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4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Hi everyone.
I read the Butterfly's Sting feat from the Pathfinder Player Companion: Faiths of Purity and I have a question about it that seems relevant to answer, as it could make a could Two-Weapon Fighting build without sneak attacks.
The feat says: «When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.»
Source: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical
From the FAQ, it is said that you consider yourself as an ally. Thus, could I confirm a critical hit with a Kukri (18-20/x2) in a full-attack action and then pass it with the help of Butterfly's Sting to my Light Pick (20/x4)? I see no reasons to go against it, and my common sense tell me that if you can give the critical to a ally other than you, you can take advantage of the weakness you put into enemies.
I think this need a FAQ. I would like to use it in a PFS game, but I feel its too vague to use it that way until someone does a propre ruling on it in a FAQ.
P.S. Forgive for my english, it is not my main language.
As far as I know, yes you can do this.
Yes, it's also rather silly looking, when you think about it.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
So long as you're not breaking the rules about the order of attacks, I don't see why this wouldn't work.
I don't think it is silly looking. It would make good Two-Weapon Fighting without a dual-wielding weapon. Kind of a nice combo, don't you think?
Think about it. You open a weakness in a enemy with a weapon that someone can take advantage of. Why would only your other allies (other than you) take advantage of this when you have another weapon that could strike a this weakness at the same time? And if you miss, you still give the critical strike to your next ally that succesfully touches the enemy with a melee attack. It's open to teamwork and to wise fighting. It would be a good hammer & nail combo, not the strongest, but fun to play.
What is the 'order of attack' rule?
It's a nice combo, I'd just expect someone having a Dagger (which basically the Kukri is) in their off hand to use something other than a pick in their main hand. I wish there was like, an Estoic or something with x4 crit.
I prefer a Titan Mauler 2/Ranger X with a Scythe in his off-hand and a Falchion in his main hand :P The penalties to touch would be enormous, though.
I would be nice to have opposed thoughts on the subject.
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Order of attack means that, among your iterative attacks, you go from highest BAB to lowest. Note that it applies separately from off-hand attacks which have their own progression to follow. The bottom line is that each hand must independently go from highest BAB (or equivalent) to lowest BAB. For example, say you have 2 iteratives and 2 off-hand attacks at +10/+5 net bonus each (including TWF penalties). You could make any of the following attack routines:
Pick +10/Pick +5/Kukri +10/Kukri +5
Pick +10/Kukri +10/Pick +5/Kukri +5
Pick +10/Kukri +10/Kukri +5/Pick +5
Kukri +10/Pick +10/Pick +5/Kukri +5
Kukri +10/Pick +10/Kukri +5/Pick +5
Kukri +10/Kukri +5/Pick +10/Pick +5
Note that in no option does the +5 Pick happen before the +10 Pick nor the +5 Kukri before the +10 Kukri. As long as you follow these orders, I guess you can pass the Kukri crit on to the Pick. It'd probably be best to lead off with the Kukri first and, if it crits, follow with a Pick attack. If it doesn't crit, try the next Kukri attack and just run through your Kukri attacks and whenever you get a crit, butterfly it over to the Pick next then go back to the Kukri until you run out of Kukri attacks, then empty out your queue of Pick attacks. So probably use the Kukri as the main-hand weapon since you'll likely only end up with ITWF (GTWF, at BAB -10, isn't worth the feat slot) and you won't roll a crit every attack so you want as many chances to roll the crit as possible. The only hitch is in wording; does "next ally to hit" mean the next ally to land a hit (which would include yourself) or the "next ally" meaning an implied "after you" in which case you could only benefit if the iterative order comes back around to you again and no one else landed an attack.
Ooh, didn't know this. So I could start with kukri, and if I confirm a critical hit, I take the fifth option, or if I don't confirm a critical hit, I take the sixth option. That makes it clear.
You pinpointed it: it is the wording that is unclear. I don't know where I'm supposed to get that answer from.
An FAQ of interest:
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
Note: THe Gang Up FAQ used to mention for that feat specifically that you did not count as your own ally. It is still implied in that FAQ, but no longer explicitly stated.
Also note: If all of your allies miss, the Sting effect ends at the start of your next turn, so the only way to gain the benefit yourself would be using multiple attacks and/or AoOs.
It would be nice if only we could have an official answer.
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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Caïen wrote: What is the 'order of attack' rule? From Full Attack
Core Rules wrote: If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
Just seems to me that using the "you are you own ally" rule, to get a crit on your own off-hand weapon, was not the design intent for this feat.
I believe the design intent was that you open up a weakness in the creature's defenses, and then your ally (at a different position than you and fighting from a different angle)uses this tactical advantage to score a crit.
That's the way I see it, I may be totally wrong. It is really just my opinion.
Not saying it's not legal by RAW, since you ARE your own ally unless otherwise noted.
So...yeah.. maybe a FAQ?
How about this: it only works if you're an Inquisitor using Solo Tactics.
I think certain feats may have to specify when this doea and does not work I think it is easy to determine when it does not apply but I can see confusion at times.
Kazaan wrote: How about this: it only works if you're an Inquisitor using Solo Tactics. It is not stated as a teamwork feat.
Caïen wrote: Kazaan wrote: How about this: it only works if you're an Inquisitor using Solo Tactics. It is not stated as a teamwork feat. Wow, that's interesting. Well if it's just a critical feat rather than a teamwork feat, I'd say it almost certainly isn't necessary for a different character to take advantage of it.
I would suggest being primarily strength-based, and use a Heavy Pick (one-handed), instead of a Light one.
Otherwise, I think you're good.
I sort of agree with Ral Kaa. Just because it isn't a teamwork feat, means nothing. It's not like there aren't other non-teamwork feats that help your allies instead of you. Bodyguard, and In Harm's Way just for an example.
My main issue is that if you allow this to work than the feat generally doesn't work as it seems to have been intended. Suppose I am making a full attack. Further suppose that I am only weilding a kukri, and hoping my ally can follow up for me.
Attack1: Crit confirm with kukri.
attack2: miss.
attack3: hit with kukri.
Butterfly sting would automatically apply to attack 3, and not to the attack that I wanted it to (Ally's attack). I know what you're thinking: "Can't I just say I use Butterfly Sting AGAIN to forgo *that* critical and pass it on to my ally's attack?" No, you can't. Because of Butterfly Sting you *scored* a critical hit with your final attack, but you did not *confirm* a critical hit. Butterfly Sting can not be used. The Kukri would get the critical.
Good logic awp, but re-read the language:
Quote: When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical. You actually make a great point - that you can't "pass off" more than one critical hit, since your own further attack would benefit from it. Interestingly, this makes order of attacks very important: if you roll a critical, you would have to decide (before rolling the next attack) whether to take the crit or 'pass it on'. If you do pass it on, the next threat roll is meaningless (as it automatically confirms as a crit regardless).
Majuba is right on that point, awp.
Nevertheless, I prefer a Light Pick, because the TWF penalties are lesser, so I guess I get to touch more with my attacks.
Otherwise, I'd like to make a ranger Strenght focused with TWF combat style using this.
awp832 wrote: I sort of agree with Ral Kaa. Just because it isn't a teamwork feat, means nothing. It's not like there aren't other non-teamwork feats that help your allies instead of you. Bodyguard, and In Harm's Way just for an example.
My main issue is that if you allow this to work than the feat generally doesn't work as it seems to have been intended. Suppose I am making a full attack. Further suppose that I am only weilding a kukri, and hoping my ally can follow up for me.
Attack1: Crit confirm with kukri.
attack2: miss.
attack3: hit with kukri.
Butterfly sting would automatically apply to attack 3, and not to the attack that I wanted it to (Ally's attack). I know what you're thinking: "Can't I just say I use Butterfly Sting AGAIN to forgo *that* critical and pass it on to my ally's attack?" No, you can't. Because of Butterfly Sting you *scored* a critical hit with your final attack, but you did not *confirm* a critical hit. Butterfly Sting can not be used. The Kukri would get the critical.
The feats Bodyguard and In Harm's Way clearly states an adjacent ally. By logic, you cannot be adjacent to yourself. It is not clearly stated in Butterfly's Sting.
awp832 wrote: I sort of agree with Ral Kaa. Just because it isn't a teamwork feat, means nothing. It's not like there aren't other non-teamwork feats that help your allies instead of you. Bodyguard, and In Harm's Way just for an example.
My main issue is that if you allow this to work than the feat generally doesn't work as it seems to have been intended. Suppose I am making a full attack. Further suppose that I am only weilding a kukri, and hoping my ally can follow up for me.
Attack1: Crit confirm with kukri.
attack2: miss.
attack3: hit with kukri.
Butterfly sting would automatically apply to attack 3, and not to the attack that I wanted it to (Ally's attack). I know what you're thinking: "Can't I just say I use Butterfly Sting AGAIN to forgo *that* critical and pass it on to my ally's attack?" No, you can't. Because of Butterfly Sting you *scored* a critical hit with your final attack, but you did not *confirm* a critical hit. Butterfly Sting can not be used. The Kukri would get the critical.
Actually, Butterfly Sting's text explicitly says the next critical hit is automatically confirmed, so I would absolutely rue that you could "stack" critical hits if you scored a critical hit on your first attack but wanted to pass it to the two-handed fighter wielding a scythe or a tetsubo.
Yup, you can pass it along because the second hit is confirmed as a critical, using up the first Butterfly's Sting but triggering another. It isn't really stacking; there's still only one effective critical hit at the end of it all. The sad part is if you manage to roll a critical hit on attack 3. You might have gotten two critical hits if only you hadn't been passing along the crit from your first attack.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: awp832 wrote: I sort of agree with Ral Kaa. Just because it isn't a teamwork feat, means nothing. It's not like there aren't other non-teamwork feats that help your allies instead of you. Bodyguard, and In Harm's Way just for an example.
My main issue is that if you allow this to work than the feat generally doesn't work as it seems to have been intended. Suppose I am making a full attack. Further suppose that I am only weilding a kukri, and hoping my ally can follow up for me.
Attack1: Crit confirm with kukri.
attack2: miss.
attack3: hit with kukri.
Butterfly sting would automatically apply to attack 3, and not to the attack that I wanted it to (Ally's attack). I know what you're thinking: "Can't I just say I use Butterfly Sting AGAIN to forgo *that* critical and pass it on to my ally's attack?" No, you can't. Because of Butterfly Sting you *scored* a critical hit with your final attack, but you did not *confirm* a critical hit. Butterfly Sting can not be used. The Kukri would get the critical.
Actually, Butterfly Sting's text explicitly says the next critical hit is automatically confirmed, so I would absolutely rue that you could "stack" critical hits if you scored a critical hit on your first attack but wanted to pass it to the two-handed fighter wielding a scythe or a tetsubo. Or to that magus kensei with a Conductive +1 scythe holding a Shocking Grasp in his hand waiting for the critical hit (and having the Teamwork Feat that let you have an attack of opportunity if someone confirm a critical hit) that can make his scythe a x5 weapon on a critical and could use Pool Strike as a free action at the same time (triggering at least 2d6 damages that goes into 4d6 damages). With a magus with 18 Strenght, you could have a very nice nova of 20d4 (scythe) + 30 (str) + 5 (+1 bonus) + 8d6 electricity damages (Shocking Grasp) + 4d6 (Pool Strike, elemental damages of choice). Average damage: 143. Min: 67 Max: 187
What a walking nova!
I don't think this is the intention of the feat, but I also don't think it directly goes against the intention of butterfly's sting. I mean, designing a feat without TWF as a prerequisite intending for two-weapon fighters to use it would be wierd, but the intent seems to be to make it easier to get critical hits with x3-x4 weapons by making it harder with 18-20/x2 weapons. I also think this isn't the most game-breaking use, as you could instead use it to pass a bunch of attacks to a fighter with a scythe (profit in its own right), and then use the teamwork feat that lets you AoO on critical hits your ally (scythe fighter) confirms, and you get more attacks AND the fighter gets attacks counting as 4 attacks practically.
Well, it still has Combat Expertise as tax feat.
How does this interact with things that trigger on:
Confirming a critical hit?
Score a critical hit?
Striking a successful critical hit?
Vorpal?
For both the person with the feat, and the ally?
Vorpal triggers on a natural 20, not directly a critical hit. Striking and confirming a succesful critical hit is the same thing, no?
How about you dual wield transformative Kukris, and then transform them into a high crit weapon once you fish a crit? You also could use a single two handed weapon with a good crit range (are there any?) and transform it into a scythe.
Go transformative Keen fauchard, get crit, SCYTHE!
@LoneKnave:Transformative is a bit pricy, especially for 2 weapons (a total of 24,600+2xweapon cost for 2 weapons). And nodachi/falchion/elven curved blade are 2h weapons with good crit range.
I like Fauchard because I'm pretty sure the Sohei can flurry with it.
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thistledown wrote: How does this interact with things that trigger on:
Confirming a critical hit?
Score a critical hit?
Striking a successful critical hit?
Vorpal?
For both the person with the feat, and the ally?
For the person triggering Butterfly's String, it's as if they never confirmed their critical hit. For the ally, it's as if they confirmed their critical hit as normal. And no mix-and-match--either you get a critical or you don't.
A Sohei with a Transformative Nodachi could Flurry with it; but he could not transform it into a scythe to attack with it in the same sound, because he cannot flurry with it anymore.
On the other hand, two Transformative Kukris are sexy as hell...
Any official answer on the feat use?
It's fairly straightforward. I doubt you'll get any answer at all, and if you do it will be "no response required".
So I can do my former combo?
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Okay, quick damage calculation time!
Let's assume we are going TWF and have two attacks with the same BAB.
With Dual Kukris:
1 25% crit, +100% dmg
2 25% crit, +100% dmg
Average 25% dmg increase
With dual picks (also keen):
1 10% crit, +300% dmg
2 10% crit, +300% dmg
Average 30% dmg increase
Actually keen picks give you more damage. But! Crits can have rider effects so 5% more damage probably isn't worth it for those effects.
Okay, now with the butterfly sting trick:
1 25% crit, +0% dmg
2 25%+7,5% crit, +300% dmg
Average ~48% dmg increase.
I've lowered the crit chance of the pick itself by 25%, because if the Kukri crits, it's own crit chance doesn't matter. Still, you get a pretty niiiiice 20% dmg increase over just going dual picks; not counting stuff like you can optimize the pick for critting (give it the crit burst enchantments, etc).
I've started working on the dmg tables for this guy and hoooly sheeet. This stuff is difficult.
Fauchard/Naginata sohei calculations should be a lot easier.
Speaking of which: PC finally getting the Transformative enchant on his weapon, completing his build.
Could this make TWF more worth it?
EDIT: Must have that fauchard/naginata.
TWF is a very good combat style, but only if you are doing it on a full BAB class with a lot of feats, so really only fighters and rangers.
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The FAQ says you count as your own ally unless it wouldn't make sense. That's official enough for me.
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