Eidolon Appearance Questions


Rules Questions


So... the concept of the eidolon being of any look you want is pretty obvious in how it works. You can make it look like any general concept, but not like an specific person. It says that it can look HOWEVER... you want. But... how far does this appearance customization go and how much does it effect the world? Let me clarify with some examples.

What would happen if I created my eidolon to have shovel shaped hands with bony plating covering them? Could he now have the benefits that come with using a shovel? Or could I create him with two mouths and sets of vocal cords two speak from both? Things like that.

At what point does the cosmetic change move over into a mechanical violation?

Here is the main reason for the question. I want my eidolon to house me within its body. For example, create it with a cavity in its back fitted for my body. I crawl up its back, socket myself in, and several retractable plates seal over the orifice. Or perhaps the orifice is in the front and it leaves my arms and head free for movement.

I don't see any reason (reading the rules) that this can't be done. However, if I missed anything it would be nice to know.


If you did that you and the Eidolon would be squeezing in the same space with all the penalties that brings with it.


I'm small and he is medium. I figured it would be a nifty way of using the mount evolution.


Not sure on that one sounds a bit cheesy to me


presume any appearance that doesn't confer a game effect is available.

Shovel-like hands that don't make the eidolon dig any faster, sure

cavity for your legs that do not provide any cover or protection bonus is fine too.

If the weirdness has a game impact, it must be purchased with a feat or evolution point, short of that, go wild.


Because what I'm seeing is, my halfling "rides" prone on the spiderlike eidolon. The legs and front of chest are within the cavity, hands can be inserted for holding on better when the sucker is wall crawling, but otherwise his is simply prone riding his mount. I was looking for mechanical bennies.

Liberty's Edge

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I would peg it as a cosmetic variation of the Synthesis archetype ;-)


Eh, can't use said archetype. Otherwise I certainly would.


I don't really see a problem with that, so long as your eidolon has the mount and climb evolutions and you're willing to be treated as any other halfling/eidolon mount+climb combination. The prone condition, however, only applies when you are on the ground, per the description for the condition:

Prone wrote:

The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

So generally you can't have the prone condition atop a mount even if you're prone atop a mount.

Edit: I'd save the shovel hands for whenever you take the burrow evolution. The mouths thing is fine, but for mechanical purposes it's basically only one unless you take the head evolution. So it'd only get one bite attack, it couldn't activate two hypothetical command-word-free-action items simultaneously, etc.


Nice point blahpers. I found it! The exact creature I am attempting to emulate! It is called the Mind Steed and it is on page 26 of the Twisted Lore Legends and Lairs book.

If I can make my eidolon like any creature, why can't I make it like this one and get the "Engage Rider" type of effect. Me inside the sucker. I've made it look like the Mind Steed inside and out, so... why can't I?

Having thought of all this, I see now the issues with the eidolon. That "make it like anything" line is too open ended for intelligent players it seems.

Heck, with a high enough Knowledge (X) check, you can make a creature exactly like the original. Knowing how its organs function, where they are located, what chemicals it produces (aka making that organ) and so forth.


Yes and no. You can put all of the individual attributes in, but you still end up making a creature that is obviously not the source creature, per the rules for eidolon apperance:

Summoner wrote:
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature. The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned. While this rune can be hidden through mundane means, it cannot be concealed through magic that changes appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts).

For example, you can make your eidolon have all the properties of a horse--mane, hooves, and so on--but anybody who has seen a horse will know that the eidolon is not a horse without even getting into the summoner's rune.

You can absolutely go nuts with creativity. The group I'm playing in has a summoner whose eidolon is a zebra-striped Shetland pony with clawed feet.


Wait... why would anyone who had seen a horse know it wasn't (besides rune)? It says it can't look like a specific creature, it doesn't say it can't look like a generic creature of race/species X. I could make it look perfectly like a giant spider, but not specifically like the giant spider my gnomish friends were eaten by.


It is the "always looks like some fantastical creature" bit. So you can't have a horse, but maybe a pink unicorn.

Plus, we have generally agreed that you can't alter the appearance to give it mechanical benefits. Making it look exactly like a giant spider (the actual, in game creature) would confuse the knowledge checks to identify if you covered up the rune. You an make it look 'like' a giant spider, and heck, some know nothing commoner without any ranks in the appropriate knowledges couldn't tell the difference (although, with the horse example, I would give the commoner a DC 5 for the knowledge check since it is a common animal). But actually making it look like a giant spider well enough to confuse a knowledge check could require the disguise skill.

Admittedly, you could just get the skilled (disguise) evolution and just give your creature minor shapeshifting (look up the mimic octopus for a real world example of this method) to cover looking like the creature you want it to. I would still say that there are limits to even that, but they are mostly about which evolutions you have compared to the target's shape (looking like some type of bird while not having wings would be rather hard)


Quote:
but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature

You could posit that so long as the thing you're mimicking is already a fantastical creature, you could mimick that creature type perfectly, but I'd have to conclude that the intent was that someone who had seen a giant spider would be able to tell the difference just as someone who had seen a horse would. But that gets into RAI, so you may not see it that way. Fooling stablehands into thinking an eidolon is a horse is pretty much out, though, barring magical effect or a really good Disguise roll.


Well, I guess I could make it look exactly like a drider... well, at least until I go into the underdark, because it's not exactly fantastic for them. So are we saying something is fantastic based upon the viewers? So it has shapeshifting to change into something fantastic for each viewers or some such? Who determines what is fantastic? Like... where is the guideline for fantastic?

I personally feel a kobold is a fantastic creature, but in his own home I highly doubt Greebin the Ugly Kobold is found fantastic by his mother.


When in doubt, add more eyes, limbs, and horns.

When I said shapeshifting, I meant for the disguise skill's handwave so you can look like something "normal". With that, the no nothing commoner would have to do really well on a perception check to notice that the horse he found has tentacles slipping out occasionally or that its head is not quite the right shape and its legs too long


lemeres wrote:
When in doubt, add more eyes, limbs, and horns.

Also works to houserule that fantastic creature part out. Bit arbitrary anyway.


The intent of the eidolon's appearance being "fantastical" is that it is visually distinct from all existing specific creatures. It's unlike anything anyone has ever seen exactly. Someone who is familiar with demons will not mistake your eidolon as a balor (barring attempts at disguise and illusion). The exact degree of resemblance and in-world connections is something to work out with you DM.


Arbitrary... so true. Fine, I'll just make him look like Guyver, grab a chest, crawl into it whenever he's fighting.

Bad Guy: Hey creepy dude, why are you carrying that chest?
Eidolon: Nunya, now prepare to die!

I'll just sit in there with my wand of CLW, and life linking the big guy as needed. Heal up until he needs another link.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blahpers wrote:
Quote:
but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature
You could posit that so long as the thing you're mimicking is already a fantastical creature, you could mimick that creature type perfectly, but I'd have to conclude that the intent was that someone who had seen a giant spider would be able to tell the difference just as someone who had seen a horse would. But that gets into RAI, so you may not see it that way. Fooling stablehands into thinking an eidolon is a horse is pretty much out, though, barring magical effect or a really good Disguise roll.

The intent is that an eidolon is going to be obviously different from any creature you try to mimic. You might fool someone to think that it's a creature, but not to anyone who's seen the real thing.

You can not ride inside it. The only option for that is the synthesis archetype. You can ride ON the mount IF you have the mount evolution purchased for it.

The cosmetic change becomes a violation the moment it impacts on mechanics, whether by alteration, negation, or substitution.


Essentially, with the right evolutions, you can fool those dang nosy kids that were passing tales about the six legged bearfish around the campfire, but not someone who has throughly read and written a desertion about Ichthus-Ursidae Sexpoddes, even if he has never seen a live one in person.

For the horse analogy, it is like you are using a donkey. Sure, they might be superficially similar, but the details seem off.


LazarX wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Quote:
but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature
You could posit that so long as the thing you're mimicking is already a fantastical creature, you could mimick that creature type perfectly, but I'd have to conclude that the intent was that someone who had seen a giant spider would be able to tell the difference just as someone who had seen a horse would. But that gets into RAI, so you may not see it that way. Fooling stablehands into thinking an eidolon is a horse is pretty much out, though, barring magical effect or a really good Disguise roll.

The intent is that an eidolon is going to be obviously different from any creature you try to mimic. You might fool someone to think that it's a creature, but not to anyone who's seen the real thing.

You can not ride inside it. The only option for that is the synthesis archetype. You can ride ON the mount IF you have the mount evolution purchased for it.

The cosmetic change becomes a violation the moment it impacts on mechanics, whether by alteration, negation, or substitution.

Exactly. As a player, you can flavor it however you like (though you may have to keep it in your head if its PFS, as they don't really go for reskinning things), but as a character the summoner is subject to all of the mechanics of whatever features the summoner and the eidolon actually have. Even if you pretend the summoner is riding inside the eidolon (and hey, this game is all about pretending), enemies can still attack the summoner as if the summoner was astride a horse, and the summoner can fall off of the "saddle" under the same conditions as if you were riding it like a horse.


Kind of like... the plating keeping me in is just strong enough to do that unless some outside circumstance would cause more muscle stress on the guy. Also, the thin nature of the plating doesn't provide any cover/bonuses (which I wasn't going for anyhow) so baddies can still target me normally.

I think that sounds good. I just needed another way to explain what I had without getting cruddy about it. All that works.

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