Scavion wrote: For the record, I don't believe a generic party of 10th level adventurers without magic items could beat a Glabrezu either. That is a tough one.
Demons are usually a bit more powerful than other monsters of similar CR, especially when their summon power works - personally I think that is more a failing of the CR system not putting them at a higher CR than it is proof that a party needs permanent magic items to handle what the CR system considers appropriate.
Of course, at the same time, dice might dictate that the 10th level party vs. 1 glabrezu lasts exactly 1 standard action as the Cleric (with a little forethought and a lot of luck) nails it with a successful Dismissal spell (I give that roughly a 15% chance of working statistically, though I have never actually run a game in which a dismissal spell was cast and not successful because dice don't care what the chances are).
thenobledrake wrote: Scavion wrote: For the record, I don't believe a generic party of 10th level adventurers without magic items could beat a Glabrezu either. That is a tough one.
Demons are usually a bit more powerful than other monsters of similar CR, especially when their summon power works - personally I think that is more a failing of the CR system not putting them at a higher CR than it is proof that a party needs permanent magic items to handle what the CR system considers appropriate.
Of course, at the same time, dice might dictate that the 10th level party vs. 1 glabrezu lasts exactly 1 standard action as the Cleric (with a little forethought and a lot of luck) nails it with a successful Dismissal spell (I give that roughly a 15% chance of working statistically, though I have never actually run a game in which a dismissal spell was cast and not successful because dice don't care what the chances are). I once dismissed a Displacer Beast with some nasty template in a pocket dimension once. Good times. Even sent it somewhere it didn't belong.
I definitely agree that summoners should have a higher CR, but they don't unfortunately. Malik could be much more difficult with Summon Monster 5 as his 5th level spell. But death spells are fun! ;P
Even deadlier he could be CN and just crazy to get around that Protection from Evil.
thenobledrake wrote: Zilvar2k11 wrote: I was specifically commenting on the spells that are now minute/level and used to be hour/lvl. Spell. Singular. i never mentioned AD&D, nor am I interested in bringing it into the discussion. The spell durations for all of the stat boosting spells were 1hr/level in 3.0 and that was changed in 3.5 and PF.
The move from 3.0 to 3.5 saw an overall drop in the perceived usefulness of those spells. This is an artifact of the communication issues I alluded to in my previous post. We are not even talking on the same subject here.
thenobledrake wrote:
The 90% of my post you don't see the relevence of is simple: Spells are more powerful now than they were before 3rd edition - both the individual spell effects, and the increased number of spells available (both in the general spells per day + bonus spells system, and through access to scrolls at much lower level)
irrelevant to anything I have attempted to discuss with you.
Zilvar2k11 wrote: Sure, my DMs might have all been fast and loose with time, but I can't help but feel that you're being far too generous the other direction. I was simply showing you how far a party can travel and spend 20 rounds in round-to-round actions within 8 minutes - such as spending 10 rounds to get all these buff spells in place, walking around the ruins for a couple of minutes, having a... Searching, looking around, listening for creatures, moving cautiously/quietly/probing for traps all take signicantly longer over the course of your explorations. Merely being able to move across a straight line distance equivalent to a football field while looking at a few select points along the way is not a good representation of how I've ever seen or heard of anyone (before now) approach the game or any form of exploration.
This is another example of differing experiences causing problems with communication. Mi literally cannot comprehend of anyone approaching the game like you apparently do. It sounds reckless and would get me and my friends a good case of dead really quick.
I had forgotten the save bonus for protection from evil...we don't usually benefit for long since cloaks of resistance are more reliable and readily available in a typical game.
Zilvar2k11 wrote: i never mentioned AD&D, nor am I interested in bringing it into the discussion. The spell durations for all of the stat boosting spells were 1hr/level in 3.0 and that was changed in 3.5 and PF. I apologize, I misunderstood when you said "since 3.0" as meaning that since 3.0 they had not been long term buffs - read the wrong usage of the word.
I really don't remember the differences between 3.0 and 3.5 since I played the later for years and the former for only a few months.
Zilvar2k11 wrote: This is another example of differing experiences causing problems with communication. Mi literally cannot comprehend of anyone approaching the game like you apparently do. It sounds reckless and would get me and my friends a good case of dead really quick. How long does your party spend walking down hallways?
I guess you are right about us not being able to really have much of a conversation about any of this since you think the walking pace that the game says characters have while exploring is "reckless" speed to use while exploring.
thenobledrake wrote: Zilvar2k11 wrote: This is another example of differing experiences causing problems with communication. Mi literally cannot comprehend of anyone approaching the game like you apparently do. It sounds reckless and would get me and my friends a good case of dead really quick. How long does your party spend walking down hallways?
I guess you are right about us not being able to really have much of a conversation about any of this since you think the walking pace that the game says characters have while exploring is "reckless" speed to use while exploring.
Depends on the hallway. In our last game, for example, we ran into a trap early in one of the hallways of a temple. That trap did significant damage to the party paladin. The paladin was healed and we moved on, but at a slower pace because we ended up spending a lot more move actions search for traps. There are no specific rules in the perception skill (at least not on the srd) to indicate How Much Area is searched and our DM ruled that it caused us to move at half-speed. We spent a lot of time moving because of that, as well as time spent listening at doors (and some really ill-advised time spent waiting while the halfling went off on his own to explore...)
The point is, a lot of stuff happens, and just moving forward has always been a good way to get good and dead. The end result is that our 40-minute buffs were running on empty by the time we reached the end of the temple. Also, our fights tend to 8-10 rounds rather than 3-5. Only one person in the party can roll worth a squat. :/
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thenobledrake wrote: Aranna wrote: Democratus wrote: His quote compared using CRB as opposed to "doing whatever I like". Which isn't a system. His quote was in response to the running argument between his system and thenobledrake's. "doing whatever I like" was him putting down the competing system, not literal.
Not to mention that my system is actually following the core rule book at least as much as manguskn's is.
Where he looks only to wealth by level for his treasure placements... I use the book's recommendations on treasure per encounter, the treasure portion of a monster's stat block, and the wealth by level table (though only for creating characters above 1st level). And I look at the WBL table and the actual table of treasures in an AP module (which are the only things I run nowadays, hence my constant caveat that I am only talking about those in regards to WBL balance).
And AP's mostly support my assertion that the developers themselves adhere to a number which approximates WBL for the parameters of a four player character party +20% to account for missed treasures. It has been a constant in the four AP's I've broken down in that manner.
And, honestly, I don't give a damn what system you want to use. It's your campaign, if you want and they want, you can throw popcorn at your players as a character reward. But what I am saying is that WBL is a definite number around which things are balanced in Pathfinder and not adhering close to it will tend to throw the game out of whack.
The amount of that imbalance is debatable, since some GM's (mostly the experienced ones) can more easily navigate around it and there are many other factors to take into account, also. But denying that wildly diverging from WBL affects your game at all is ridiculous. It does affect it, if you don't notice it you are simply more adept at compensating for it than others are.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Majuba wrote: magnuskn wrote: Pathfinder really needs to return to the automatic resizing rules magic weapons had in 3.0 or have some disenchanting mechanic, like we got in World of Warcraft. I especially never understood why automatic resizing was taken out of the game, since it only applies to weapons and armors, while other magic items still resize for the most part. Are small martial characters not screwed enough already? I don't believe there has ever been automatic resizing rules in the books, for weapons at least, and probably armor. If you can find some I'd be curious. 3.0 didn't *have* weapon sized differently for wielders - small characters had to finesse tiny weapons (daggers), one-hand small (light mace), and two-hand medium (longsword). <Gets out his old, beaten up 3.0 Dungeon Master Guide>
You seem to be correct about weapons, which is somewhat of a bummer. As in regards to armor (and other magic items like Rings and Wondrous Items), here's a direct quote from page 176 of the 3.0 DMG:
"When an article of magic clothing, jewelry or armor is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. As a rule, size should not keep overweight characters, characters of various genders, or characters of various kinds from using magic items. Players shouldn't be penalized for choosing a halfling character or deciding that their character is especially tall."
They took out the part about armor in 3.5 and Pathfinder followed suit.
Somewhat amazing that the 3.0 version of the game is more progressive in that regard than the following versions. ^^ But then again I've never run into a GM whom had decided that the Pathfinder boobplates worn by many female martials can't be fitted to a manly breast, so maybe the resizing is just a bit more underhanded here than in the days of 3.0. :p
I pretty much agree with the OP on the WBL point, but admittedly, I've not GM'd a game since before 3rd Edition, and things were less balance oriented then.
In the spirit of this thread, though, has anyone tried running a game using the random item tables from Ultimate Equipment? Curious how/if that has worked out if so.
Zilvar2k11 wrote: Depends on the hallway. In our last game, for example, we ran into a trap early in one of the hallways of a temple. That trap did significant damage to the party paladin. The paladin was healed and we moved on, but at a slower pace because we ended up spending a lot more move actions search for traps. There are no specific rules in the perception skill (at least not on the srd) to indicate How Much Area is searched and our DM ruled that it caused us to move at half-speed. Unless searching a particular area is put into the scale of minutes, searching and moving at "half speed" is actually the pace I provided.
Spending a single move action to proceed forward after spending a standard action to search - though you are right that they don't give a hard action cost on most uses of perception.
Of course, then there is Stonecunning with Dwarves and the Trap Spotter Rogue talent that you can use for automatic checks to find traps when approaching within 10 feet if you are really worried about running into a lot of traps in halls rather than on doors or chests.
Zilvar2k11 wrote: We spent a lot of time moving because of that, as well as time spent listening at doors (and some really ill-advised time spent waiting while the halfling went off on his own to explore...) Listening at a door definitely shouldn't be more than a full round action unless your goal is to just listen in on a conversation, rather than identify that there are creatures in the room before entering or choosing to go somewhere else.
Zilvar2k11 wrote: The point is, a lot of stuff happens, and just moving forward has always been a good way to get good and dead. And my point is that a lot of stuff does happen, but doesn't take nearly as long as you think that it does according to what the game rules do say on the matter.
Cthulhudrew wrote: In the spirit of this thread, though, has anyone tried running a game using the random item tables from Ultimate Equipment? Curious how/if that has worked out if so. Those tables actually work pretty great, in my opinion.
I should say, however, that using them results in much less potent magical arms and armor than a lot of people tend to hand out - such as most magic weapons handed out at level 10 still being +1 enhancement bonus (possibly with a special ability) rather than the +3-ish items that seem typical to other methods of treasure distribution.
thenobledrake wrote: Zilvar2k11 wrote: We spent a lot of time moving because of that, as well as time spent listening at doors (and some really ill-advised time spent waiting while the halfling went off on his own to explore...) Listening at a door definitely shouldn't be more than a full round action unless your goal is to just listen in on a conversation, rather than identify that there are creatures in the room before entering or choosing to go somewhere else.
Zilvar2k11 wrote: The point is, a lot of stuff happens, and just moving forward has always been a good way to get good and dead. And my point is that a lot of stuff does happen, but doesn't take nearly as long as you think that it does according to what the game rules do say on the matter.
The minimum time to listen at a door is a round (or StdAction). My groups do not believe that's enough time to determine residence. It's too much of a crapshoot. Typically time spent is on the order of 3-5 rounds, depending on what we've encountered.
That's paid off for us multiple times. What works for you, at your table, by what you perceive to be a strict reading of the rules, would very likely end up with you rolling new characters at our table. So, I'll repeat, 1 min/lvl buffs are, At My Table, typically single encounter buffs and do not often last long enough to be considered top-tier spells to learn (protection from evil being an exception, only because it's ridiculously good against some types of enemies). In a shameless appeal to popularity, I'd suspect that my experiences are far closer to the norm than yours based off my experience in this and other forums, but that's pure supposition. Feel free to laugh and ignore, of course.
So, to further return to my original points, no, I don't think you'd fare well against the ghost. And no, I don't think that you can adequetly cover for the high save DCs present on CR-appropriate encounters (through level+3) without magic item support. All of this caveated by 'at my table' and 'in my experience'. But continue to have a great time at your table, because that's what the game is really about...having a great time. :)
If you let the group go about it's business safely and efficiently then you can get several encounters out of 1 min/level spells. The best way to push it back down to one encounter is to give them treasure they need to divide up. Groups can waste a lot of time dividing loot.
That is a good point Aranna - treasure can really change the pace of exploration.
My group tends to use a procedure of checking through (via quickly rifling through while using detect magic) the treasure to see if any item present might be of immediate use, and leaving behind anything that isn't for later collection - so as not to be weighed down by loot in the middle of battle.
That only changes if the party is pretty sure they won't be able to come back later on, in which case they grab up what they can carry and take off - counting and splitting is done at camp or in town, not in dangerous places while your buff spells tick away their duration.
Ha. My group also generally does not stop to loot the dead--we come back to it later. By the mid-levels, all the important min/level buffs get put on with a lesser extend metamagic rod, of which we carry around several. By the time those buffs are gone, we've usually either blitzkrieged everything we needed to, or we're ready to rest because the castys are all out of spells. It winds up being almost literally a 15-minute adventuring day. Then we go back and loot. We do scan rooms with detect magic and grab anything obviously magical, but stopping to pull a cure light wounds potion off of each dead mook? We can take care of that later.
That is 3 additional rounds per encounter to factor in. ;)
You don't know the strength and location of each aura until the third round of concentration, after all. Plus any actions required to loot.
We could move faster if we didn't loot after each fight, true, but that's more murder than hobo, and that might be a hard sell for the group! :) :)
I am currently playing in a 3.5 game where the GM has designed custom elemental-themed artifacts, one for each party member. It provides a theme for the campaign. They are fun, though the design of the artifacts does take away some character design decisions from players since you want to optimize your use of the artifact. We are currently 18th level.
If one were to calculate the gp value of the artifacts it would be huge and it would totally knock us off the WBL scale. The GM compensates for this by adjusting the CR of encounters up by about 4 or 5 levels. We know the boss monster of the adventure we are in is a CR 29 monster and we don't know if he has any upgrades that raise that or how many minions he will have when we find him.
The campaign is fun, but there are a lot of things that just don't work, mainly involving spellcasting. Our Wizard isn't especially optimized though he's not bad and his artifact lets him do wonders with metamagic. But at the CR we are at, every monster makes almost every save, and summoned monsters are completely useless because their CR is not adjusted upwards.
Having experienced this distortion of a game first-hand I would prefer a game where the enemies are CR-appropriate. In other words the GM is doing his PLAYERS a favour by using WBL.
Peet
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