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I've seen it commented on here several times that flying creatures can only fly with a light load. I can't find an actual rule that would make it so. Not being able to fly in medium or heavy armor is a property of barding, not the flight ability. I found nothing under universal monster rules, nothing under they Fly skill, Encumbrance (Other Rules), or the Movement section of Combat.
This is the general case of the question: "Can a non-halfling use a dire bat as an effective mount?" Or to phrase it another way, "Is a fiendish dire bat a cool mount choice for an NPC antipaladin?"
Just FYI, if you intend to cite the rule that a medium or heavy load restricts abilities as per armor, be prepared to link to a FAQ answer or dev response. As noted above, the inability to fly in medium or heavy barding is an equipment rule, not an encumbrance rule.
Encumbrance by Weight: If you want to determine whether your character's gear is heavy enough to slow him down more than his armor already does, total the weight of all the character's items, including armor, weapons, and gear. Compare this total to the character's Strength on Table: Carrying Capacity. Depending on the character's carrying capacity, he or she may be carrying a light, medium, or heavy load. Like armor, a character's load affects his maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, carries a check penalty (which works like an armor check penalty), reduces the character's speed, and affects how fast the character can run, as shown on Table: Encumbrance Effects. A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor. Carrying a light load does not encumber a character.
The statement stands alone. If you're encumbered, you're "wearing armor" for that purpose.
Okay, I thought I was clear, but let me try this again. I don't agree with that reasoning. Flight is not a skill or ability that is restricted by armor. Barding is a piece of equipment that restricts flight. The rules don't actually say what you're trying to have them say. If there is an official clarification, please link that for me. Otherwise, I am looking for a rule.
Feel free to FAQ it then, unless you've already made up your mind.
Technically, that only says "flying mounts". So by the line of reasoning that begets, a griffon could fly clutching a morbidly obese dwarf, but not while the dwarf rides it.
No, I don't buy that being a mount magically subjects you to worse restrictions than, say, carrying something on one claw.
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Are Angel Wings intended to be better than most creatures' ability to fly? Hmm.
I'm inclined to think that, yes, somehow Tubbo the Kilodwarf is heavier on a griffon's back than in its claws.
Q: Can a non-mounted, unarmored creature fly while encumbered with a medium or heavy load?
In this scenario, I am picturing an animal wearing no barding. Just a regular old fiendish dire bat.
how about an empyreal pali with beast rider feat, riding a triceratops with impaling charge?
What happens then?
This is making me want to play a Dwarf with an Adamantine Fullplate with a heavy load that laughs at flying monsters when they try to snatch him up.
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We really doing this again?
Here is a quote from a previous post of mine in a similar thread:
Wow, this keeps coming up over and over.
Back in 3.5 there was a rule limiting flying creatures to a light load. That rule was removed in PF (intentionally or not, we do not know).
The ONLY remnant restricting fliers is the barding rule.
Barding is NOT the same thing as encumbrance. For that matter, Barding is not the same thing as armor. A Flying creature can wear heavy armor. It cannot wear heavy barding.
To put this another way:
1) Barding is a subset of Armor.
2) Barding applies to mounts only.
3) Barding does not apply to creatures which are not mounts. If a wolf is used as a mount, it wears barding (if it is trained for it). It a wolf is not used as a mount, it wears armor (if it is trained for it).
4) Barding has a restriction. That does not mean Armor has the restriction.Now, some people try to draw a line between Barding and the following statement:
A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor.The flaw in that is that you can draw a line from encumbrance to armor. But you cannot draw a line from armor to barding since barding is a subset of armor.
Diagram:
Barding -> Armor
Encumbrance -> ArmorPut together you get:
Barding -> Armor <- Encumbrance.You do NOT get:
Barding -> Armor -> Encumbrance
Barding <- Armor <- EncumbranceSummary:
Fliers can wear Medium or Heavy armor and be medium or heavy encumbered and still fly (at reduced speed). The rules that prevented this are part of 3.5 and not Pathfinder.
Fliers cannot wear Medium or Heavy Barding and stay flying.If you wish, you can houserule the 3.5 rules back into the game. :)
- Gauss
That's kind of what I thought, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus.
Have the antipaladin use a Reduce person scroll or magic item...or use Animal Growth on the bat. Problem solved.
So.... you are telling us that a single normal bee would be able to lift a giant because encumbrance/armor rules don't apply to flying in Pathfinder rules?
In general you need to be one size smaller then your mount (as per the mount rules).
And I'd say that lifting a creature ("kidnapping style") requires a successful grapple (even if the creature is willing) to show that you get a good grip on that which you want to carry away (you are basically rolling grapple vs gravity).
With just these two, you limit quite a bit of nonsense. ;-)
Kyoni,
People are stating that a creature cannot fly while wearing medium or heavy armor or while medium or heavily encumbered. This is incorrect because there is no rule stating that (there was in 3.5). There IS a rule stating that a mount wearing Medium or Heavy barding cannot fly. Barding is a subset of Armor that is only worn by mounts and that rule does not apply to armor or encumbrance as a whole.
The above does not in any way alter the normal encumbrance rules. A diminutive creature with a 1 strength would have a Lift capacity of 5 pounds. It could not lift a most things, including, your Giant.
RJGrady, that may be because it is a significant departure from 3.5 rules and does not make 'logical' sense to people.
Personally, I would houserule out the Medium/Heavy barding rule. Cutting the rest while retaining that seems to be an oversight.
However, if I were to hazard a guess as to the logic of it I would say the logic might be:
Barding is more restrictive than regular armor. The barding has to not only accommodate the movement of the mount but also the movement and placement of the rider. This restricts the mount's ability to fly.
Again, the above paragraph is just a possible rationale for the rule.
I don't use the SRD (or even the PRD much) as I prefer the actual books (or searchable PDFs). However, the following quotes may help you narrow down where things are in the SRD.
If the PCs undertake more wilderness adventures than dungeon treks, mounts may be integral parts of the party, and you may face requests for mounts other than horses. Druids and rangers may attract animal companions big enough to act as mounts. Paladins may desire something a bit tougher than their typical heavy warhorse or warpony.
Suitable Mounts: You have the final decision on what is or is not a suitable mount. At its most basic level, a mount should have the following characteristics:
• Able and willing to carry its rider in a typical fashion. (A camel is able and willing. A tiger might be capable but may not be willing. A giant might be willing but not truly able.)
• At least one size category larger than the character. Also, a flying mount can carry no more than a light load aloft.
• The mount’s Challenge Rating should be no more than 3 less than the rider’s character level. If the mount can fly, its Challenge Rating should be no more than 4 less than the rider’s character level.
The accompanying tables (one for Medium riders, one for Small riders) provide basic characteristics of creatures that can be used as mounts.
Movement Modes: Creatures may have modes of movement other than walking and running. These are natural, not magical, unless specifically noted in a monster description.
Burrow: A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.
Climb: A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 (see Checks without Rolls, page 65 of the Player’s Handbook), even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb (see the Climb skill, page 69 of the Player’s Handbook), it moves at double the given climb speed (or its base land speed, whichever is lower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Creatures cannot run while climbing. A creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature.
Fly: A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load; see Carrying Capacity, page 161 of the Player’s Handbook. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:
—Perfect: The creature can perform almost any aerial maneuver it wishes. It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground.
—Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability.
—Average: The creature can fly as adroitly as a small bird.
—Poor: The creature flies as well as a very large bird.
—Clumsy: The creature can barely maneuver at all.
A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.
For more information, see Tactical Aerial Movement, page 20 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
Swim: A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its swim speed without making Swim checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. The creature can always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. The creature can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.
MOUNTS AND RELATED GEAR
Horses and other mounts let you travel faster and more easily.
Barding, Medium Creature and Large Creature: Barding is a type of armor that covers the head, neck, chest, body, and possibly legs of a horse or other mount. Barding made of medium or heavy armor provides better protection than light barding, but at the expense of speed. Barding can be made of any of the armor types found on Table 7–6: Armor and Shields.
Armor for a horse (a Large nonhumanoid creature) costs four times as much as armor for a human (a Medium humanoid creature) and also weighs twice as much as the armor found on Table 7–6 (see Armor for Unusual Creatures, page 123). If the barding is for a pony or other Medium mount, the cost is only double, and the weight is the same as for Medium armor worn by a humanoid.
Medium or heavy barding slows a mount that wears it, as shown on the table below.
———— Base Speed —––——
Barding (40 ft.) (50 ft.) (60 ft.)
Medium 30 ft. 35 ft. 40 ft.
Heavy 30 ft.1 35 ft.1 40 ft.1
1 A mount wearing heavy armor moves at only triple its normal speed when running instead of quadruple.
Flying mounts can’t fly in medium or heavy barding.
Barded animals require special attention. You must take care to prevent chafing and sores caused by the armor. The armor must be removed at night and ideally should not be put on the mount except to prepare for a battle. Removing and fitting barding takes five times as long as the figures given on Table 7–7: Donning Armor. A barded animal cannot be used to carry any load other than the rider and normal saddlebags. Because of this limitation, a mounted warrior often leads a second mount loaded with gear and supplies.
My question with the Armor is different from Barding is; why wear barding if my mount can apparently wear armor. If I recall, barding is ALSO more expensive, with only drawbacks.
Issac Daneil,
Barding is not more expensive. It is exactly the same price as Armor (for the same creature). According to Table 6-8 "Armor For Unusual Creatures" on CRB p153 Large armor for a non-humanoid costs 4x as much and weighs 2x as much.
Now we compare that to Barding:
For a large mount it costs 4x as much and weighs 2x as much.
The difference between Armor and Barding is in semantics: Is the creature a mount? If so, it is Barding.
It is a pointless difference that should have been removed from PF in the conversion from 3.5. I feel it was overlooked when they simplified the flying rules.
The difference between Armor and Barding only matters for flying mounts. It doesn't matter for anything else.
get yourself a flying dinosaur and use the rules here
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor#TOC-Armor-for-Unusual-Creat ures