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Lissala is currently represented as Lawful Evil on the alignment chart.
Now, one of the things I've noticed is that Xin apparently brought the goddess to prominence in Thassilon, and either he discovered her himself (possible considering his unique arcane power, which was incredibly significant even for an Azlanter) or she was a goddess of Azlant whom he worshiped exclusively and made hers his religion, etc.
Now, here's my thing: based on Xin's relationship with Lissala, along with the seven virtues of rule that she passed on to him, I would be more quick to assume that she was more likely a Lawful Neutral deity who happened to be worshiped by more tyrannical types. Xin himself certainly seems to be a lawful neutral man (at lest at first) and since it was Lissala who passed on these secrets to one she thought worthy, it could certainly be that she was Lawful Neutral, a deity who believed in society and advancing it.
Her faith appears to have been greatly perverted following Xin's death however, and would certainly explain why she simply said F**k it and split around the time of earthfall. What had once been virtues became rewards, what once had been hard work became decadence. These things considered, it would make more sense to me for her to be lawful neutral rather than lawful evil.
Abadar himself is a lawful neutral deity who believes in advancing society no matter the cost, which in some ways makes me think he would think slavery is a necessary evil in some cases. Likewise, Lissala, from everything I've read about her, seems to believe more in knowledge, hard work, self sacrifice etc were noble in and of themselves. That just doesn't jive with a lawful evil deity. Evil deities have a tendency towards selfishness, and the tenets of Lissala's worship never really came across as that.
Don't get me wrong. Ancient Azlant was not a place of good and wholesome gods. Demon worship was incredibly common. I get that. And it's entirely possible that Lissala actually was a lesser god who manipulated a good man in order to gain prominence in an empire and then showed her followers the true rewards of her faith: The Seven Sins of the Soul. Now, that's possible, but I find it a bit far fetched that she would go that out of her way. Then again, who knows.
However, I can't help feel that Lissala should be neutral, not evil. She's worshiped by tyrants then and now, yes. But so is Abadar. And I still have this nagging feeling that the virtues of rule were her original intention, not the perversion that the Runelords introduced.
Besides that, I wonder if she's really as gone as her avatar would believe. Clerics still get powers from her worship, so it's not like she's not granting rewards for faith. What do you guys think?
Wow, nice write-up and I agree completely. In all the research done for running this campaign I came to the exact same conclusion, as a point of view. Throughout the game enough has been learned by the player characters through research that they are coming to the same conclusion – that today her cultists are evil and misguided fools who only want to commit evil acts they think will bring her back. But that back in the day, the initial guidance she gave Xin was genuine to build Thassalon.
Of course, you’re right it could have been her infiltrating the empire to ruin it but…why? Anyway it’s become even more fun in my game as I have a cleric of the Empyreal lords who after seeing images is convinced the poor/confused/lonely herald of Lisalla is actually a fallen angel and wants seeks to redeem her. Ah the fun player research can bring.
Thank God someone agrees with me on this.
I thought I was the only one who thought this way.
It's interesting to me overall that her character as a goddess would choose to leave Golarion. I personally don't think she's dead, as some things have stated, rather at this point she's abstaining from actively participating in mortal affairs as she once did, seeing how that panned out.
We must prove ourselves worthy of Lissala if we wish her to return to our world. The excess and corruption of the late empire led her to abandon us just as we abandoned her. I have rejected Krune and his perversions. You too can work to bring Lissala's true teachings and Xin's true vision back to Golarion.
It's why I wished there was more to the end of the book about continuing the adventure if Xin wins rather than simply it being what it was. S'all good tho either way.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
There are a couple of older threads on this, and most posters in them (including me) came to a similar conclusion. However, word of god from James Jacobs is that Lissala was intended from the start to be an evil adversary for PCs.
Paizo isn't exactly unhappy that players are using their own interpretations of her, but don't expect any future material to justify it either.
Word of God might be that, but the thing is, her behavior with Xin doesn't necessarily state her as being so. That's all really. You have Xin worshiping her in one form, and he's arguably her most gifted and greatest of worshipers, and then you have the Rune Giants and Rune Lords worshiping her in another form, similar but more debased. Now, perhaps that was her most pure of forms, how she was meant to be worshiped, in that vile manner. There is no doubt that the Rune Lords were among her most blessed of servants, among them Krune the Runelord of Sloth.
I wonder if it's possible that her worshipers corrupted her in some way, that maybe she shifted alignment from LN to LE. I wonder if Xin succeeded in Shattered Star, if he became the immortal Emperor, would he bring New Thassilon back to the arms of Lissala or turn instead to a new and/or different entity?
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My first blush when I started reading into the Virtues had me toying with the notion she may have been good. Then, I saw the strict hierarchical nature of her church and figured that, no, she wasn't good, per se. But, as you say, she wasn't necessarily evil either. Strictness is not evil. Nowhere did I see mandates to kill subordinates who stepped out of line or any such hallmarks of a cruel, corrupt society.
I appreciate her place in the narrative even if it is largely unspoken. But, I also see Xin back in his hay day when he was still full of naivety in entrusting others to rule so he could focus on other things and to civilize all that he saw as fundamentally a good guy. He may be neutral alignment wise but he sought to diminish ignorance and raise up those who actually were little better than apes at that time in history.
The story of Xin is a tale of paradise lost.
I wouldn't say Xin was necessarily naive. At first he was, yes, as well as a total idealist, and his ideals were good and selfless. Even when he became Chaotic Neutral, I still see him as going to heaven when he he was finally judged because he made an attempt to raise people up.
However, when you read the last AP and see the visions, it's easy to see that the other Runelords did manipulate him more than a bit. As powerful as he was, and damn was he powerful and inventive, 7 other powerful wizards combining their might could definitely sway his opinion and mood.
Off topic but still interesting:
That's why in this game we're working on, New Thassilon has risen (to a degree), and the previous PC's are now generals in Xin's army, themselves a combination of Inevitable technology, Clockwork, and spirit energy. Xin himself is now mythic levels and his armies have conquered a good chunk of Varisia. However, now his concern is the Runelords themselves and is hiring adventurers, paying a kings ransom, for them to go all Raiders of the Lost Ark and find the Runelords tombs, etc, eventually leading the PC's to gain mythic levels themselves through various means.
However, that's for the later third of the adventure. First chunk of it deals with Molthune and that nation's expansion and growing military power thanks to their ranks swelling with Hobgoblins. Even one Hobgoblin has been promoted to the rank of General by the time the game world starts. His plans for invasion are two-fold: punish Nirmathas for resisting for so long and eventually take Isger and even expand across the big lake Encarthan into Razmiran. His plans for punishing Nirmathas include moving a ton of Goblins, Bugbears, and Ogres on a massive forced migration, ala trail of tears, from Isger and flood the forest with them. Then, he plans on burning it all down. My PC for that game is going to be a Hobgoblin Fell Rider. Totally badass.
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