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I've so far noticed a semi-disturbing trend for the low-tier Season 5 scenarios. Both so far have been heavily diplomacy based.
Now, there's nothing wrong with that, per se; and I fully understand, we can't just toss 2nd level characters into the Worldwound. But diplomatic-type missions aren't everyone's cup of tea (I don't personally mind, myself), but it does feel a bit of a slap in the face to some... Season 5, Year Of The Demon, et cetera.. and you get to be the messenger-boys.
I am hoping to see at least one or two Scenarios come out this Season that have a bit more.. meat.. on them.
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Personally, I feel the opposite.
One of the scenarios was a super fun political intrigue with very little combat that I enjoyed thoroughly. The other, which I GMed, was just about a perfect mix of role-playing encounters and combat encounters, and the combat was tough!
I am VERY happy with how Season 5 is shaping up.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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To my mind, a good scenario will combine excellent RP with challenging scenarios. There have been several scenarios which have leaned more heavily in one way or another. There's been a good mix. But, just as we don't print scenarios with no combat,we don't do scenarios with no roleplay. I think the campaign is going in a good direction.
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Oh, don't misunderstand; we've all had fun. In fact, I just got done running Stolen Heir. The final 'encounter' broke down into about an hour's worth (in real-time) discussion and back-and-forth, with the characters and players agonizing over what the best solution was.
>.> Me already enjoying playing devil's advocate didn't help their choice much there. :D
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I believe my interest in Pathfinder would simply disappear if frequent purely diplomatic scenarios did indeed become the trend. I'm the sort of person that enjoys making sure all the things have been thoroughly beaten until such time as even their twitching has ceased. That being said, roleplay has its place as well. While I do hope to see more scenarios that are just grueling combat fests from start to finish, I wouldn't mind seeing more scenarios that balance between HULK SMASH talking as well.
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If anything late Season 3, Season 4 and now Season 5 scenarios are trying to include OPTIONS for players. This has presented some difficulty to players used to being murder hobos. The idea of being able to discuss things peacefully OR stab them in the face is ideal in my opinion. Season 5 has been great for 'talk your way through some things or be sneeky' and you gain an advantage in later encounters. If you don't want the advantage and want it harder, just go around stabbing things.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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If anything late Season 3, Season 4 and now Season 5 scenarios are trying to include OPTIONS for players. This has presented some difficulty to players used to being murder hobos. The idea of being able to discuss things peacefully OR stab them in the face is ideal in my opinion. Season 5 has been great for 'talk your way through some things or be sneeky' and you gain an advantage in later encounters. If you don't want the advantage and want it harder, just go around stabbing things.
We just had a discussion after playing The Stolen Heir about the noticeable difference in tone between previous seasons and Season 5. There's a really clear difference in how you have to go about finding the plot of the scenario and what you're supposed to do. It was confusing at first, but now it's gotten both entertaining and a little exhausting, since suddenly there's a ton of things to do with your brain other than a lot of math. Some of our players like it, others don't, but I think in general the response has been positive.
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I should point out, I think; I'm not talking about the encounters itself, as much as the general feel.
"There's a lot of bad juju happening involving the Worldwound and demons!" "Yes. Yes there is. Now go ask some people for help." XP
In other words, I'm looking at it from more the 'fluff' viewpoint than the 'crunch'. The combats are still fine..
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If anyone's curious; technical spoiler, but since this is in the GM area, nosy players need to shoo anyway.
In The Stolen Heir,
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". . . considering as a Pathfinder you're supposed to put the Society's needs first. . ."
Says who?
I'd probably rank it more along the lines of:
0.) your faith <if a divine or religious character>
1.) nearest and dearest
2.) needs of the world
3.) self and personal culture/nationality
4.) Pathifinder Society, your Faction, & also all other small group affiliations
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". . . considering as a Pathfinder you're supposed to put the Society's needs first. . ."Says who?
I'd probably rank it more along the lines of:
0.) your faith <if a divine or religious character>
1.) nearest and dearest
2.) needs of the world
3.) self and personal culture/nationality
4.) Pathifinder Society, your Faction, & also all other small group affiliations
You're on a mission for the Pathfinder Society, though. You can say "My character would prioritize all these other things before the Pathfinders," but if/when you do, don't be surprised if you cost yourself some prestige. Remember, the prestige in Season 5 doesn't come from Almas (or Oppara, or Sothis, or wherever) - it comes from Skyreach.
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". . . considering as a Pathfinder you're supposed to put the Society's needs first. . ."Says who?
I'd probably rank it more along the lines of:
Spoiler:0.) your faith <if a divine or religious character>
1.) nearest and dearest
2.) needs of the world
3.) self and personal culture/nationality
4.) Pathifinder Society, your Faction, & also all other small group affiliations
I actually created a list like this for my (now-retired) cleric, ranking what his priorities would be:
1)Asmodeus2a)Self
2b)Pathfinder Society
4)Qadira
I found it helped me a lot in role-play situations in determining what his actions would be. I did lose prestige by refusing to do some missions in cases where priorities conflicted. And there were a couple of scenarios where if it wasn't for the "no-pvp" rules...
Since then I've created a list for all my characters (with individual priorities), and it really has been helpful.
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What a great exercise for building the personalities of your characters. Here are mine:
Sparrow (paladin/gunslinger):
1. The weak and downtrodden.
2. Goodness/Justice
3. Iomedae.
4. Silver Crusade.
5. Her companions.
6. Self.
7. Pathfinder Society.
Zrinka (cleric/temple courtesan of Calistria):
1. Calistria.
2. Right.
3. Self.
4. Andoran.
5. Pathfinder Society.
Boomer (mildly insane barbarian alchemist):
1. Self.
Ezgael (eldritch knight)
1. Pursuit of knowledge/power.
2. Pathfinder Society/Grand Lodge.
3. Self.
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This is interesting. Why would a barbarian alchemist who only values himself ever join the Pathfinder Society in the first place? If he truly only values himself, how the heck did he survive 3 years of training as an initiate or ever earn a field commission?
I wonder if this is worth a thread of its own..
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This is interesting. Why would a barbarian alchemist who only values himself ever join the Pathfinder Society in the first place? If he truly only values himself, how the heck did he survive 3 years of training as an initiate or ever earn a field commission?
I wondered if someone would ask that. :) It is a marriage of convenience. He benefits the society in doing what he does very well, and the society benefits him by giving him a support structure that he lacks.
Also, they let him blow stuff up. (Did I mention the insanity?)
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if anything ... Season 5 has had me thinking more about what my PC's would do ... some would be more into a diplomatic solution ... some it doesnt matter to ... others still follow the Idea of Aggressive Negotiation ....
Season 5 has been a breath of fresh air to me ... I can actually try to play my character rather than a wandering Murder Hobo stereotype ... I can make these decisions based on the personality / backstory / profession .. and even the direction the character is going
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This is interesting. Why would a barbarian alchemist who only values himself ever join the Pathfinder Society in the first place? If he truly only values himself, how the heck did he survive 3 years of training as an initiate or ever earn a field commission?I wondered if someone would ask that. :) It is a marriage of convenience. He benefits the society in doing what he does very well, and the society benefits him by giving him a support structure that he lacks.
Also, they let him blow stuff up. (Did I mention the insanity?)
So my response that that would be, if he still only lists himself as the only one he needs to listen to, why would the Pathfinder Society be willing to put up with him? They have plenty of agents who are willing to fall in line with the global hierarchy.
(this is all coming from a player with a goblin PC...)
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I always thought there should be consequences for putting other interests first before the Pathfinder Society. Perhaps a few more negative boons on chronicles if players do certain things (like release key NPCs or something) because they're Andoran or Silver Crusade or because their God would want them to. The Decemvirate really doesn't care about your God or your beliefs.
More players would benefit from reading certain parts of Seeker of Secrets or the Society Primer before making their characters. Of course, the hope is that #5-08 gets players thinking about why they're joining the Society in the first place and how their character fits in with the goals of the entire community.
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This is interesting. Why would a barbarian alchemist who only values himself ever join the Pathfinder Society in the first place? If he truly only values himself, how the heck did he survive 3 years of training as an initiate or ever earn a field commission?I wondered if someone would ask that. :) It is a marriage of convenience. He benefits the society in doing what he does very well, and the society benefits him by giving him a support structure that he lacks.
Also, they let him blow stuff up. (Did I mention the insanity?)
So my response that that would be, if he still only lists himself as the only one he needs to listen to, why would the Pathfinder Society be willing to put up with him? They have plenty of agents who are willing to fall in line with the global hierarchy.
(this is all coming from a player with a goblin PC...)
You are right. I will retire him. (He is also a goblin, sort of. )
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Kyle, with you on this point. Especially if, going forward, there's going to be further emphasis on the Society beyond it just being an excuse to toss random adventurers together. Maybe it's just terrible luck, but it feels like I've run into more than a few characters who. . . well, they wouldn't come across as too functional at a UFOlogist convention, never mind the political minefield that they're being tossed into with the Society this year.
EDIT: I'm not trying to say someone playing a character that's a bit off is having badwrongfun, but if the game is going to start hinging results on the players being able to pass for normal, this is a discussion that's going to start coming up in ways it wouldn't have back when most scenarios were entirely about hitting things or, at worst, having one character make a diplomacy check or two. It's a change in style and tone.
My Taldan noble, of the variety of "We who are more privileged and who are born with greater intelligence should do our best to help those who were less fortunate instead of squander our gifts" wound up a few scenarios ago in a 5-9 with a party of 4 allies who together added up to lower than her in Intelligence, adding all 4 of them together (this was only possible because one of them was a 5 Int nagaji). She basically wound up like a kindergarten teacher the whole scenario explaining terms like "extradimensional demiplane" (didn't help that the scenario's success and secondary success depended on attuning a demiplane with Knowledge skills, though she managed to pull it off). She was despairing for the sake of the whole Society until her very next adventure was with a magus, another wizard, and a witch, all of whom were pretty scholastic and into her whole idea of doing tons of research to try to get the secondary goal.
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I love the roleplaying opportunities arising with Season 5. If someone is really hung up on missing out on a scenario murderfest, then run the older stuff for them.
Sending low level characters into the worldwound is just asking to employ more undertakers. If I was CRing Golarion, the Worldwound would not be a place for anyone under level 5.
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You are right. I will retire him.That's not what I was getting at all. I'm just trying to point out that PFS characters need to have some reason for the Decemvirate and Venture-Captains to keep them around and should be willing to fall into line (however loosely).
Why?
Sometimes a character's unique abilities will outweigh a lack of loyalty to the group. There are many examples of this in pop literature, especially in fantasy.
Here are a few:
Wolverine (X-Men)
Raistlin (Dragonlance)
Gollum (Lord of the Rings)
Han Solo & Lando (Star Wars)
But do go on, I am really interested in hearing how I should play my characters.
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Just to interject, was I the only one who wanted to smother Raistlin with a pillow after yet another of his rants/ actions while his disease riddle body wheezed and groaned?
If so, I apologise.
THe Fox: I dont have any issue what Kyle was getting at. The campaign is Pathfinder society. It assumes that each character is a committed member who is working for the societies goals. These characters might grumble about those goals at times, might talk smack to venture captains during briefings.. hell they might not even listen to the briefing and 5 seconds later ask another character 'What did he want us to do again?', but at the end of the day they have been somewhat trained by the society/ recruited. If a character was purely interested in a monetary recompense but still be good at finding things, then its likely they might join the Aspis.
Id also point out that Lando essentially sold out the group he was later to join (sortoff). If that happened in a Pathfinder game, you would find that 98 percent of the other Pathfinders would never adventure with him. 1 percent wouldnt care and the other 1 percent would not have listened to any of the block text and thus would have no idea where to go to find him anyway.
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If a character was purely interested in a monetary recompense but still be good at finding things, then its likely they might join the Aspis.
Why? They are always getting their asses handed to them by the Pathfinders. If a character is truly selfish, then the Pathfinder Society is not a bad gig.
From the Society's standpoint, even if a character is not overly loyal to them, said character can quite likely be extremely useful. Who do you send when you want stuff blown up? Boomer. Who do you send when you need to deal with nasty goblins? Boomer. He is good at those things. He likes fire. He actually likes being around goblins. Why WOULDN'T you send him?
Another thing I'd like to point out regarding this character, just because he feels no loyalty to the Pathfinder Society, does not mean that he is actually DISloyal. His loyalty has yet to be tested. As long as the Pathfinders keep scratching his back, he will keep scratching theirs, so to speak.
The really amusing thing is that he currently belongs to the Silver Crusade. (He was Shadow Lodge and he DID feel loyalty to them, but when he switched, he chose at random. Literally.)
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Personally, I find that a creative PC can find a way to make every situation work for the Society, the PCs goals and their own benefit. Uncreative PCs may have more issues. In general, this struggle isn't much of an issue - the goals are overlapping in many areas. Where they do not overlap, it is rare that there are competing goals that are that terribly important.
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Personally, I find that a creative PC can find a way to make every situation work for the Society, the PCs goals and their own benefit. Uncreative PCs may have more issues. In general, this struggle isn't much of an issue - the goals are overlapping in many areas. Where they do not overlap, it is rare that there are competing goals that are that terribly important.
I concur. Despite, as you can see in the other thread, a lot of my characters who have faction low on the list of loyalties, I've never had a problem getting faction missions (Cordelia has some issues when she feels like Gloriana Morilla is letting her down with "Dalsinesque" missions like in Rise of the Goblin Guild, but she just refused to do those and did the Season 4 meta-mission when that happened). I can't imagine any of my characters would have trouble getting the secondary success conditions in any of the scenarios I can think of either, despite the median rating of the Society as 5th or so for my characters.
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If a character was purely interested in a monetary recompense but still be good at finding things, then its likely they might join the Aspis.Why? They are always getting their asses handed to them by the Pathfinders. If a character is truly selfish, then the Pathfinder Society is not a bad gig.
Again, I say this:
You can say "My character would prioritize all these other things before the Pathfinders," but if/when you do, don't be surprised if you cost yourself some prestige.
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Personal motivations are all good; and it -is- a good character-building exercise. I cited from reading the guide and all when I started (don't ask for specific edition/pages, I don't recall); and it was brought up that your duties to the Society as a whole is focus one, whereas your personal Faction goals are focus two. Or are at least -supposed to be-. After all, that's why the faction missions were "secondary", yeah? :P
That being said, if you can do it well, there's no reason you have to hold to that. Say I make an Osiriani. MY focus is on retrieving Osirion artifacts... the Society recovers artifacts and locks them away. I might as well work with the Society to at least get first crack at finding and figuring said artifacts out. In that case, my first priority is obviously Faction, but with a strong reason to continue aiding the Society.
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Draven: Unlikely re Zarta eso the Tiefling angle. The Cheliax book specifically states that a Chelaxian for the most part does NOT have 'relations with that devil', as in a twisted way it means they are lowering themselves to that level. Tieflings are thus treated as scum... an indiscretion that had a physical end in a kid. Cheliax is not a place you would want to be a Tiefling.
As to Zarta directly, having kids would be a political weakness that could be exploited. She would avoid that.
As to Zarta directly, having kids would be a political weakness that could be exploited. She would avoid that.
Well I guess, that's why they invented Night Tea and Bachelor Snuff, so you can be as indiscrete as you want without "political weaknesses". ;)