I wouldn't be surprised if this was intended. The snakeskin tunic still have a big advantage over other armors. In fact, think of it more like an item/armor. Think about this hypothetical situation:
It's Harsk's turn. He has been helping out other character at other locations with their combat checks, so he only has 3 cards in his hand, Heavy Crossbow, Snakeskin Tunic and an Archer ally. He encounters a bane that deals 1d4-1 damage to him before the encounter and 1 poison damage to him after the encounter. Depending on how that 1d4 roll turns out Harsk has some options:
1. If the 1d4-1 would result in discarding his hand, Harsk can use the snakeskin tunic so that he'll still have a weapon to encounter the bane he's facing.
2. If the 1d4-1 results in a 0 or 1, Harsk can discard the Archer (or nothing on a 0 result). Now Harsk is free to use his Snakeskin Tunic to aid his combat check. Granted he won't be able to use if if he fails the check, but Harsk isn't planning on failing.
3. Harsk is now allowed to use the Snakeskin Tunic (if he still has it) to reduce the after the encounter damage from the bane's card power since the "Apply any effects that happen after the encounter" is a separate step in the encounter sequence and therefore resets the rule about 1 card of each type by each player.
Regardless of which he chooses, he potentially used the Snakeskin Tunic twice.
Armors like this give you a reason to keep two armors in your hand. Pair this with a shield in his hand and he can use the shield if he fails the combat check.
Hawkmoon, as it stands now, you can't do that.
You have to activate the Dex ability of Snakeskin Tunic during the check, but damage is checked after that.
However, the way shields are worded ("Reveal this card to reduce Combat damage dealt to you by 2. If you are proficient with light armors, you may play another armor on this check.") it seems you aren't able to play the Armor first then the Shield, since the shield is the ability that gives you the ability to play another armor on the check. You've already played the armor on the check at this time, so you can't retroactively add the "play another armor" slot to be able to play the shield. Unless it was errata'd, it's not like Arcane Armor.
If it was like Arcane Armor, it should be worded "If you have Light Armor proficiency, you may play this card even if you played another armor on the check." - this actually changes the card slightly, so you'll have to find some way to fit the word "one" in the wording.
Does the RAW wording on this card make sense in terms of what was probably intended (1 armor, 1 shield)? No. But the original wording wasn't either, and you could play 3 shields one after another anyway.
I think there's a timing discrepancy here that hopefully gets resolved.
I think zeroth_hour mostly disagreeing that if you used the Snakeskin Tunic to add to Harsk's dexterity in the combat, you couldn't use the shield on the failed combat damage, which I mentioned at the end of my post when I recommended pairing it with a shield. I don't think he disagreed that the Snakeskin Tunic could take the "after the encounter" damage if you used it for the dex bonus on the combat check.
But I'd still argue that the shield can be used to reduce the damage for failing the combat check in my hypothetical situation. Not only does it make sense, but I'd say that the word "another" doesn't necessarily imply a relationship of time. I'm aware of the discussion about infinite shields. But I don't think that my understanding conflicts with that idea. Basically the proficiency for light armor with the shield is saying "this doesn't count as your 1 armor for this check".
I could be wrong, and its a bit of a murky gray area. So it would be helpful if someone with authority could weigh in and settle this point:
If you are playing a shield, do you have to play the "another armor" after playing the shield or can it be played prior to playing the shield?
Technically, you have to play the "another armor" second. But I wouldn't leap across the table if you did it the other way.
(The online version of the game Ascension uses "play or have played," which is a little clunky for my tastes. Also, I play far too much Ascension.)
Technically, you have to play the "another armor" second. But I wouldn't leap across the table if you did it the other way.
(The online version of the game Ascension uses "play or have played," which is a little clunky for my tastes. Also, I play far too much Ascension.)
Thanks for the response. Would you leap across the table if I played Snakeskin Tunic for the dex add on to combat and then if I failed the combat played a shield to reduce the damage? (Its slightly more specific than simply playing two armors to reduce damage.)
Also, I'm not sure you are aware of this but I play at a rather large table. You'd better have at least a plus 2 bonus to your acrobatics checks if you are going to pull off this leaping stunt.
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Would you leap across the table if I played Snakeskin Tunic for the dex add on to combat and then if I failed the combat played a shield to reduce the damage? (Its slightly more specific than simply playing two armors to reduce damage.)
Also, I'm not sure you are aware of this but I play at a rather large table. You'd better have at least a plus 2 bonus to your acrobatics checks if you are going to pull off this leaping stunt.
If you did that, I would indeed leap over the table, after the sawing the legs out from under your table.
Thanks again Mike. So zeroth_hour was correct about not being able to play a shield after failing the combat check if you used snakeskin tunic to help with the dexterity on that combat check.
We've also all learned that if you play with Mike and plan to stretch the rules of his game, make sure you are playing on a large table with reinforced steel legs or be prepared to hire a carpenter after the game.
I think both pieces of information are equally useful to us.
And Snakeskin Tunic is still awesome.
Under the current rules, if you use this armor for its dex bonus, you cannot also use it to mitigated any damage recieved from failing that check. Is this really what you intended. I have a suggestion for a change to the card:
"If you use this card for the dex bonus, you may also use it to reduce damage received during the same check. You may not use any other armor, except for a shield."
If you use the dex bonus in combat but still fail the check, you have in effect already reduced the damage dealt to you by one.
To clarify:
You can reuse the same armor for different parts of the encountering a card sequence (page 10 of the rulebook). So Snakeskin Tunic can be used for a Dexterity bonus on the combat check. It can NOT be re-used to reduce combat damage if the check is failed because that is still part of the same step in the sequence. But if a monster says it also deals 1 poison damage to you after the encounter, you can use Snakeskin Tunic to reduce that damage because after the encounter effects are another step in the sequence.
A shield does not HAVE to be used with other armors, but it allows you to use multiple armors (useful if there is a lot of damage being dealt). In order to do so, you have to play the shield first, then play the other armor. So...
Harks encounters a monster that deals 1 combat damage before the check and requires combat 10 THEN combat 12 and also deals 1 poison damage
ENCOUNTERING A CARD
STEP: EVADE THE CARD (OPTIONAL)
Harsk can't do this.
STEP: APPLY ANY EFFECTS THAT HAPPEN BEFORE THE ENCOUNTER
The monster deals 1 combat damage. Harks uses a shield to reduce that damage.
STEP: ATTEMPT THE CHECK
He plays Snakeskin Tunic to increase his dexterity for the combat 10 check with his crossbow. He rolls a 12. He is happy.
STEP: ATTEMPT THE NEXT CHECK, IF NEEDED
He plays Snakeskin Tunic to increase his dexterity for the combat 12 check with his crossbow. He rolls an 11. Harsk can not reduce this damage because he's already played his 1 armor and a shield can't be used because he'd have to play it first. He is sad.
STEP: APPLY ANY EFFECTS THAT HAPPEN AFTER THE ENCOUNTER, IF NEEDED
The monster deals 1 poison damage to Harsk. He plays Snakeskin Tunic to reduce that damage. It is a different step in the sequence, so he can use any type of card again.
RESOLVE THE ENCOUNTER
The monster is undefeated, so it is shuffled back into the location deck whence is came.
I hope that clears up the confusion.
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Happy to help (sorry I contributed to the confusion in the first place).
Also, looking through the armor card with this new understanding about shields in mind, Spiny Shield can be used in the following way:
Harks encounters a monster that deals 2 combat damage before the encounter and requires combat 10 THEN combat 12 and also deals 1 poison damage after the encounter.
ENCOUNTERING A CARD
STEP: EVADE THE CARD (OPTIONAL)
Harsk can't do this.
STEP: APPLY ANY EFFECTS THAT HAPPEN BEFORE THE ENCOUNTER
The monster deals 2 combat damage. Harks reveals Spiny Shield to reduce that damage.
STEP: ATTEMPT THE CHECK
He reveals Snakeskin Tunic to increase his dexterity for the combat 10 check with his Deathbane Light Crossbow. He can play armor again because this is another step in the "encountering a card" sequence. He rolls an 8. He is sad. He can not reduce this damage with an armor card because he has already played his 1 armor card for this check and to play a shield he would have had to play it before the "other" armor. He could use an item to reduce the damage though.
STEP: ATTEMPT THE NEXT CHECK, IF NEEDED
This time, he discards Spiny Shield then reveals Snakeskin Tunic to add 1d4 to his ranged combat check and increase his dexterity for the combat 12 check with his Deathbane Light Crossbow. He can play armor again because its a different step in the "encountering a card sequence" and he can play the Spiny Shield and the Snakeskin Tunic together because he played the shield first. He rolls a 12. Harsk is happy he won't take any more damage, though is beginning to question why his rolls are so low if he is playing so many cards. He makes a note to have his dice analyzed for proper balance between all the sides.
STEP: APPLY ANY EFFECTS THAT HAPPEN AFTER THE ENCOUNTER, IF NEEDED
The monster deals 1 poison damage to Harsk. He recharges Snakeskin Tunic to reduce that damage. It is a different step in the sequence, so he can use any type of card again.
RESOLVE THE ENCOUNTER
The monster is undefeated, so it is shuffled back into the location deck whence is came.
Hawkmoon is correct, I meant the combat check damage.
Mike, I don't think I play enough Ascension, at least enough to understand the design principles involved (it is a very nicely designed game.)
Everyone should play more Ascension, except me who should probably play slightly less.
so how would this work in conjunction with Merisel's sneak attack ability? you don't count as playing a card when you recharge/discard, but could you reveal to add 1 to a check, then recharge/discard the armor to get 1d6/2d6? we had this situation on Saturday, and we thought that it would work after we scratched our heads at it a bit.
OH, and let me say that I LOVE the flood scenario in hook mountain. extremely well done!
Yes, Merisiel could reveal the Snakeskin Tunic for the dexterity bonus and then recharge it or discard it for her "sneak attack" power. This is because:
A. Revealing a card is showing it and putting it right back in her hand. So when she goes to recharge/discard a card for her power, it is in her hand and available.
B. Her power does not activate the card she recharges/discards, so it doesn't count as playing a card of that type. So if she does this with the Snakeskin Tunic she isn't playing an armor, she's playing her power. So she didn't violate the rule about 1 card of each type on the encountering a card sequence. But she also doesn't get any of the benefits that Snakeskin Tunic offers for recharge/discard (so no damage reduction).
Any time a power has a character do something with "a card" to activate their power (i.e. Lini, Lem, Harsk, Merisiel, Seoni, Kyra for example) the card they use, once it is verified to meet the requirements to be used in their power, should be considered a blank card devoid of attributes or powers of any kind. You do everything you power tells you to do and can do nothing the card tells you to do. (For example Lini can't attempt a divine check to recharge a spell she discarded to use her power to roll 1d10 for strength. She also can't discard an animal ally to roll the 1d10 and say "But my power says I get to recharge an animal ally." Because her power doesn't treat the card like an animal ally, it treats it like a blank card.)
Though Merisiel should really want to hang on to the Snakeskin Tunic for virtually the whole scenario, so I hope this combat check was essentially the final turn of the game or otherwise vitally necessary for your victory.
@Hawkmoon269 - just wanted to say that your posts in this thread are wonderfully clear. Great work!