Overall flaw in XP VS GOLD when leveling?


Advice


When I was building modules for my friend I used a point system that essentially went by the amount of gold each character should get by the time they reach the next level. It took the current level's starting gold, subtracted that from the next level's starting gold, and that was the amount of treasure the PCs would find on their journey from current level to next level.

I am thinking of discontinuing this.
Here is why:

XP and gold to level up to next
KEY:
To go from current level to next level:(total xp gained to hit next level/total gold gained if all encounters are CR [current level] encounters)_XP for current level encounter/gold awarded by current level encounter
Level 1:_(8,000_______/5,200)_______400___/260
Level 2:_(12,000______/11,000)______600___/550
Level 3:_(24,000______/24,000)______800___/800
Level 4:_(36,000______/34,500)______1200__/1150
Level 5:_(56,000______/54,250)______1600__/1550
Level 6:_(84,000______/70,000)______2400__/2000
Level 7:_(120,000_____/97,500)______3200__/2600
Level 8:_(180,000_____/125,625)_____4800__/3350
Level 9:_(240,000_____/159,375)_____6400__/4250
Level 10:(380,000_____/215,729)_____9600__/5450
Level 11:(500,000_____/273,437)_____12800_/7000
Level 12:(760,000_____/356,250)_____19200_/9000
Level 13:(1,020,000___/462,187)_____25600_/11600
Level 14:(1,520,000___/593,750)_____38400_/15000
Level 15:(2,040,000___/776,953)_____51200_/19500
Level 16:(3,160,000___/1,028,645)___76800_/25000
Level 17:(4,040,000___/1,262,500)___102400/32000
Level 18:(6,160,000___/1,644,270)___153600/41000
Level 19:(8,240,000___/2,132,421)___204800/53000

Starting gold for level 20 = 880,000gp.
Gold gained if leveled from 1 to 20 normally = 2,336,898gp
Gold gained if leveled from 1 to 20 normally and sold all items at 1/2 value = 1,168,449gp

As you can see it is FAR more profitable, even at half value, to have characters revived, or to play from low level to high.

You could say that this is the reason why creating a new character is a punishment: you lose gold overall. Depending on the level it is either a lot of gold or a little, and under a certain level you actually gain gold, but that doesn't last for long.

All of the gear the PC acquired over its lifetime should be lost when the PC dies if the PC brings in a new character.

This punishes bringing in new characters, but only in that the new character doesn't have the extra gold that the old character had.

What do you guys think about this observation? Now that I have seen what it entails I am actually kind of interested to use it, and unbind the gold of each character--meaning they can pool gold from encounters to buy things for specific characters--so that if they need to they can have the freedom to achieve personal and group goals.


So I used to use a point system for this, but I have found that it is FAR more rewarding to PCs to drop treasure for them to sell at half value. This highly encourages them to stick with the same characters.

Here is why:
KEY:
A = Current Level
B = Multiplier of everything sold at half value
C = Multiplier of everything sold at full value
D = Starting gold
E = Acquired Gold Half Value
F = acquired gold full value
G = To go from current level to next level
H = total xp gained to hit next level
I = total gold gained if all encounters are CR [current level] encounters
J = XP for current level encounter
K = gold awarded by current level encounter

A) [B]/[C](D____/E___/F)_____G:_(H______/I)______J___/K
01) _______________________________________________Level 01:(8,000_______/5,200)_______400___/260

02) [0.7]/[1.3](1,000____/650_________/1,300)______Level 02:(12,000______/11,000)______600___/550

03) [0.7]/[1.4](3,000____/2,025_______/4,050)______Level 03:(24,000______/24,000)______800___/800

04) [0.8]/[1.7](6,000____/5,025_______/10,050)_____Level 04:(36,000______/34,500)______1200__/1150

05) [0.9]/[1.8](10,500___/9,337_______/18,675)_____Level 05:(56,000______/54,250)______1600__/1550

06) [1.0]/[2.0](16,000___/16,118______/32,237)_____Level 06:(84,000______/70,000)______2400__/2000

07) [1.1]/[2.1](23,500___/24,868______/49,737)_____Level 07:(120,000_____/97,500)______3200__/2600

08) [1.1]/[2.2](33,000___/37,056______/74,112)_____Level 08:(180,000_____/125,625)_____4800__/3350

09) [1.1]/[2.3](46,000___/52,759______/105,518)____Level 09:(240,000_____/159,375)_____6400__/4250

10) [1.2]/[2.3](62,000___/72,681______/145,362)____Level 10:(380,000_____/215,729)_____9600__/5450

11) [1.2]/[2.4](82,000___/99,647______/199,294)____Level 11:(500,000_____/273,437)_____12800_/7000

12) [1.2]/[2.5](108,000__/133,827_____/267,654)____Level 12:(760,000_____/356,250)_____19200_/9000

13) [1.3]/[2.5](140,000__/178,358_____/356,716)____Level 13:(1,020,000___/462,187)_____25600_/11600

14) [1.3]/[2.6](185,000__/236,131_____/472,263)____Level 14:(1,520,000___/593,750)_____38400_/15000

15) [1.3]/[2.6](240,000__/310,350_____/620,700)____Level 15:(2,040,000___/776,953)_____51200_/19500

16) [1.3]/[2.6](315,000__/407,469_____/814,939)____Level 16:(3,160,000___/1,028,645)___76800_/25000

17) [1.3]/[2.6](410,000__/536,050_____/1,072,100)__Level 17:(4,040,000___/1,262,500)___102400/32000

18) [1.3]/[2.6](530,000__/693,862_____/1,387,725)__Level 18:(6,160,000___/1,644,270)___153600/41000

19) [1.3]/[2.6](685,000__/899,396_____/1,798,792)__Level 19:(8,240,000___/2,132,421)___204800/53000

20) [1.3]/[2.7](880,000__/1,165,949___/2,331,898)__Level 20:

Starting gold for level 20 = 880,000gp.
Gold gained if leveled from 1 to 20 normally = 2,336,898gp
Gold gained if leveled from 1 to 20 normally and sold all items at 1/2 value = 1,168,449gp

As you can see it is FAR more profitable, even at half value, to have characters revived, or to play from low level to high.

Based on this evidence it suggests that PCs will be under geared until level 6, at which point they will be roughly even with the standard starting gold of that level. From this point onward they gain more gold than starting, but it isn't a massive amount extra.
At level 20 the difference is 285,949 gold, and while that is substantial we should also be encouraging the PCs to do things in world. But--then again, if someone has been playing the same character since level 6, the turning point where they are getting more rather than less, then they deserve to gain the extra money. It can be use for spells that cost actual money to cast, consumables, and various other limited use items.

What do you guys think?

Liberty's Edge

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EDIT: Actually, I don't really know how you're getting your numbers. A character who starts at level 1 and goes all the way to level 20 should have about 880,000 GP in gear (+/- some undetermined amount...it's a ball-park figure).

The WBL table isn't telling you how much gold they should be getting each level, it's telling you how much gold they should be at AT that level. Again, it's a ball-park number, not a hard number.

So, someone who started at 1st level and goes to 20th level should have about the same value in gear as someone who just rolls up a 20th level character...in theory.


HangarFlying wrote:

EDIT: Actually, I don't really know how you're getting your numbers. A character who starts at level 1 and goes all the way to level 20 should have about 880,000 GP in gear (+/- some undetermined amount...it's a ball-park figure).

The WBL table isn't telling you how much gold they should be getting each level, it's telling you how much gold they should be at AT that level. Again, it's a ball-park number, not a hard number.

So, someone who started at 1st level and goes to 20th level should have about the same value in gear as someone who just rolls up a 20th level character...in theory.

CR 1 encounters give 400 experience, divide that by 4, for 4 PCs, and you get 100 per character.

This means it would take 20 CR 1 encounters for a party of level 1 characters to level up.

The treasure for a CR 1 encounter is valued at 260gp, and since you sell items at half value this encounter's treasure should be worth 130gp. This treasure is then split up between 4 characters, hence making it's value equal to 32 gp 5 sp per character. This multiplied by 20 is 650.

20 CR 1 encounters, therefore, are worth 2000 xp and 650 gp.
This makes traits like Rich Parents useful aside from just getting a wand of Infernal Healing or Cure Light Wounds.


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Finally, someone gets into it and does the math to prove what I have been saying for years - Wealth by Level is for building a character, the other treasure rules are how you actually gain wealth while playing the game, and not only do they not match up but they really don't have any real reason to match up.

Shadow Lodge

You're expected to have burned some of that wealth in consumable items and things like raise dead.

I also don't know of any game where you only fight 20 CR1 encounters before leveling.


TOZ wrote:

You're expected to have burned some of that wealth in consumable items and things like raise dead.

I also don't know of any game where you only fight 20 CR1 encounters before leveling.

You gain MORE money by level if you fight higher encounters.

CR 1 is 260 gp
CR 3 is 800 gp.

Shadow Lodge

Yes. Is there a problem?


TOZ wrote:
Yes. Is there a problem?

There is if you subscribe to the idea that starting level gold should equal the goal that someone should have by the time they reach that level. It is the idea that the two line up when they do not.

This shows that this is not the case. I can drop a lot of consumables, but if they party doesn't use them and sells them then they will end up with extra gold.

Then again this is the point where raise dead+restoration and other stuff comes into play. It is a minor flaw in some ways, but also encourages them to not be reckless fools, or to allow themselves to get wiped.

The point of the above is that CR3 is worth the same XP as 2 CR1 encounters, yet gives far more gold than 2 CR1 encounters.
This, of course, is a reward for defeating a higher level encounter, but at the same time this is pointing out that if the campaign used harder encounters that the wealth inequality gap will be larger than it otherwise would be.

Not that I am complaining, I am just pointing this out from when I crunched the numbers, and that I previously used a system that incorrectly went from starting level to starting level.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I will point out that the +2 CR = more than double treasure is a peculiarity of 1st and 2nd level only. As you move up to higher levels, the situation actually reverses, by quite a large margin when you get to the upper end of the game.

20 x CR 18 encounters awards 820,000 gp in treasure, but 10 x CR 20 a "measly" 670,000, for the same XP.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

_____

Starting gold for level 20 = 880,000gp.
Gold gained if leveled from 1 to 20 normally = 2,336,898gp
Gold gained if leveled from 1 to 20 normally and sold all items at 1/2 value = 1,168,449gp

Gold gained if all cash spent on potions/scrolls/wands which are then totally used up in the course of adventuring = 0

You don't look to have allowed for using up consumables. Since you can't (or shouldn't) dictate to the PCs what proportion of their wealth gets used up in that way, it seems rather pointless to me to give more than a very rough amount.


The flaw in the ops argument is in actual gameplay it doesnt matter. Wbl is a guideline not a sraightjacket and can be adjusted on the fly as the dm sees fit. Honestly please dont take thiswrong but you did alot of wholy unneccessary math.


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Chemlak wrote:

I will point out that the +2 CR = more than double treasure is a peculiarity of 1st and 2nd level only. As you move up to higher levels, the situation actually reverses, by quite a large margin when you get to the upper end of the game.

20 x CR 18 encounters awards 820,000 gp in treasure, but 10 x CR 20 a "measly" 670,000, for the same XP.

I know as a GM I generally take the view that a new character should get a good kick start up to being on par, but should be a little behind for a bit. Not behind enough to hurt, but enough to make it advantageous to not swap out characters every other level.

Another element that hasn't been mentioned is that, in some games at least, a player doesn't have complete control over what items they get. Usually there is room to spend some wealth on specific tailored items, but part of your wealth per level is "spent" by the GM. Some of the items you get will not be optimal for you.

When you make a new character, you can spend that gold in exactly the way that is most optimal for you. A player with 100,000 gold spread optimally and one with 100,000 and only 50,000 optimal will have a notable difference in power.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Taku Ooka Nin wrote:


This means it would take 20 CR 1 encounters for a party of level 1 characters to level up.

That sounds about right. You can usually complete about four CR = APL encounters in a 4-6 hour session. That means you'll level up in about five sessions. However, it should be less than that if the GM properly awards XP for roleplaying and non-combat encounters. Encounters below APL also take considerably less time, and above APL naturally award more XP.


I don't see anything wrong with the idea that players who play through the levels rather than start at a given level SHOULD have more wpl. The only issue I see is the disparity should be MORE. Players should be rewarded for sticking with there pcs from lower levels, and they shouldn't be expected tohave sub optimal items either. If there are no incentives to stick with a pc the players would simply retire and create new ones when convenient. Not only would custom equipment be a reward to do so but players could also phase out abilites that no longer are worth having at higher levels and have better pcs than those who stuck it out. These numbers also don't take into account slow progression, which gives way more wpl, and high fantasy campaigns. I think a math chart showing wpl for slow progression vs fast would raise some eyebrows and find more players excited to go that route.

As others have mentioned WPL is also the minimum and abstraction. WPL is like minimum wage. Just because that's how much everyone should atleast make per law doesn't mean that's what everyone should make period to make life enjoyable.

As a gm I only use wpl as a guide. I often use way more and it varies per character. Some classes are stronger than others. As a gm custom items give me a good way to help balance out pcs. Take the monk for instance. I think there weaker than most classes and a monk pc might have 2x the recomended wpl compared to other pcs in my games.


I am curious as to how adding in that all items found during an adventure can be sold at full value (so they get the second larger value) will effect gameplay.

Granted that this does means PCs will be horribly overgeared beyond a certain point, but it also means that if they have a huge amount of money that they can spend this money on other things like if they take leadership, built a town, and cement themselves IN the world as opposed to just traveling through.

They will eventually hit the point where they have everything they could cream of, and the extra is just there for them to use for other things.

Anyone done this, and know how it turns out?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
There is if you subscribe to the idea that starting level gold should equal the goal that someone should have by the time they reach that level. It is the idea that the two line up when they do not.

Of course it won't line up if you don't do the work necessary to make it line up.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
There is if you subscribe to the idea that starting level gold should equal the goal that someone should have by the time they reach that level. It is the idea that the two line up when they do not.
Of course it won't line up if you don't do the work necessary to make it line up.

The more interesting point is ~should~ you do the work to make it line up. Bringing in a new character should be a punishment in its own small way since you can retrain if something didn't work the way you wanted it to.

However, the punishment is literally only that you don't get the extra gold.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
The more interesting point is ~should~ you do the work to make it line up.

Only if it makes the game better for you.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
The more interesting point is ~should~ you do the work to make it line up.
Only if it makes the game better for you.

To balance gold, or not to balance gold,

*dramatic pause*
that is the question.

*dodges the fangasms of whovians and shakespeareians*

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

As long as it's balanced with the power level of your game, it doesn't have to match the WBL chart.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

I am curious as to how adding in that all items found during an adventure can be sold at full value (so they get the second larger value) will effect gameplay.

Granted that this does means PCs will be horribly overgeared beyond a certain point, but it also means that if they have a huge amount of money that they can spend this money on other things like if they take leadership, built a town, and cement themselves IN the world as opposed to just traveling through.

They will eventually hit the point where they have everything they could cream of, and the extra is just there for them to use for other things.

Anyone done this, and know how it turns out?

If you are doing a Paizo adventure, and found every single item then sold them all for half value, your characters should end up at about expected WBL. If you manage to make use of every single item (which really isnt plausible) youd end up at 2x WBL.

Selling stuff for full value, if your players are making sure to have their big 6 items all maxed out will quickly shoot up the power level of the game.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Yes. Is there a problem?

There is if you subscribe to the idea that starting level gold should equal the goal that someone should have by the time they reach that level. It is the idea that the two line up when they do not.

This shows that this is not the case. I can drop a lot of consumables, but if they party doesn't use them and sells them then they will end up with extra gold.

Uh... no. As I understand the wealth by level system (and as I use it), the total wealth of each PC should include those consumables. You are not just counting gold, you are counting the gold tied up in property, and counting that against the total.

So if they keep the consumable, you just count that toward the total of their treasure. If they sell it, they actually end up with a little less, since they are only getting about half the value.

This isn't perfect. It would be a really neurotic GM who had to keep track of his PCs' wealth perfectly balanced per level down to the copper. But I think your calculations may be missing a crucial element in that ALL property, not just gold coins, counts toward the total WBL. At least, that's what it looks like from what you're saying here.


Bruunwald wrote:
So if they keep the consumable, you just count that toward the total of their treasure. If they sell it, they actually end up with a little less, since they are only getting about half the value.

I think the assumption with consumables is that they consumed it, not kept it or sold it. [edit: Unless I'm misunderstanding either you or OP, in which case this comment can be safely 100% ignored!]

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