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getting an ability score twice is allowed, there's several examples of this, the inquisitor has a few like stern gaze and monster lore.
fury's fall is great for weapons that trip, but cannot be finessed. use a polearm to trip people a lot? fury's fall will exactly let you have your bab + str + dex.
use a finesse weapon to trip people a lot? you're already getting your bab + dex in that case, and you can't double dip and get your dex again.
its situational, but devs have said thats how it rolls. if you're finessing a lot, don't take fury's fall. if you're using weapons that can't be finessed but want to trip, you get to have your str and dex apply.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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But I appreciate your houserule.
Except that I view your ruling as a house rule and mine rules as written.
A paladin 2/oracle 1 with the prophetic armor revelation ... I just make this character yesterday.
It is usually best to not build a character with a rule that has dissent on how it works. It is only ok if you play with only one GM, but if for PFS or similar steer clear. PFS has already said things like Pistolero/Mysterious don't get double DEX to damage and don't get a rebuild to fix it.
Paizo does not put up official FAQs for tertiary splats, so this FAQ will not get an official response.
Actually they do and James Jacobs is the responsible party for putting that out:
Golarion FAQIt is interesting that so many discount his rules opinions as "he isn't a rules guy" or "he isn't the Dev team" when he is the listed responsible person for rules questions for all books that are not core.
I didn't for this... I just wanted to know where it was in the rules O.o
Another situation (to fuel the fire) involves an obviously untyped bonus, the mixture of what happens to a familiars EWL when a 20th level wizard takes the Eldritch Heritage:Arcane feat. Even though the gained sorcress power clearly states it stacks with wizard levels for calculation the abilities of your familiar (You only really get AC and intelligence, nothing else...), people claim that adding your wizard class level and your character level is double dipping from the same source, an untype "levels" source.
So what would it be? Can a level 20 wizard have 37 EWL in his familiar?
I never noticed that one... Huh. I don't think it would do much in pathfinder, but that is weird.
Similary Boon Companion sais you may just have companion(s) of up to your character level, but if you have more than one companion you can bring them all up to that point (as it grants 4 EDLs for one companion)
In my humble opinion the Eldritch Heritage on Arcane Bloodline would not add to the familiar you have. At best you just gain another one, because the one is your EWL 20 and the other an ESL 18 and both do not work exactly the same (a spell you know vs a spell in your spellbook). But then again....
You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
and PRD
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item. Once per day, your bond item allows you to cast any one of our spells known (unlike a wizard's bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook).
I don't think CMB can be BAB+STR+DEX when you use Fury's Fall because Strength and Dexterity are both ability scores,
They are both different ability scores. Ability scores is a category of sources, not a source.
Totally serious, I just make this character yesterday.I don't know if you are serious, so I will look at this later.Seriously, they do not stack?
A paladin 2/oracle 1 with the prophetic armor revelation woudl not add twice his dex bonus to reflex? that sound depressing.
I can't find prophetic armor. Could you list the mystery it falls under or the source book?
It can not be as you say, BAB+STR+DEX is exactly what furys fall does. What woudl be the point of the feat then?I don't think CMB can be BAB+STR+DEX when you use Fury's Fall because Strength and Dexterity are both ability scores,
Sorry, that part should be quoted. If you read the rest of their post they're basically strawmanning the no dex+dex argument.
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Your dex bonus and your dex bonus are the same source.
The bonus is not the source.
Here is how the rules work.
Are bonus types A and B allowed to stack?
No=full stop
Yes=Are they from the same source(feat, magic item, spell, etc)?
...No=They are allowed to stack
...Yes=No they don't stack.
The dex bonus is not its own source. The source is what allows you to use the bonus.
@BigNorseWolf: Depends on how one views sources.
DEX is an Untyped Bonus. The Source could be the Feat or the Stat based on view.
First off, a Dex bonus isn't an untyped bonus, it's an ability bonus; specifically a dexterity bonus. The "source" of the ability may be a feat, but the feat doesn't provide a "feat bonus" in this case, it's providing a Dex bonus, the exact amount determined by your score. So the reason you can access the Dex bonus may come from two different places, but the "source" is Dexterity, in both cases.
Compare someone who holds a shield and casts a shield spell. The "source", as you have argued, would be an item and a spell. But that's not how it works; the bonus to AC is a shield bonus in both cases and doesn't stack.
The point is, the "source" takes into account both the bonus type and where it came from; so if a magic item granted you the benefit of the Dodge feat, it wouldn't stack with your existing Dodge feat, even though dodge bonuses stack, as they come from the same place.
You skipped a few post. A dex bonus is not a typed bonus. That has been shown by the rules. The source is not the bonus itself, but whatever gives the bonus. You only need to look at the source once you determine that the bonuses might stack.
Rules 101.
I don't think CMB can be BAB+STR+DEX when you use Fury's Fall because Strength and Dexterity are both ability scores, and that would be adding an ability score two times to a calculation, and that isn't allowed.
That is not anywhere in the rule book.
But I appreciate your houserule.Except that I view your ruling as a house rule and mine rules as written.
I was not trying to be insulting..I was saying your rule does not work by RAW. Now if you think this is a case of RAW not representing RAI properly, which does happen, then state why. If you stated it before then I did not get it.
Wraith, your level of condescension is not supported by your level of argument. You are simply stating that that's how the rules work, not showing it.
Wraith, your level of condescension is not supported by your level of argument. You are simply stating that that's how the rules work, not showing it.
I am have explained it in detail more than once. I will admit it may not have been in this thread, since there about 3 on this topic at once, and I was not being condescending. I thought it was common knowledge that a bonus was not its own source.
Thanks Nicos. In that case it should apply twice. The revelation allows charisma to replace dex for reflex saves. The paladin ability does not even add your charisma bonus. You get a bonus equal to your charisma score modifier, but even if it directly added the charisma bonus I would still say it stacked.
For referenece:
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all Saving Throws.
As you can see you add a bonus that is equal to your charisma bonus.
PS: I will admit this could be written that way because not every author of an ability will use the exact same writing style, but like I said both abilities are doing different things so they both should apply.
For those who were asking, wraithstrike has exposed his point several times in the following threads: here and here. As he said in those threads, by RAW ability scores are untyped bonuses, and agile maneuvers and fury's fall should stack. Nowhere in the rulebooks is said otherwise.
Neither of those link to any rationale for his position. Much less proof.
Where's the beef?
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one of his posts about AM+FF:
They stack(for lack of a better word). Fury's Fall adds dex to your CMB.
By the normal(base) rules CMB is "STR mod + BAB + size bonus + other applicable bonus"
You can use strength and agility to send foes crashing to the ground.
Prerequisites: Improved Trip.
Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
The fluff/flavor says "use strength and agility "
The mechanics say "add your Dexterity bonus to your". It never says dex replaces strength so now the formula is ""STR mod + BAB + size bonus + other applicable bonus + dex mod".That is RAW and RAI..
Now we look at "Agile Maneuvers" which explicitly replaces strength in the base formula..
That means you get to use dex in place of strength, and add it to the CMB total.-->double dip dex."
and one of his posts about untyped bonus:
A dex bonus is not a named dex bonus in the book.
The specific bonus types are things like moral bonus, insight bonus and so on so a dex bonus would fall under one of those bonues, such as an untyped bonus which always stack unless they come from the same source.
I am have explained it in detail more than once.Explained, yes but not proved it.
Plus the carekeeper of the rules of the book that Fury's Fall originates disagrees with you.
Disagrees using fluff as "someone cannot be doubly dexterous by using the feat" but his argument actually doesnt match the RAW. Possibly RAI, but not RAW.
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Here is a list of all recognized bonus types.
Note that "Ability Bonus" does not appear on that list. Thus the bonus provided by an ability is untyped (unless otherwise specified).
Therefore, bonuses from abilities stack unless they are from the same source or the 'source' explicitly disallows the stacking.
To answer the question, "What is a 'source'", you have to ask yourself, "What is the 'thing' - class feature, ability, feat, etc. - that I must have in order to gain this bonus?"
When you add your DEX modifier to an ranged attack roll, the DEX ability itself is the source, because by RAW you don't need any extra feat\class feature to do so.
If you have a feat (like Weapon Finesse) that allows you to add you DEX modifier to your melee attack roll, then the source is no longer the DEX ability. You normally don't get to add your DEX to your melee attack rolls; Weapon Finesse allows you to do so, and therefore Weapon Finesse is the source.
If you have 3 different class abilities that allow you to add the same bonus from a single ability to some statistic, the 'source' of that bonus is the class ability.
Here is a list of all recognized bonus types.
Note that "Ability Bonus" does not appear on that list. Therefore, the bonus provided by an ability is untyped.
Therefore, bonuses from abilities stack unless they are from the same source or the 'source' explicitly disallows the stacking.
To answer the question, "What is a 'source'", you have to ask yourself, "What is the 'thing' - class feature, ability, feat, etc. - that I must have in order to gain this bonus?"
When you add your DEX modifier to an ranged attack roll, the DEX ability itself is the source, because by RAW you don't need any extra feat\class feature to do so.
If you have a feat (like Weapon Finesse) that allows you to add you DEX modifier to your melee attack roll, then the source is no longer the DEX ability. You normally don't get to add your DEX to your melee attack rolls; Weapon Finesse allows you to do so, and therefore Weapon Finesse is the source.
If you have 3 different class abilities that allow you to add the same bonus from a single ability to some statistic, the 'source' of that bonus is the class ability.
That is what wraithstrike and I are arguing, AM and FF are different sources (one changes your str to dex, the other adds to cmb for trips) and as such they stack. It should be clear.
I agree with you, Razh. Although the fact that one changes STR to DEX, etc., is mostly irrelevant; they are from two different class features, and those features are (in this case) the source of the untyped bonus.
If you have a feat (like Weapon Finesse) that allows you to add you DEX modifier to your melee attack roll, then the source is no longer the DEX ability. You normally don't get to add your DEX to your melee attack rolls; Weapon Finesse allows you to do so, and therefore Weapon Finesse is the source.
I disagree. Weapon finesse isn't the source:
1) its not as far back as you can track it
2) weapon finesse does not supply a number
3) changing your dexterity changes your bonus, changing weapon finesse does not.
weapon finesse is just a connection between your dex and your attack roll: its a wire, not a battery.
If you have a feat (like Weapon Finesse) that allows you to add you DEX modifier to your melee attack roll, then the source is no longer the DEX ability. You normally don't get to add your DEX to your melee attack rolls; Weapon Finesse allows you to do so, and therefore Weapon Finesse is the source.I disagree. Weapon finesse isn't the source:
1) its not as far back as you can track it
2) weapon finesse does not supply a number
3) changing your dexterity changes your bonus, changing weapon finesse does not.weapon finesse is just a connection between your dex and your attack roll: its a wire, not a battery.
It is as far back as you can track it and still get the benefit. Thus, it is the source. If the DEX were the source, then you could add it in without the feat; you can't, therefore it is not the source.
Let me offer a comparison:
You have an underground spring of water. That spring is fed by rain that falls through the precipitation cycle.
If there is a hole to the surface, that spring will become a river. That hole is the source of the river, despite the fact that the water ultimately comes from the sky - because without that hole, the river does not exist.
The DEX bonus is the rain falling from the sky, but the feat is the hole that allows the river to flow - and thus the feat is the source.
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So, I started dreaming up a ranged combat build that ended up involving one attack per round always. I won't go into specifics, it's not the best build, but I want to know if these would both work together in adding damage to my attack roll.
Your anatomical insight adds deadliness to your shots.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.
Benefit: As a standard action, you may make an attack with a bow or crossbow and add your Intelligence modifier on the damage roll. You must be within 30 feet of your target to deal this extra damage. Creatures immune to critical hits and sneak attacks are immune to this extra damage.
Benefit: You gain a +2 insight bonus on Knowledge checks made to identify creatures, including the one Kirin Style allows. While using Kirin Style against a creature you have identified using that feat, as a swift action after you have hit a creature with a melee or ranged attack, you can add twice your Intelligence modifier in damage (minimum 2)
So, is the feat the source, and since they are two different sources, do they stack? Or is the attribute the source, and since it's coming from the source it doesn't stack?
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I am have explained it in detail more than once.Explained, yes but not proved it.
Plus the carekeeper of the rules of the book that Fury's Fall originates disagrees with you.
I have proven it. You not wanting to accept it does not make it any less valid. If I have left a question unanswered then ask but there was a link to typed bonuses and dex bonus was not listed as it's own type but fel under other bonus typws. Who is this caretaker you speak of? Jason and SKR handle the CRB and I don't see any quotes from them.
I agree with you, Razh. Although the fact that one changes STR to DEX, etc., is mostly irrelevant; they are from two different class features, and those features are (in this case) the source of the untyped bonus.
The reason traits don't stack is because the bonuses are called trait bonus. As for feats and class abilities that makes each.own its own source providing an untypes bonus unles it specificaly states otherwise. That means two feats providing a bonus to attack rolls, a dex bonus ,pr anything else stack.
The DEX bonus is the rain falling from the sky, but the feat is the hole that allows the river to flow - and thus the feat is the source.
I see no reason for this to be the case. You are making a declarative statement, not a rules citation and not even an argument. Thats a very bad argument to try to gain a mechanical advantage.
You wind up with a +4 from somewhere. Where is that +4? Right next to your dexterity.
Your "weapon finesse bonus" does not and can not give you a number because it doesn't exist. When you take a number from somewhere THATS the source.
I have proven it.
Show. Don't tell.
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As for the Prophetic Armor mystery letting you add cha to cha for reflex saves, there's a similar ability (discovery?) that alchemists can get, though I can't remember what it is.
I might be thinking of the Mindchemist's Perfect Recall ability.
The DEX bonus is the rain falling from the sky, but the feat is the hole that allows the river to flow - and thus the feat is the source.I see no reason for this to be the case. You are making a declarative statement, not a rules citation and not even an argument. Thats a very bad argument to try to gain a mechanical advantage.
You wind up with a +4 from somewhere. Where is that +4? Right next to your dexterity.
Your "weapon finesse bonus" does not and can not give you a number because it doesn't exist. When you take a number from somewhere THATS the source.
I made my argument, and then provided an analogy. Did you not read the part before the analogy? Please don't pretend that the analogy is all I provided, because it was very much not.
As to the feat not giving you a number - so what? I was unaware that there was a rule stating "A source will always have a numeric bonus attached to it,"; as you told wraithstrike above, show - don't tell.
If you have a DEX of 0 and you take Weapon Finesse, you still get your DEX bonus. The fact that it's no bonus at all is irrelevant; the source - the feat - still grants it, even if it does nothing for you.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Who is this caretaker you speak of? Jason and SKR handle the CRB and I don't see any quotes from them.
James Jacobs is the person in charge of rules questions on every book outside of the core books that PDT are in charge.
He has said Fury Fall won't allow you to get double Dex added.
You choose to ignore that, but he is listed as the person in charge of rules.
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James is the creative director, not in charge of rules.
From here:
(can I have a ruling on...)That's a question for the rules team and the rules forums, where FAQ can bring the discussion and questions to the right eyes.
(Anytime there's an existing thread discussing a single rules element, that's almost always a thread that's best served where it is where it can be FAQed, and is unlikely to be something I'll be willing to weigh in on so as to not confuse folks with answers that might not align with the design team's philosophies and rulings.)
Here's another and another.
I made my argument, and then provided an analogy. Did you not read the part before the analogy? Please don't pretend that the analogy is all I provided, because it was very much not.
Your other argument is that you can't trace it back to your dex.. despite being pointed to your dex. Its complete nonsense.
You want the mechanical advantage. You are flirting with cheese. You have to show that's actually the rule that you can do that.
As to the feat not giving you a number - so what? I was unaware that there was a rule stating "A source will always have a numeric bonus attached to it,"; as you told wraithstrike above, show - don't tell.
There's no rule stating what a source IS, so we're stuck with the English definition: the beginning. Where something comes from. But you can't use the feat without starting at a dex modifier.
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"a place, person, or thing from which something comes or can be obtained." Google Dictionary.
One thing that I might add is that a source is the point of origin of the finished product. This is important to note for the case of factories, a car factory is the source of cars, the source of cars is not the places the factory gets resources from. Factories put together and modify products from other sources to create their own finished product.
In this specific case, the feats create a finished product. They modify the rules regarding a specific attribute, creating a new finished product.
For example:
without agile maneuvers: dexterity does not add to CMB.
With agile maneuvers: dexterity does add to CMB.
While we get the number from dexterity, the the bonus and it's ability to add to cmb is the finished product of a feat, making the feat the source of the bonus to CMB.
EDITED for clarification.
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James is the creative director, not in charge of rules.
Would that life me simple if you were right.
What is the Golarion FAQ?
The design team’s area of interest is the Pathfinder RPG product line (Core Rulebook, Bestiary, Advanced Player’s Guide, and so on), but Paizo publishes content (both rules and flavor) specifically for its Golarion setting. The Golarion FAQ is for questions about Paizo-published content from source other than the Pathfinder RPG line: the Pathfinder Companions, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and so on.
Creative Director James Jacobs posts answers to the Golarion FAQ.
James Jacobs is in fact in charge of rules from any book except those books in the RPG line.
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James is the creative director, not in charge of rules.Would that life me simple if you were right.
James Jacobs is in fact in charge of rules from any book except those books in the RPG line.What is the Golarion FAQ?
The design team’s area of interest is the Pathfinder RPG product line (Core Rulebook, Bestiary, Advanced Player’s Guide, and so on), but Paizo publishes content (both rules and flavor) specifically for its Golarion setting. The Golarion FAQ is for questions about Paizo-published content from source other than the Pathfinder RPG line: the Pathfinder Companions, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and so on.
Creative Director James Jacobs posts answers to the Golarion FAQ.
That is not true James. He has said so himself. The other devs have also said James is not in charge of rules. Do I need to provide quotes?
He is however basically in charge of Golarion, and he has been the main person for most of the AP's. James basically handles flavor related things. The only way to invalidate a core rule is through an errata or FAQ explaining the words don't match the intent. Golarion uses the core rules. James made tried to used the core rules to explain his position.PS: Him not liking how the core rules work is different from him making a specific exception for a product assuming he can do so.
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That is not true James.
Wow, I don't know what to say.
I quoted you the thing that disagrees with you.
Believe what you will. But James Jacobs is in charge of rules questions for all books that are not in the core rules line.
You can accept it, or continue to deny it. Your choice.
A paladin smiting who casts Bladed Dash adds his CHA twice to his attack roll.
That is not true James.Wow, I don't know what to say.
I quoted you the thing that disagrees with you.
Believe what you will. But James Jacobs is in charge of rules questions for all books that are not in the core rules line.
You can accept it, or continue to deny it. Your choice.
However... The quotes about fury fall are from a time before that aren't they? And the idea about not adding the same stat twice is more of a core thing isn't it? Its also in an awkward state of not being a spoken rule.
product.In this specific case, the feats create a finished product. They modify the rules regarding a specific attribute, creating a new finished product.
The feat does not create a finished product. The feat is not anything on its own. It merely takes the dex mod from point A and applies it to point B where it wouldn't normally be.
Try to see the feat as a finished product: it doesn't work. The product only has one job: to add a certain number to the d20 roll... and you can't do that with just the feat.
The feat a backroad, not a source.
Its twisting the rules in the extreme to say that dex + dex is not the same source.
One can also say it is DEX(from X)+DEX(from Y)
Were X & Y are 2 separate feats.
Honestly I would just add an additional Bonus type.
Bonus(Ability): Bonuses of this type don't stack if they are from the same Ability Score.
Honestly I would just add an additional Bonus type.
Bonus(Ability): Bonuses of this type don't stack if they are from the same Ability Score.
Can of worms though without extra clarification. Does this apply to the abilities that use the wording 'in addition to"? Does this apply to things that give you a typed bonus based on a stat such as Otyugh's Guile or Paladin's Smite?
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It was one way of looking at it, but if you really think about it, it's true. The product is an amount equal to your dexterity added to your CMB. The feat adds to the number given from dexterity. It modify what it can be applied to. Does it make a physical object? No, and in that way it is an imperfect simile. But it does perform the action of modifying something (in this case, it modifies what dexterity applies to), which creates a end, or finished, product.
That's all that factories do. That's the implied definition of create. Taking something and modifying it to become something else. Would you say that the feat does not modify what the dexterity modifier can be applied to?
Once again, an imperfect comparison, but I hope it' not lost to you and that you can see where I'm coming from. I think thats what the point of all comparisons are made for: helping to communicate the idea that you have.