to the contrary. You'll be a happier person for it.
4. Your choices were also understandable - you were trying to keep verisimilitude in your game by limiting some of the more outlandish race/class combinations to NPCs. Personally, I handle this differently and err on the side of letting players play what they want as long as it's not mechanically abusive.
5. On the bright side the player is invested in your game enough to feel strongly about it. While this will sometimes give rise to uncomfortable outbursts it also can allow for excellent gaming. The best game I ever played in had a huge ****storm over a PC charging fees for crafting. Words were said, we ended the session early, but once it was resolved we were better friends than we were before.
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First off, decide in advance how hard a line you want to take on the issue of restricting PC classes for story reasons. I would suggest relaxing your stance on it - there's plenty of techniques you can use to make interesting NPCs aside from saving a unique class for them.
Next, I'd sit down with your friend over a beer and talk to him about the incident at the table. Whatever else happens, keep it calm. Ask your friend to keep his outbursts calm and constructive or to talk to you away from the table since it's a struggle for you to continue the game in the face of a lot of negativity.
Let him sleep, and then when he wakes up, tell him the psychic space elves killed his character while he slept. If only commander Shepherd were here to save the day.LOL
If it only happened rarely as opposed to almost every game. It would not bother me. His gamin addiction also seems ot be affecting health wise as when I saw him last I thought he had a stroke. Working full time and lack of sleep is not a good combination imo. If at least he would participate in email conversations outside of the game with the group. It feels like my game is a place for the player to take a nap. I ask players to write a adventure log on a wiki. Just to reduce my workload. Even that he does not do. Sp my next game one player I'm not asking to join
If you ask, they are not always going to do it though. If you tell you are giving them work and some may rebel. I love logs but that is work.
The guy needs some sleep though.
I do the logs but I also ask one player to tell any player missing from last week what happened. Everyone contributes to the recalling, questions get asked, everyone works it out. No need for work because there is more storytelling!
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If you ask, they are not always going to do it though. If you tell you are giving them work and some may rebel. I love logs but that is work.
Funny thing is I never used to make a log. Wrote some quick notes or remembered everything. One of the player suggested creating a wiki and adding the logs to it. It's a good idea imo which I will use at the table when possible.
The guy needs some sleep though.
He gets all passive agressive and or makes excuses when I bring up the subject. I don't think he realizes or does not care how poorly it reflects on him. Next AP or new game I run he is not invited. As well his character may start to miss turns or be easier to hit next game. Again if it was for a good reason like work myself and the players could work with. Playing a mmo until 4 to 5 am in the morning not so much.
I do the logs but I also ask one player to tell any player missing from last week what happened. Everyone contributes to the recalling, questions get asked, everyone works it out. No need for work because there is more storytelling!
Pretty much the same at my table.
Honestly, it sounds like you cared more about your NPC than you did about your friend. Your players, not your NPCs, are supposed to be the center point of the campaign. I think you were being selfish because you wanted your NPC to be a special snow flake. Doesn't make your friend's reaction acceptable, but I definitely understand it.If you're looking for more evidence of this, go to the OP's user page and click the "favorites" tab. Look at which posts in this thread they've favorited. It's quite clear that they came to the forums with this story looking to be told that they're in the right and that they don't share any culpability for what happened.
You want to look at it that way, you can. DO I think those that tell me "You're a bad GM because you didn't tell the player outright that Black-Blooded Oracles are not allowed because they might be used for an NPC later?" are wrong? Yes. I do. I'm asking what people would do as a GM when a player says **** you. I've since talked to him, and outright told him I don't even recall him asking about it, and he's now said he's fully sorry and okay with it, so for the most part it's as over as it can be.
Any post that comes out as "BAD GM! **** YOU IS 100% JUSTIFIED!" to me, yeah I'm not gonna like it since justification of the behavior is not the point of the thread. Maybe I should have not given any scenario at all, and just left that out entirely, would that have been better?
EDIT: Also, some have pointed out that in my OP I said my reason was the NPC, but then I said later I only think the reason is the NPC since I don't remember him asking. The latter is more true, in that my thoughts get scattered sometimes especially when I am typing and trying to be less long-winded than I naturally am and because in trying to make my very long posts smaller, sometimes I leave out too much. If I had spent less time worrying about my OP being too long and more time making sure it was 100% crystal clear... maybe things would be different, or maybe not.
EDIT 2: Also, I have a special hatred for the term "special snowflake" due to another GM friend that throws that phrase around all the time (not just to me, but to everyone.) It's pretty much to a point of crying wolf with him, so that causes a bias to where every time anyone says "special snowflake" my gut reaction is to roll my eyes and consider them hostile.
EDIT 3: In fact, I can honestly say I've never said **** you or insulted a GM. I've said I find a house rule completely stupid and refused to play with said house rule, but I've never insulted the GM directly. So, by that respect, culpability of the GM in the situation means nothing to me because I do not see, as a player, any reason to say such things to the GM under any circumstances.
Any post that comes out as "BAD GM! **** YOU IS 100% JUSTIFIED!" to me, yeah I'm not gonna like it since justification of the behavior is not the point of the thread. Maybe I should have not given any scenario at all, and just left that out entirely, would that have been better?
So what IS the point of the thread? To make you feel better? People are always going to ask you what are the circumstances behind him telling you that. what do you want community to do, teach you how to talk to your friend? Only your other friends can help you that. Not some random strangers on the internet.
You show a lot of defensive behavior, and my guess that's probably because you feel somewhat guilty. While I hold in the DM's right to ban certain things, you could have handled the situation better.
I'm not telling that he was right telling you that (and I'm croatian and here we curse all the time, so an f-you or f-off even in anger aren't considered something incredible, in fact are probably expected), but I understand his anger.
Any post that comes out as "BAD GM! **** YOU IS 100% JUSTIFIED!" to me, yeah I'm not gonna like it since justification of the behavior is not the point of the thread. Maybe I should have not given any scenario at all, and just left that out entirely, would that have been better?So what IS the point of the thread? To make you feel better? People are always going to ask you what are the circumstances behind him telling you that. what do you want community to do, teach you how to talk to your friend? Only your other friends can help you that. Not some random strangers on the internet.
You show a lot of defensive behavior, and my guess that's probably because you feel somewhat guilty. While I hold in the DM's right to ban certain things, you could have handled the situation better.
I'm not telling that he was right telling you that (and I'm croatian and here we curse all the time, so an f-you or f-off even in anger aren't considered something incredible, in fact are probably expected), but I understand his anger.
No, I don't feel guilty, just confusion as to why I told him no when I almost never say no to anything without a level adjustment. Now I wish I'd just told everyone what he said, without any mention of having planned the NPC and left it at that (having been working on the NPC for awhile before she showed up, and then having sidelined her, I also don't recall when I settled on making her a black-blooded oracle, although I do know it was at least a possibility at the start of the campaign along with most others.) Because really, to me that's all that is necessary.
Trying to justify a player saying **** you to the GM or another player over a game issue was never the point. The point was, if you were the GM and a player said **** you to you, what would you do? I know what I did, it's done. I'm asking what others would do out of curiosity, and that's why whose fault it is, to me at least, has no bearing.
As I said, I have friends who curse like drunken sailors. I've had friends say **** you in jest, I'm okay with that. I do it myself. But, don't curse at me in hostility. That's the difference.
I've said it quite a few times now, but it bears saying again, I realize I worded my OP badly. I don't remember telling him no, therefore my reason I stated in the OP was the only reason I could come up with why I MIGHT have told him no. I also do not think he is lying. I believe him that I told him no, I just don't remember doing it, therefore by extension I don't remember my reason. So, reason must be the NPC as that's the only reason that makes sense.
IF I am defensive, it's because half of the people in this thread it seems all they say is "Your fault. Your fault. Your fault. Your fault. Your fault. Your fault. Your fault. Your fault." and completely ignoring that justification of the behavior doesn't make it right, at least in my opinion and some others. If you feel we are wrong, so be it but don't be surprised that we don't agree with you on that too.
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IF I am defensive, it's because half of the people in this thread it seems all they say is "Your fault. Your fault. Your fault. Your fault. Your fault. Your fault. Your fault. Your fault." and completely ignoring that justification of the behavior doesn't make it right, at least in my opinion and some others. If you feel we are wrong, so be it but don't be surprised that we don't agree with you on that too.
So, the scenario is player gets angry over a call, based on anger over issue with another related call, his frustration thus mounted, lets his anger slip out and says something in anger. DM threatens to pack up his stuff and go home unless player apologizes. DM seeks reinforcement from other Players, who don't want to touch the situation with the proverbial 10' poles. Player apologizes and game continues.
Sounds like normal life to me.
Now, what should GM do is the question posted...
Firstly, GM should, discuss privately with Player what's causing the aggravation and see if it can be resolved. GM should reinforce that sometimes he's going to make calls that the player will disagree with, and that it's not appropriate for the player to disrupt the game with an outburst like that, but that the GM would like to insure that the game is enjoyable for the Player, so please do not let frustrations reach a boiling point; please communicate frustrations after the game in an aside. GM should actually listen to what the Player says are his motivations and not just make assumptions based on half-remembered events.
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As to the whole "Snowflake"/DMPC discussion involving not including stuff you've kept players from having: The issue isn't including such a creature/item/class/etc. The issue is including it as a feature of a reoccurring/continuous NPC whom the PCs are forced to deal with for the entirety/majority of the campaign. "You can't be X because it's super-rare. By the way, meet Me'me, she's an X, and she'll be travelling with you, getting to experience all this crap because Xs are so very rare people won't know how to react to it. Also, she's an X because that guy you're supposed to beat is also an X. Neat story, huh?"
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I don't think anyone is trying to justify the player saying eff you, only trying to explain why he might have said it. I would assume with the purpose of helping you avoid the situation in the future.
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I don't think anyone is trying to justify the player saying eff you, only trying to explain why he might have said it. I would assume with the purpose of helping you avoid the situation in the future.
That's the point of any such post I make. Not being aware of this intent is I think why so many of these sorts of thread dissolve into personal attacks.
No one ever does anything for no reason. They may not be the most rational reasons, you may not agree with those reasons, but there are reasons nonetheless. Making an effort to understand the reasons doesn't mean the result is okay or that one condones it, but if one makes an effort to rationalize decisions one disagrees with, one may find they are less angry, more considerate, and a better decision-maker.
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I don't think anyone is trying to justify the player saying eff you, only trying to explain why he might have said it. I would assume with the purpose of helping you avoid the situation in the future.
Well, no one except for Vivianne Laflamme.
so I said "Seriously, saying **** you to the GM is a serious thing..."Why is that? The way you phrase that, you make it seem as though you think saying f*** you to the GM is more serious than saying it to another player. That's a bad approach to take as a GM; you shouldn't think that your authority over the game means you deserve some special respect.
That was when he said "You know what? **** you. I asked if I could be a Black-Blooded Oracle and you said no."This is a rather reasonable response, though it was clearly stated in anger. Telling a player he cannot take a certain archetype and then giving it to an NPC is just bad GMing.
Well, no one except for Vivianne Laflamme.
Sure, the player spoke out of anger. That's why he said "You know what? F@@# you. I asked if I could be a Black-Blooded Oracle and you said no." instead of "I asked if I could be a Black-Blooded Oracle and you said no. It makes me upset that you told that archetype was too rare for my PC to be one and then you included an NPC with that archetype. It makes me feel like you don't care about what I want out of the game and only care about what you want." I think the important issue is the disagreement, not the utterance that was said in anger. Especially since (1) the player soon apologized anyway and (2) AbsolutGrndZer0 is clearly trying to use the utterance to seize the moral high ground. This whole thing wouldn't have happened if he hadn't GMed selfishly. We shouldn't help him justify pushing all the blame on his friend.
Cool, the player can join AbsolutGrndZer0 down there.
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Plus excluding a class or race doesn't mean that I cannot use it for NPCs. Just that I don't want PCs having access to that specific class or race.
It all depends on when a banned class is used against the party. If say first session I wanted to play a Gunslinger get told it's not allowed. Then at some point in the session the group has to fight a npc Gunslinger I would a little annoyed. As it's less like banning a class and more like giving a advantage a npc. If my pc dies because of it yeah I would anfry. Now if a Gunslinger shows up in alter sessions I'm good with it.
Another thing that gets forgotten is that sometimes emotions run high and sometimes you say something impolite or rude. Then apologize. I'm not saying it's acceptable. Yet lately I see too much "fake innocence" going around among the adult population. Innocence works for kids not adults. I can understand being offended by a person coursing constantly. Getting offeneded by one bad word is a little much. Everyone likes to come across as a paragon of virtue. In reality no one is.
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I started a home brew campaign-world game about a year and a half ago. At the beginning I said, "you have to play humans," to my players and then added, "because I haven't developed the other races enough and I need time to do so and I need to start with a baseline for the campaign. At a later date I plan to allow/open-up other races as your human characters come into contact with their cultures." The players said "okay," and they just created alternate characters made up of goblins, gnolls, and ogres (and could have also chosen orcs and dwarves) the other night with plans to play them next session.
I wrote up 10 pages just on the core and base classes from the PRD describing how they fit within the campaign. None were excluded.
One player, at the beginning, chose to make an Inquisitor of the goddess of merchants. And I worked to make the class and concept fit within the churches' dogma and strictures.
If a player came to me wanting to play a class/archetype that I hadn't considered for my campaign I would bend over backward to help make it work. "The source of the class's powers are said to come from X...well, that won't work for my campaign, so how about they come from Y? Or Z?" The rules for the class are the same, but the flavor-text is different.
If a player wants to play something that is above the effective character level of the party then they can wait until the party reaches that level and during that time I can work with the player to include foreshadowing events and the like for the upcoming PC.
If a player wants to create a character that coincidentally happens to have the same archetype, class, etc., as a planned NPC then that's super-mega-awesomeness wrapped in a GM blanket of snuggly-goodness. It's a player generated hook and/or plot twist. The PC can then discover a relationship to the NPC in question in game. It can bring about moral and ethical dilemmas, the solving of old mysteries while bringing about revelations of new ones.
Saying "no" to a player's character concept more often simply reveals the iron cage of poor-imagination in which the GM has trapped themselves that saying "yes," while working to make it fit the campaign, ever ruins a session.
And if a player lobs an expletive in my direction as GM then that means I need to take a step back and consider what I'm doing wrong rather than use their use of our language to express their frustration as a way to self-righteously and immaturely shift the core of the issue off of my shoulders and on to them. The expletive is merely a punctuation marking the degree of frustration the player is experiencing; it communicates directly and clearly the emotional response to what I am doing as a GM.
Honestly, it sounds like you cared more about your NPC than you did about your friend. Your players, not your NPCs, are supposed to be the center point of the campaign. I think you were being selfish because you wanted your NPC to be a special snow flake. Doesn't make your friend's reaction acceptable, but I definitely understand it.If you're looking for more evidence of this, go to the OP's user page and click the "favorites" tab. Look at which posts in this thread they've favorited. It's quite clear that they came to the forums with this story looking to be told that they're in the right and that they don't share any culpability for what happened.You want to look at it that way, you can. DO I think those that tell me "You're a bad GM because you didn't tell the player outright that Black-Blooded Oracles are not allowed because they might be used for an NPC later?" are wrong? Yes. I do. I'm asking what people would do as a GM when a player says **** you. I've since talked to him, and outright told him I don't even recall him asking about it, and he's now said he's fully sorry and okay with it, so for the most part it's as over as it can be.
Any post that comes out as "BAD GM! **** YOU IS 100% JUSTIFIED!" to me, yeah I'm not gonna like it since justification of the behavior is not the point of the thread. Maybe I should have not given any scenario at all, and just left that out entirely, would that have been better?
EDIT: Also, some have pointed out that in my OP I said my reason was the NPC, but then I said later I only think the reason is the NPC since I don't remember him asking. The latter is more true, in that my thoughts get scattered sometimes especially when I am typing and trying to be less long-winded than I naturally am and because in trying to make my very long posts smaller, sometimes I leave out too much. If I had spent less time worrying about my OP being too long and more time making sure it was 100% crystal...
Yeah, don't worry if someone calls you or implies you are a bad dm/gm. Don't respond to it. It is the strangest insult (how the hell would they know? Have they played with you for years and in your best games?) but one that I keep coming across in these forums. A go to, if you will, a blatant attempt to twist the knife and get a reaction.
You know how good a dm you are, if you have a great group of players after years of games, and they thank you and say "that was great" after a session. Anyone else's opinions doesn't matter. See Anthony Hopkins for more:
http://quotes-lover.com/wp-content/uploads/Anthony-Hopkins-quote-My-philoso phy-is-Its-none-of-my-business-what-people-say-of-me-and-think-of-me.-I-am- what-I-am-and-I-do-what-I-do.-I-expect-nothing.jpg
I started a home brew campaign-world game about a year and a half ago. At the beginning I said, "you have to play humans," to my players and then added, "because I haven't developed the other races enough and I need time to do so and I need to start with a baseline for the campaign. At a later date I plan to allow/open-up other races as your human characters come into contact with their cultures." The players said "okay," and they just created alternate characters made up of goblins, gnolls, and ogres (and could have also chosen orcs and dwarves) the other night with plans to play them next session.
I wrote up 10 pages just on the core and base classes from the PRD describing how they fit within the campaign. None were excluded.
One player, at the beginning, chose to make an Inquisitor of the goddess of merchants. And I worked to make the class and concept fit within the churches' dogma and strictures.
If a player came to me wanting to play a class/archetype that I hadn't considered for my campaign I would bend over backward to help make it work. "The source of the class's powers are said to come from X...well, that won't work for my campaign, so how about they come from Y? Or Z?" The rules for the class are the same, but the flavor-text is different.
If a player wants to play something that is above the effective character level of the party then they can wait until the party reaches that level and during that time I can work with the player to include foreshadowing events and the like for the upcoming PC.
If a player wants to create a character that coincidentally happens to have the same archetype, class, etc., as a planned NPC then that's super-mega-awesomeness wrapped in a GM blanket of snuggly-goodness. It's a player generated hook and/or plot twist. The PC can then discover a relationship to the NPC in question in game. It can bring about moral and ethical dilemmas, the solving of old mysteries while bringing about revelations of new ones.
Saying "no" to a player's character...
Very good post, and a nice point on the iron cage of imagination. I mostly agree, and I can see through your explanations how your world is taking shape (it seems healthy and coming along). My concern is one of balance, so I will thoroughly balance a monster race if the players want to play them. I am all for demihumans and even odder things being played, but there must be balance. If they want to play a fish man, that is fine, we can do it, but the fish man must be statted to be balanced.
Very good post, and a nice point on the iron cage of imagination. I mostly agree, and I can see through your explanations how your world is taking shape (it seems healthy and coming along). My concern is one of balance, so I will thoroughly balance a monster race if the players want to play them. I am all for demihumans and even odder things being played, but there must be balance. If they want to play a fish man, that is fine, we can do it, but the fish man must be statted to be balanced.
Thank you.
And I agree. I threw in that paragraph about effective character level to address the need for a balance that at least doesn't shove other players into supporting cast roles to the out of balance player.
I'm looking forward to running the alternate characters and seeing how the player that chose to be an ogre-monk works out from a meta/balance GMing standpoint. Will the racial "levels" compensate for having lower heroic class levels than the rest of the party? Will having reach, higher racial HD, etc., be overpowering? As well as the other two races.
Yeah, if a player wants to play a dragon (or anything else; Robert the Gelatinous Cube) and the characters are 1st level then the player will need to be patient for the time when it will balance with the other characters in the group. My stress on this is that the "balance" is important between the players (so that no one player can through the use of their character's abilities consistently and completely hog the spotlight) and not so much as balance between PC and GM. :)
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Both players and DMs make mistakes. If you think that because you have been running games for 10 years or more I'm not going to call you out on a bad call. Guess again. I'm going to be polite and respectful. I'm still going to tell you after the game has eneded. Running and playing games for a long time does not make one suddenly immune to criticism or feedback.
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Both players and DMs make mistakes. If you think that because you have been running games for 10 years or more I'm not going to call you out on a bad call. Guess again. I'm going to be polite and respectful. I'm still going to tell you after the game has eneded. Running and playing games for a long time does not make one suddenly immune to criticism or feedback.
Tone can make a huge difference. That polite, respectful discussion after the game as ended is going to make me listen to you and consider making changes. Someone that has a hissy fit mid-game is more likely to end up uninvited next time around as they've pretty much proven to me they can't handle getting on and having fun without ruining it for everyone else, even if it's my mistake that caused it.
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No one who truly wishes to improve their craft wants that.
You would be surprised. It's rare but I have experienced both players and dms with god complexes. I like getting feedback. Espcialy if for whatever reason I ran a poor game. So those who want to get better will listen to feedback and criticism. As long as it's respectful and constructive. No one wants to listen to someone who is rude and whiny.
Tone can make a huge difference. That polite, respectful discussion after the game as ended is going to make me listen to you and consider making changes. Someone that has a hissy fit mid-game is more likely to end up uninvited next time around as they've pretty much proven to me they can't handle getting on and having fun without ruining it for everyone else, even if it's my mistake that caused it.
A proper respectful and polite tone is a given to me at least. Tell me any feedback as a DM. Or I will do the same as a player. Anything else is going to get you ignored or at most kicked out of the game. I do caution that if your going to boot a rude player out of a game. That the game not be held at that person place. As in turn chances are good he will kick you out. So one has to tread very carefully.
So, what do you all think? What would you do in this situation?
I would say you handled the situation 100% correct. You didn't rise to the challenge, you didn't break any friendships. You just called him out on bad behavior, got an apology, continued play.
Now I highly recommend you drop this and never bring it up again. I agree with Humphrey. the fact that this player is so engrossed in the game to throw a fit like that is a GOOD thing, it's much better then the 'yeah whatever... your the DM' apathy that it could have been. The fact that he apologized to get the game going again is even better.
Don't let this incident get in the way of a 15 year friendship.
You wouldn't let the player use the class? tell him why! That class is a plot point, and it would have hurt the story. It's really that simple, You couldn't tell him before... but now that she's there, you didn't want there to be two of them in one party...
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We can always find a new venue...
Easier said then done.
Unless your group is small you need a place than hold at least four people. With enough furniture and a table to run to seat everyone. A place with a bathroom and fairly accessable by public transport and by car. Relatively clean and safe as well. I like gaming. The most I'm willing to travel to and from a game is a hour. Perfect world means finding a new venue easily and quickly. We don't leave in a perfect world.
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I would say you handled the situation 100% correct. You didn't rise to the challenge, you didn't break any friendships. You just called him out on bad behavior, got an apology, continued play.
Now I highly recommend you drop this and never bring it up again. I agree with Humphrey. the fact that this player is so engrossed in the game to throw a fit like that is a GOOD thing, it's much better then the 'yeah whatever... your the DM' apathy that it could have been. The fact that he apologized to get the game going again is even better.
Don't let this incident get in the way of a 15 year friendship.
You wouldn't let the player use the class? tell him why! That class is a plot point, and it would have hurt the story. It's really that simple, You couldn't tell him before... but now that she's there, you didn't want there to be two of them in one party...
Agreed and seconded. The op handled it better than some who responded in the thread. Which first reaction was to boot the offending player out. In certain cases it is legimate to do so. The player was wrong and apologized. So unless he acts the same way again I see no reason to throw out the player. For a verbal outburst. I'm not saying just take any verbal abuse thrown your way. Neither should you just throw away a 15 year friendship because of what the player said either.
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We can always find a new venue...
Easier said then done.
Unless your group is small you need a place than hold at least four people. With enough furniture and a table to run to seat everyone. A place with a bathroom and fairly accessable by public transport and by car. Relatively clean and safe as well. I like gaming. The most I'm willing to travel to and from a game is a hour. Perfect world means finding a new venue easily and quickly. We don't leave in a perfect world.
True, but if the person who is providing the venue is an insufferable jerk, I'd rather game in cramped quarters then enter their house again.
EDIT 3: In fact, I can honestly say I've never said **** you or insulted a GM. I've said I find a house rule completely stupid and refused to play with said house rule, but I've never insulted the GM directly. So, by that respect, culpability of the GM in the situation means nothing to me because I do not see, as a player, any reason to say such things to the GM under any circumstances.
What I don't understand is "to the GM". I mean... do you see any reason to say such things to a player under any circumstances? The way I read this, it sounds as if the GM deserves some special treatment and you need to be more polite to him than to another player, the mum of the guy whose house you are playing in, or the guy who brings the pizza. That's what I don't understand. Sure, he should not be insulting you. But being a GM has exactly nothing to do with it. He should not insult you because you are his friend, and a rational human being. I couldn't care less if you were the GM, or the newcomer with a new PC playing with them for the first time.
EDIT 3: In fact, I can honestly say I've never said **** you or insulted a GM. I've said I find a house rule completely stupid and refused to play with said house rule, but I've never insulted the GM directly. So, by that respect, culpability of the GM in the situation means nothing to me because I do not see, as a player, any reason to say such things to the GM under any circumstances.What I don't understand is "to the GM". I mean... do you see any reason to say such things to a player under any circumstances? The way I read this, it sounds as if the GM deserves some special treatment and you need to be more polite to him than to another player, the mum of the guy whose house you are playing in, or the guy who brings the pizza. That's what I don't understand. Sure, he should not be insulting you. But being a GM has exactly nothing to do with it. He should not insult you because you are his friend, and a rational human being. I couldn't care less if you were the GM, or the newcomer with a new PC playing with them for the first time.
I already covered that above when Vivianne LaFlamme or whatever said that. Yes, I agree one should not say **** you to a GM or a player, but this thread was what would you do as a GM if a player said **** you toward you. The part you quoted was to the people that were implying that the GM is somehow maybe at fault for why the player said it. So, in this case since it's being said to the GM, that's where it matters. If it were being said to another player it would still be wrong, yes, but the quote is about GM culpability not mattering.
We just had another game tonight, so all is well. Just chiming in for the last time probably as pretty much I've learned what others would do, and learned a few other things in the process.
I've had people throw me birthday parties and get angry because I didn't say thank you or appreciate them enough for it... even though I didn't ask them to do it, and if they had asked me, I'd have told them not to do it.Hold the phone. You didn't say "thank you" when someone worked hard to throw you a birthday party? So let me see if I got this straight...someone went out of their way to do something very nice for you and you did not show any appreciation for it even in the form of a "thank you"? You realize that friends and relatives do things for each...
Birthday parties are strange things. I have friends who would quite literally punch me in the face if I threw them a surprise birthday party. Everyone's different when it comes to that, and I've learned to ask first.
I thought the OP was trying to understand why the player was upset and if they were over reacting or not...
I already covered that above when Vivianne LaFlamme or whatever said that. Yes, I agree one should not say **** you to a GM or a player, but this thread was what would you do as a GM if a player said **** you toward you.
you did fairly well. The fact you had a new session and everything went smooth is a proof of that :-D
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Birthday parties are strange things. I have friends who would quite literally punch me in the face if I threw them a surprise birthday party. Everyone's different when it comes to that, and I've learned to ask first.
I've had people throw me birthday parties and get angry because I didn't say thank you or appreciate them enough for it... even though I didn't ask them to do it, and if they had asked me, I'd have told them not to do it.Hold the phone. You didn't say "thank you" when someone worked hard to throw you a birthday party? So let me see if I got this straight...someone went out of their way to do something very nice for you and you did not show any appreciation for it even in the form of a "thank you"? You realize that friends and relatives do things for each...
Indeed. But I think it is incumbent upon people who deeply hate birthday parties being thrown in their honor to tell others in advance that they hate birthday parties since they are generally outliers rather than the norm. It is apparent that you were told by your friends well in advance that they did not like birthday parties. But if your friend did literally punch you in the face if you threw him a party and only afterward told you that he cannot stand parties, he would very much be in the wrong. Actually, anyone who would literally assault another person over what is generally considered to be a kind gesture is someone I would never want to have anything to do with in real life.