| 22 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Are Attribute Bonuses(Str, Dex, Con, Int Wis, Cha) typed bonuses?
When I make a combat maneuver check do I recalculate my CMB to add any situational modifiers? I.E If I have Fury's Fall do I add my Dexterity Bonus after I've totaled my CMB or before? Or if I have Improved Trip do I add the +2 before or after I total my CMB?
Asking if feats like agile maneuvers and furys fall stacks would be a bit more clear for a question, but I think that knowing if atribute bonuses are typed bonuses or not is enough to answer this.
Click on faq folks, so we can finally get an official answer to this question!
Asking if feats like agile maneuvers and furys fall stacks would be a bit more clear for a question, but I think that knowing if atribute bonuses are typed bonuses or not is enough to answer this.
Click on faq folks, so we can finally get an official answer to this question!
I don't feel that asking if two feats stacked is particularly gainful in the long run of the game. Eventually another instance would be applied and we've be back here all over again. If they answer the first question with a yes it could be possible to stack them considering the main argument is that Fury's Fall is applied after you calculate CMB(which makes no sense) and my second question addresses that. This format gives us precedent for other future possibilities of people trying to double dip their stat bonuses.
Appreciate the clicks mate.
Asking if feats like agile maneuvers and furys fall stacks would be a bit more clear for a question, but I think that knowing if atribute bonuses are typed bonuses or not is enough to answer this.
Click on faq folks, so we can finally get an official answer to this question!
I don't feel that asking if two feats stacked is particularly gainful in the long run of the game. Eventually another instance would be applied and we've be back here all over again. If they answer the first question with a yes it could be possible to stack them considering the main argument is that Fury's Fall is applied after you calculate CMB(which makes no sense) and my second question addresses that. This format gives us precedent for other future possibilities of people trying to double dip their stat bonuses.
Appreciate the clicks mate.
Good argument, I agree! The last time, we got a "no response required". Maybe they will answer this if we get enough clicks on faq, as this still brings a lot of discussions.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
No they are not. Otherwise magic items such as the headbands and belts and the spells needed to create them would not need to call them out as enhancement bonuses. When you get these bonuses however they are under another type of bonus to make sure they are not untyped.
Here is a list of bonus types called out in the game.
Bonus (Alchemical)
An alchemical bonus is granted by the use of a non-magical, alchemical substance such as antitoxin.
Bonus (Armor)
An armor bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses. An armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armor bonuses granted by force effects (such as the mage armor spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks, such as that of a shadow.
Bonus (Circumstance)
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.
Does it Stack? Yes. Most bonuses of this type are cumulative- that is, they are added together instead of taking only the highest bonus.
Bonus (Competence)
A competence bonus (or penalty) affects a character's performance of a particular task, as in the case of the bardic ability to inspire competence. Such a bonus may apply on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, caster level checks, or any other checks to which a bonus relating to level or skill ranks would normally apply. It does not apply on ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks. Multiple competence bonuses don't stack; only the highest bonus applies.
Bonus (Deflection)
A deflection bonus affects Armor Class and is granted by a spell or magic effect that makes attacks veer off harmlessly. Deflection bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other deflection bonuses. A deflection bonus applies against touch attacks.
Bonus (Dodge)
A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never1 usually not granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.
Does it Stack? Yes. Multiple bonuses of this type are cumulative- that is, they are added together instead of taking only the highest bonus.
1 Except (apparently) for the haste spell?
Bonus (Enhancement)
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
Bonus (Insight)
An insight bonus improves performance of a given activity by granting the character an almost precognitive knowledge of what might occur. Multiple insight bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest insight bonus applies.
Bonus (Luck)
A luck modifier represents good (or bad) fortune. Multiple luck bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest luck bonus applies.
Bonus (Morale)
A morale bonus represents the effects of greater hope, courage, and determination (or hopelessness, cowardice, and despair in the case of a morale penalty). Multiple morale bonuses on the same character do not stack. Only the highest morale bonus applies. Non-intelligent creatures (creatures with an Intelligence of 0 or no Intelligence at all) cannot benefit from morale bonuses.
Bonus (Natural Armor)
A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
Bonus (Profane)
A profane bonus (or penalty) stems from the power of evil. Multiple profane bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest profane bonus applies.
Bonus (Racial)
A bonus granted because of the culture a particular creature was brought up in or because of innate characteristics of that type of creature. If a creature's race changes (for instance, if it dies and is reincarnated), it loses all racial bonuses it had in its previous form.
Does it Stack? Yes. Multiple bonuses of this type are cumulative- that is, they are added together instead of taking only the highest bonus.
Bonus (Resistance)
A resistance bonus affects saving throws, providing extra protection against harm. Multiple resistance bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest resistance bonus applies.
Bonus (Sacred)
A sacred bonus (or penalty) stems from the power of good. Multiple sacred bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest sacred bonus applies.
Bonus (Shield)
A shield bonus improves Armor Class and is granted by a shield or by a spell or magic effect that mimics a shield. Shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other shield bonuses. A magic shield typically grants an enhancement bonus to the shield's shield bonus, which has the effect of increasing the shield's overall bonus to AC. A shield bonus granted by a spell or magic item typically takes the form of an invisible, tangible field of force that protects the recipient. A shield bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
Bonus (Size)
A size bonus or penalty is derived from a creature's size category. Size modifiers of different kinds apply to Armor Class, attack rolls, Stealth checks, combat maneuver checks, and various other checks.
Bonus (Trait)
A trait bonus is a bonus granted via a character trait. Character traits are an optional additional character defining feature like feats but less powerful (typically about half as strong as a feat.) As with other named bonuses, trait bonuses do not "stack" with other trait bonuses.
Now what we can do is simply FAQ this to find out if these definitions are correct, and to see if this is a complete list at least of bonuses as of right now.
I did not list untyped bonuses because they are don't have a type.
Edit:I don't think all ability bonuses default to enhancement bonus. I just think that is the general type used for ability bonuses if the devs wish to give them a type.
|
They don't stack. Devs have already answered this question using Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse as examples. You cannot gain bonuses from a statistic twice.
Here is a link to another thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p89d?Agile-maneuvers-Furys-Fall#2
And before you say that JJ's opinion is not official, blah, blah, blah. JJ is plenty official for me...and his statements on this makes sense anyway.
They don't stack. Devs have already answered this question using Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse as examples. You cannot gain bonuses from a statistic twice.
Here is a link to another thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p89d?Agile-maneuvers-Furys-Fall#2And before you say that JJ's opinion is not official, blah, blah, blah. JJ is plenty official for me since he is integral to paizo.
I printed JJ's opinoin myself when this first came up, and even he says he is not the official voice for rules, and some posters know the rules better, and if you want to use his ruling for you games that is fine, but that has no bearing for anyone else. So if you wish to counter then bring some rule quotes. I can't go to SKR, and get an official answer on how things in Golarion work so I have give the rules team the same respect. I am not saying SKR or anyone else on the PDT would not know. I am saying they don't get to making rulings in that area.
They don't stack. Devs have already answered this question using Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse as examples. You cannot gain bonuses from a statistic twice.
Here is a link to another thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p89d?Agile-maneuvers-Furys-Fall#2And before you say that JJ's opinion is not official, blah, blah, blah. JJ is plenty official for me...and his statements on this makes sense anyway.
I normally agree but the recent thread on Fury's Fall makes it clearly not the case.
I think his opinion is official enough for me as well as he is closer to the Devs period.
Where is that list printed?
3.5 SRD except for that trait bonus definition.
All of them together can also be found on the pfsrd.
The point of me asking to FAQ that post is to make sure they still "officially" apply because I know someone will say PF is not 3.5, but since that is a copy and paste the devs can simply say yes if they do, or list which bonus act differently now.
Where is that list printed?Under designing spells.
I did not know it was there also. Well as you(general statement) all can see neither 3.5 of PF calls a flat ability bonus out as a bonus type. So if you don't think they stack that means you need to find a rule to make it official that ability score bonuses without a type still don't stack. I am going to tell you that no such rule exist, so you don't go wasting your time.
Agile Manuevers and Weapon Finesse don't stack because they do they exact same thing, let you use your dex instead of your str. Having two different sources that let you use dex instead of str doesn't add anything extra to your CMB.They don't stack. Devs have already answered this question using Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse as examples. You cannot gain bonuses from a statistic twice.
Here is a link to another thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p89d?Agile-maneuvers-Furys-Fall#2And before you say that JJ's opinion is not official, blah, blah, blah. JJ is plenty official for me...and his statements on this makes sense anyway.
Going by that line of thinking we can also argue that weapon finesse and furys fall stacks, as one add your dex modifier to your CMB, and the other add your dex bonus to trip maneuvers.
That said, I agree with Wraith that ability scores are untyped bonuses.
SKR once said something along the lines of looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
Attribute bonuses are called out just like any other kind of typed bonus.
I get a +1 Luck bonus to damage.
I also get a +1 Strength bonus to damage.
I get a Dexterity bonus to AC.
I get a Charisma bonus to Diplomacy.
Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some
numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
This combined with Developer intent that you shouldn't be able to double dip your attribute bonus on anything makes it very reasonable to consider them a typed bonus.
Agile Manuevers and Weapon Finesse don't stack because they do they exact same thing, let you use your dex instead of your str. Having two different sources that let you use dex instead of str doesn't add anything extra to your CMB.
That is incorrect Victor. I explained how they worked in my post in the other thread.
FF adds your dex modifier to your CMB total.-->BAB+STR mod+DEX mod+size bonus+other applicable bonus<-----That is not replacing strength.
AM replaces dex with str.
The bonus list need not be seen as exhaustive. At least one bonus type is not on the list (mythic), and others might come up as new mechanics are introduced. The rules for handling new bonus types are basically inferred--they don't stack with others of the same type unless the bonus type definition says that they do.
However, attribute formulae are not structured in such a way that Dexterity bonus would be considered a bonus type, though. It's more likely that the ability score double-dip prohibition is intended to be viewed as falling under the "same source" restriction. I don't follow that view, but it's more consistent than trying to treat Dexterity bonus as a type.
SKR once said something along the lines of looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
Attribute bonuses are called out just like any other kind of typed bonus.
I get a +1 Luck bonus to damage.
I also get a +1 Strength bonus to damage.
I get a Dexterity bonus to AC.
I get a Charisma bonus to Diplomacy.
This combined with Developer intent that you shouldn't be able to double dip your attribute bonus on anything makes it very reasonable to consider them a typed bonus.Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some
numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
1. There is no official bonus type called an attribute bonus as listed in UM or from 3.5, so you can't even argue that Paizo just forgot it when they were copying and pasting parts of 3.5.
If you want to call it a bonus for those abilities, then it is an untyped bonus from two different sources which do stack.2. The feats don't even do the same thing. They affect the character in different ways.
3. The magic section listed all of the bonuses because magic is more likely to be the source of every bonus in the game. Therefore it is no coincidence that the magic section has all the bonuses as the 3.5 SRD.
edit: That charisma bonus to diplomacy is an untyped bonus so if I can get it from more than one source they stack.
The bonus list need not be seen as exhaustive. At least one bonus type is not on the list (mythic), and others might come up as new mechanics are introduced. The rules for handling new bonus types are basically inferred--they don't stack with others of the same type unless the bonus type definition says that they do.
However, attribute formulae are not structured in such a way that Dexterity bonus would be considered a bonus type, though. It's more likely that the ability score double-dip prohibition is intended to be viewed as falling under the "same source" restriction. I don't follow that view, but it's more consistent than trying to treat Dexterity bonus as a type.
The mythic book was not made at that time, and ability scores are at the core of the game. If they were a "typed bonus" they would have been listed. Now if a book comes out next year that also would not be on the list, every bonus type in existence at that time was in that book, and those bonuses came from 3.5, which had a detailed definition which I supplied for you. Now if you want to argue that PF gave ability bonuses a type, while 3.5 did not then provide proof. As of right now my "copy and paste" idea is looking pretty good.
Asking if feats like agile maneuvers and furys fall stacks would be a bit more clear for a question, but I think that knowing if atribute bonuses are typed bonuses or not is enough to answer this.
Click on faq folks, so we can finally get an official answer to this question!
I don't feel that asking if two feats stacked is particularly gainful in the long run of the game. Eventually another instance would be applied and we've be back here all over again. If they answer the first question with a yes it could be possible to stack them considering the main argument is that Fury's Fall is applied after you calculate CMB(which makes no sense) and my second question addresses that. This format gives us precedent for other future possibilities of people trying to double dip their stat bonuses.
Appreciate the clicks mate.
Your bias is showing.
Have you ever 'tried to double dip' your Con Bonus on you HP? Shame on you!
This combined with Developer intent that you shouldn't be able to double dip your attribute bonus on anything makes it very reasonable to consider them a typed bonus.
On "anything"? Better recalc all of everything's HP now. Only gets a con modifier ONCE, ever, no matter how many hit dice it has.
Asking if feats like agile maneuvers and furys fall stacks would be a bit more clear for a question, but I think that knowing if atribute bonuses are typed bonuses or not is enough to answer this.
Click on faq folks, so we can finally get an official answer to this question!
I don't feel that asking if two feats stacked is particularly gainful in the long run of the game. Eventually another instance would be applied and we've be back here all over again. If they answer the first question with a yes it could be possible to stack them considering the main argument is that Fury's Fall is applied after you calculate CMB(which makes no sense) and my second question addresses that. This format gives us precedent for other future possibilities of people trying to double dip their stat bonuses.
Appreciate the clicks mate.
Your bias is showing.
Have you ever 'tried to double dip' your Con Bonus on you HP? Shame on you!
If another ability/feat said add your con score to your hit points then it would work, but pushing hit points like that is a lot different than boosting a trip bonus.
With that aside if the devs did not intend for this combo to work they will have to errata one of them, since they have different affects.
One replaces strength. The other is an addition to your CMB total for trip.
What they "Effectively" do has no effect on what they "Actually" do. Now if they both added your dex bonus to CMB then I would understand, but even that might be rules legal depending on how it was written.
Wraithstrike has repeatedly shown why these are not 'stacking', are not 'typed' bonuses, and why both work together perfectly fine. In each case he has shown, no one has yet to provide a counterargument backed by anything official, anywhere.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The mythic book was not made at that time, and ability scores are at the core of the game. If they were a "typed bonus" they would have been listed. Now if a book comes out next year that also would not be on the list, every bonus type in existence at that time was in that book, and those bonuses came from 3.5, which had a detailed definition which I supplied for you. Now if you want to argue that PF gave ability bonuses a type, while 3.5 did not then provide proof. As of right now my "copy and paste" idea is looking pretty good.The bonus list need not be seen as exhaustive. At least one bonus type is not on the list (mythic), and others might come up as new mechanics are introduced. The rules for handling new bonus types are basically inferred--they don't stack with others of the same type unless the bonus type definition says that they do.
However, attribute formulae are not structured in such a way that Dexterity bonus would be considered a bonus type, though. It's more likely that the ability score double-dip prohibition is intended to be viewed as falling under the "same source" restriction. I don't follow that view, but it's more consistent than trying to treat Dexterity bonus as a type.
I do not want to argue that. I barely even played 3.5 and don't consider it when looking at Pathfinder rules unless I'm looking for playtested house rule options for my own games. And I don't think ability score bonuses are typed--in fact, I have no problem with "double dipping" at all.
My point was about bonus types being seen as exhaustive, which I don't necessarily agree with. If Paizo publishes a module with a magic item that provides, say, an "eldritch bonus" without explanation, the rules would not need to be clarified at all in order to play a game that uses such an item. So I don't rule out that Dexterity can be a bonus type just because it doesn't appear in the list--I rule it out because the text describing such bonuses don't parse properly when Dexterity is treated as a bonus type.
(Edited: removed irrelevant conclusion)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Asking if feats like agile maneuvers and furys fall stacks would be a bit more clear for a question, but I think that knowing if atribute bonuses are typed bonuses or not is enough to answer this.
Click on faq folks, so we can finally get an official answer to this question!
I don't feel that asking if two feats stacked is particularly gainful in the long run of the game. Eventually another instance would be applied and we've be back here all over again. If they answer the first question with a yes it could be possible to stack them considering the main argument is that Fury's Fall is applied after you calculate CMB(which makes no sense) and my second question addresses that. This format gives us precedent for other future possibilities of people trying to double dip their stat bonuses.
Appreciate the clicks mate.
Your bias is showing.
Have you ever 'tried to double dip' your Con Bonus on you HP? Shame on you!
If another ability/feat said add your con score to your hit points then it would work, but pushing hit points like that is a lot different than boosting a trip bonus.
With that aside if the devs did not intend for this combo to work they will have to errata one of them, since they have different affects.
One replaces strength. The other is an addition to your CMB total for trip.
What they "Effectively" do has no effect on what they "Actually" do. Now if they both added your dex bonus to CMB then I would understand, but even that might be rules legal depending on how it was written.
I concur. And I was just demonstrating the stance "never stack never" has ancillary results that are obviously false.
Wraithstrike has repeatedly shown why these are not 'stacking', are not 'typed' bonuses, and why both work together perfectly fine. In each case he has shown, no one has yet to provide a counterargument backed by anything official, anywhere.
Exactly, which proves that unless the devs give an errata or faq, thats how the rules as written works, unless someone can give another argument based on actual rules written in the book, which didnt happened so far. Nowhere it states ability scores as typed bonuses.
Wraithstrike has repeatedly shown why these are not 'stacking', are not 'typed' bonuses, and why both work together perfectly fine. In each case he has shown, no one has yet to provide a counterargument backed by anything official, anywhere.Exactly, which proves that unless the devs give an errata or faq, thats how the rules as written works, unless someone can give another argument based on actual rules written in the book, which didnt happened so far. Nowhere it states ability scores as typed bonuses.
Agreed.
I do not want to argue that. I barely even played 3.5 and don't consider it when looking at Pathfinder rules unless I'm looking for playtested house rule options for my own games. And I don't think ability score bonuses are typed--in fact, I have no problem with "double dipping" at all.
My point was about bonus types being seen as exhaustive, which I don't necessarily agree with. If Paizo publishes a module with a magic item that provides, say, an "eldritch bonus" without explanation, the rules would not need to be clarified at all in order to play a game that uses such an item. So I don't rule out that Dexterity can be a bonus type just because it doesn't appear in the list--I rule it out because the text describing such bonuses don't parse properly when Dexterity is treated as a bonus type.
The list is exhaustive, and when a new bonus type is made that will be added to the list, and like I said the ability scores are at the core of the game. There is no reason for them to not have a typed bonus if that is the intent. Listing bonuses that might exist later has no effect on a bonus that would exist right now since the history of 3.5+PF goes back 13 years, and therefore there is no reason to not list it's type.
If I am reading you correctly, you are saying it is only a loophole(lack of clarification) in the rules that allows my idea to work per RAW. Is that correct?
PS: The rules parse perfectly if you treat it as an untyped bonus from two different sources, unless you are going to argue that ability bonus do have a type, and someone forgot to put it in the book. Now if that is the case feel free to start an FAQ on that topic. Otherwise I am confused at your position.
I think fury's fall is a very powerfull feat for a trip based character.
Because of this many people choose to side that the ability does nto stack. Then when you have someone from paizo say they would not allow it for their homegame they use that as raw.
I would appreciate a ruling so I could use this without table variance in PFS.
Well Findland monsters have a cap on what size you can trip them at relative to your size. Now in a game full of humanoids instead of monsters this feat can annoy a GM.
I think an FAQ on stacking is needed more than an FAQ on this specific feat. If they handle the incorrect thought on double dipping then that will automatically handle this situation any others that may come later.
The weird thing is if there is no attribute bonus in general what are we adding? The ruled say I add my strength bonus to damage use my dex bonus for ranged attacks and monsters have it in their statblock for ac.
So if I'm not adding my dex bonus to my sc what am I adding?
The weird thing is if there is no attribute bonus in general what are we adding? The ruled say I add my strength bonus to damage use my dex bonus for ranged attacks and monsters have it in their statblock for ac.
So if I'm not adding my dex bonus to my sc what am I adding?
What I am saying is that every bonus is a "typed bonus" of which there are only certain ones, or the bonus is an untyped bonus. Attribute bonus are not a bonus type/typed bonus of their own. They tend to fall under size bonuses, or enhancement bonuses as an example. With the two feats that led to the creation of this thread they are untyped bonuses. In addition to that the feats do two very different things so even if you they had a specific type , which they don't, it is questionable that this would be stacking.
Considering that ability scores are untyped bonus, would the feats weapon finesse, agile maneuvers and fury's fall stack together for trip attempts?
I would say yes, as weapon finesse add your dex modifier to cmb, agile maneuvers uses dex instead of str in the cmb calculation and fury's fall add your dex to trip maneuvers.
This would give the trip guy dex x3 for a heavy investment, which would make trip a very effective tactic even on higher levels, considering the cmd also tends to raise a lot in later levels.
@galahad
But then we come across specific rules like the combination of those feats, who let you stack those bonuses.
Considering that ability scores are untyped bonus, would the feats weapon finesse, agile maneuvers and fury's fall stack together for trip attempts?
I would say yes, as weapon finesse add your dex modifier to cmb, agile maneuvers uses dex instead of str in the cmb calculation and fury's fall add your dex to trip maneuvers.
This would give the trip guy dex x3 for a heavy investment, which would make trip a very effective tactic even on higher levels, considering the cmd also tends to raise a lot in later levels.
@galahad
But then we come across specific rules like the combination of those feats, who let you stack those bonuses.
Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers would not stack. They both replace your Str modifier with your Dex modifier.
Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers would not stack. They both replace your Str modifier with your Dex modifier.Considering that ability scores are untyped bonus, would the feats weapon finesse, agile maneuvers and fury's fall stack together for trip attempts?
I would say yes, as weapon finesse add your dex modifier to cmb, agile maneuvers uses dex instead of str in the cmb calculation and fury's fall add your dex to trip maneuvers.
This would give the trip guy dex x3 for a heavy investment, which would make trip a very effective tactic even on higher levels, considering the cmd also tends to raise a lot in later levels.
@galahad
But then we come across specific rules like the combination of those feats, who let you stack those bonuses.
Reading the feats again it makes sense, to stack you need either agile maneuvers+fury's fall or weapon finesse+fury's fall.
That said, its a heavy investment to make a decent trip focused build, and I see no problem with stacking AM and FF. Cmd tends to raise a lot on mid to high level so I wouldnt say that is unbalanced, being rai or not.
Considering that ability scores are untyped bonus, would the feats weapon finesse, agile maneuvers and fury's fall stack together for trip attempts?
I would say yes, as weapon finesse add your dex modifier to cmb, agile maneuvers uses dex instead of str in the cmb calculation and fury's fall add your dex to trip maneuvers.
This would give the trip guy dex x3 for a heavy investment, which would make trip a very effective tactic even on higher levels, considering the cmd also tends to raise a lot in later levels.
@galahad
But then we come across specific rules like the combination of those feats, who let you stack those bonuses.
Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers would not stack. They both do the same thing.
Weapon Finesse does not add dex to your attack roll or CMB. It replaces strength just like Agile Maneuvers does.edit:They dont do the exact same thing, but they don't stack because they overlap for purposes of maneuvers.
|
The main argument against you could be that luck bonuses are specifically called out in the book as luck bonuses. Absolutely nowhere in the dozens of books paizo has published is a single bonus called out as a "+x strength/dex/con/int/wis/cha bonus".
I've quoted on another thread the first stat block in the Bestiary (here it is again), which calls out a +1 Dexterity bonus to its AC in the same format as its natural armor bonus and its size bonus.
If another ability/feat said add your con score to your hit points then it would work, but pushing hit points like that is a lot different than boosting a trip bonus.With that aside if the devs did not intend for this combo to work they will have to errata one of them, since they have different affects.
One replaces strength. The other is an addition to your CMB total for trip.
What they "Effectively" do has no effect on what they "Actually" do. Now if they both added your dex bonus to CMB then I would understand, but even that might be rules legal depending on how it was written.
Saying that if they didn't intend for the combo to work like that under very ambiguous reasoning is cause for an errata of a splat book is kinda crazy considering they close to never errata splat books.
You add your Dexterity to CMB normally with Agile Maneuvers. When you make a trip attempt you add your dexterity to your CMB. That is most definitely clashing.
*waits to see if the designers respond before delving into the "what constitutes a 'source'" discussion*
@Archaeik: Looking at the PRD, I don't see the word 'untyped'. I think it's implied from the glossary definition of bonus and designer comments:
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Most bonuses have a type - which implies some don't.
I have always assumed that a source is whatever actually allows you to add the bonus to a statistic\ability\etc.
For example, you freely gain your DEX modifier as a bonus to your AC; no feat or other ability is required for that to occur, so the source in that case is your DEX.
You can't normally add\substitute your DEX on an attack roll; Weapon Finesse allows you to do so (with the appropriate weapons), and so in that case, Weapon Finesse is the source.
That said, I do understand the counterargument - I just don't agree that it's the better interpretation. I would like to get designer input on what they consider a 'source' - not necessarily an FAQ, but just a rough idea. I think it'd help to clear up some of this. I might go ask in the JJ thread to get his input.