We just finished a campaign where one of my players had an incredibly tough dragon disciple - to the point where he seemed unbalanced in comparison to the rest of the party. There was no intent to break rules, but he may not have known all of them as well as he should. Also, I focused my energy on running the game rather than character rules.
So for our new campaing, I want to make sure we get off to a fair start for everyone. Can you guys help me make sure this Ninja is a fair build?
20 point buy - Human Ninja
STR - 10
Dex - 20 (+5)
Con - 12
int - 8
Wis - 12
Cha - 12
AC 16 = 10 (+6 Dex, +1 Dodge)
Feats
Armor Proficiency
Dodge
Simple Weapon Prof
Weapon Finesse
Deft Dodger
Ease of Faith
Poison Use
Sneak Attack 1d6
Skills as 9 include Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Thanks for the help.
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Build is incorrect for 2 reasons. Build with the 8 on int is 21 points he needs to subtract a point from one of his 10-12 stats. 2nd flaw is his skills. Skills for ninja is 8 + int + 1 from human. Since he has an 8 in int that is 8-1+1 = 8 not 9. The character is gonna be mediokur in out of combat situations because of his stat allocation. Also will have no damage until he gets an agile weapon. Also the fact that he not wearing armor is a concern he can easily gain 1-2 more points of ac with out cutting into the dex.
The Ninja may have Ninja as his favored class, giving himself another skill point. I'd probably go for the extra HP instead. Deft Dodger (+1 to Reflex Saves) suggests something of this line.
Your AC is calculated incorrectly though. 16 (+5 Dex, +1 Dodge).
The points are off by -1. He needs to subtract 1 point from any 12 or 10.
1st level is tough to account for either way. Not many character can manage to be OP during this level, as their HP is so finite, and weapon damage can easily overcome this in a single hit, just the same with monsters. A Wizard could get lucky, take a greatsword to the face, and make it out without a scratch, where a Barbarian could take a crit and be cut down past -Con with a lucky crit in one hit at this point.
What we're not seeing here is a planned build for later on in the game.
With a Con of 12 and a Wis of 12 you'll be very, very fragile - few hit points and weak saves for both fortitude and willpower. Spend at least one trait to buff one of those up a point, and drop dex to 18 so you can get Con 14. It'll also give you the extra points you need to make it actually legal (you've spend too much as it stands). Reflex is by far the least important save, AND your only good save, so don't bother boosting that.
We just finished a campaign where one of my players had an incredibly tough dragon disciple - to the point where he seemed unbalanced in comparison to the rest of the party. There was no intent to break rules, but he may not have known all of them as well as he should. Also, I focused my energy on running the game rather than character rules.
So for our new campaing, I want to make sure we get off to a fair start for everyone. Can you guys help me make sure this Ninja is a fair build?
20 point buy - Human Ninja
STR - 10
Dex - 20 (+5)
Con - 12
int - 8
Wis - 12
Cha - 12AC 16 = 10 (+6 Dex, +1 Dodge)
Feats
Armor Proficiency
Dodge
Simple Weapon Prof
Weapon FinesseDeft Dodger
Ease of FaithPoison Use
Sneak Attack 1d6Skills as 9 include Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Thanks for the help.
Basically if he went the insane strength build that is all natural attacks, which is common with Dragon Disciples then he was built to be a dragon. Breath Power! *power slide*
Ninja, on the other hand, are not quite so straight forward.
As a Ninja he is going to have a considerably different time. Mediocre AC, low HP (comparatively to the DD), and his damage comes from attacking without being seen (sneak attack).
He is going to use the invisibility power as much as possible. At level 10 or so he can use the ki power that gives him IMPROVED INVISIBILITY and then he becomes the damage god that Ninja were supposed to be. This isn't a exploit, or anything inbalanced, it is just how Ninja work and they are relatively crap until then since they are, after all, rogues.
The problem is that around the time they gain Improved Invis, they will also face save or die rolls against BOTH their weak saves pretty much daily, if not most fights. Even a simple Hold Monster is pretty much lethal to a rogue or ninja. I'd invest in a set of very lucky dice and the best cloak or resistance you can find - and even then you will likely fail more than half of the spell saves that matter. Finding an item that grants a resistance bonus in a different slot would be good, since that would allow for a cloak of displacement.
Either way, don't start with Con 12 and Wis 12. That Dex 20 may sound cool, but it's not going to keep you alive. You could even consider a dwarf ninja. Yes, they have a charisma penalty and no dex bonus, but with the Glory of Old trait your saves will be decent, and if you are still in trouble you could even consider the Steel Soul feat.
The problem is that around the time they gain Improved Invis, they will also face save or die rolls against BOTH their weak saves pretty much daily, if not most fights. Even a simple Hold Monster is pretty much lethal to a rogue or ninja. I'd invest in a set of very lucky dice and the best cloak or resistance you can find - and even then you will likely fail more than half of the spell saves that matter. Finding an item that grants a resistance bonus in a different slot would be good, since that would allow for a cloak of displacement.
Either way, don't start with Con 12 and Wis 12. That Dex 20 may sound cool, but it's not going to keep you alive. You could even consider a dwarf ninja. Yes, they have a charisma penalty and no dex bonus, but with the Glory of Old trait your saves will be decent, and if you are still in trouble you could even consider the Steel Soul feat.
Ring of Invisibility is more important than anything in existence for a Ninja or Rogue. Use it to have permanent invisibility. Enemies cannot target something they cannot see, and if that caster casts hold monster on a character that he cannot see then he is breaking the rules as far as I know.
Also, its a Ninja. If it survives long enough to be able to use the improved invisibility ki power then it is either really sneaky or really conservative with what it does.
Also, advice the Ninja to play a character that can gain pounce.
For added awesome he can take one dip in Summoner(Synthesist), gain pounce and the Arms evolution. Now he not only can max out his Wisdom and Cha (for maximum will-power and Ki) but also be able to use his weapons. For one additional ki point, perhaps he buys Extra Evolution two times, he can have two tentacle attacks as well for a grand total of his light melee weapons (probably Wakisashi) and his bite and tentacles as natural attacks.
So at higher levels he Stabs, Stabs, Stabs, Stabs, Stabs, Stabs, Bites, Tentacles, Tentacles. Its just like my Japanese Animes!
To go even better the Ninja could do the above but with Extra evolution he could take Arms twice, hence making it so he qualifies for multi-weapon fighting, so he could theoretically go
Stab(1), Stab(2), Stab(3), Stab(4),
Stab((1)-5), Stab((2)-5), Stab((3)-5), Stab(4)-5),
Stab((1)-10), Stab((2)-10), Stab((3)-10), Stab(4)-10),
Bite((-5), Tentacle((1)-5), Tentacle((2)-5)
I am assuming that since Multiweapon Fighting replaces two-weapon fighting for creatures with more than 2 arms it stacks with the two-weapon fighting line, so improved and greater two weapon fighting are essentially improved and greater multiweapon fighting but paizo didn't want to make redundant feats.
One issue with the Ninja's Greater Invisibility is that by the time you get it, how far are you from regularly facing things that can just negate it via the senses listed in their statblock? That really hurts considering how much Ninja needs it if he wants to not get his ass kicked.
As far as the topic creator's question goes, you can't judge anything based on a low level build, but as others have said it's not looking like it's going to be anything but mediocre based on the stat array. I would suggest asking the player to provide you with his grand design (if he's the type that does that ahead of time).
To be honest pretty much any character in the hands of someone who knows how to build it is going to be unbalanced.
I have made Warriors that are more powerful than some of my friends Fighters all because I know what to do. *shrugs*
Knowledge is power here, sort of like Dark Souls, but in a different way.
In my campaign (we've been playing 6ish months) I have a power player with a super optimised level 4, two weapon, finesse based ninja. When he flanks he tends to hit on a roll of 2 (roughly +14 or +16 on his attack roll) doing 1d4+2d6+2, 1d4+2d6+1 with 20 AC. With his Ki points he's able to turn invisible 4 times a day as a swift but even as hard as he is optimised, he easily under performs compared to the rest of the party. (Druid, monk, wizard, barbarian, cleric).
My personal experience with the ninja tells me he really won't be an issue, especially with a stat array like that. Ninjas are hyper powered Rogues but still suffer from being easily shut down like other rogues. When he flanks he'll hit hard but without flanking he'll spend most of the game useless.