I'm still a little amiss to the finer details of which boons extend their traits to a check. (I apologize for quoting multiple threads below, I hope this is not too confusing to follow.)
8. Boons that let you make checks give their traits to those checks.
If a card you play tells you how or when to make a check to acquire or defeat – and only in that case – apply that card's traits to the check.
I understand the "when" situations, as they are clearly illustrated in the following descriptions:
Ranged weapons give the Ranged trait. Magic weapons give the Magic trait. Divine spells that let you use Divine as your combat check give the Divine trait. For example, Lightning Touch tells you to make an Arcane + 2d4 combat check, and thus it applies Magic, Arcane, Attack, Electricity, and Basic traits to the check. Guidance, on the other hand, does not tell you to make a check, so it does not apply any of its traits to the check, regardless of the fact that it is only used in checks.
I'm not understanding the "how" aspect. Perhaps this has to do with evasion?
Immunity may not be in the right place. Discussing.Maybe there should be a note or something for or before evade, explaining that you still have to check the card to see if it can't be evaded (e.g. Grindylow) or if it has a trait that would prevent you from evading it (e.g. Ancient Skeleton is immune to mental, so Invisibility couldn't be used to evade it).
I think the second part is important, because as written, you check for immunity after choosing to evade it or not.
It makes sense that the Sleep spell applies the mental trait so you cannot use sleep against a monster that is immune to Mental. Is this the correct application of a card telling you "how to defeat" and thus giving its traits?
(As a side note does Invisibility have the Mental trait? Everyone seems to think it does, even though it doesn't say so on the card. Maybe I missed an errata on that card?)
Additionally, do spells like Fiery Weapon or the second power in Fire Sneeze apply all of their card traits to the combat check? Both these cards clearly state that the Fire trait is added, but I think this might be a case where these cards are telling you "how" and also add Magic, Arcane, Divine and (Attack for Fire Sneeze).
Hi @Drunkenping,
My understanding of traits and cards and all that goodness is as follows:
- the ONE card you use in the "Determine which die/skill you are using" step of the encounter adds its traits to the check. Some powers may also explicitly say that they add traits to the check (e.g. Seoni's blast power)
- cards/powers you play during the "Affect the check" step of the encounter do NOT add their traits. E.g. if you play mace in the "Determine which die/skill you are using" step it adds its traits to the check. If you then play a dagger as a second weapon during the "Affect the check" step, it does NOT add its traits (like ranged) to the check.
- when playing cards outside of a check (e.g. evade) then they do not add their traits as such. It's just that you cannot play cards that have traits to which the target is immune. (In other words, evading is before the check itself)
- I don't have the cards with me at the moment so I can't look up invisibility. Sleep, however, definitely does have the Mental trait and cannot be used on Skeletons!
I hope that helps!
I think I understand what you are saying about the ONE card you are using to enhance your check against your encounter.
Fire Sneeze (2nd power) and Fiery Weapon are exceptions to this rule and thus we follow what is written on those cards for adding traits.
Thematically I feel a little uneasy with this idea. It would make sense that a Fiery Weapon should still count as adding Magic to your combat check. But it does not.
If you smash a skeleton with a mace that is all good, but shouldn't adding a dagger into its side (in addition to the mace) reflect an increase difficulty to defeat the skeleton by 3? I guess not.
Actually spells/magic in general may cause a lot of grief, thematically. A Fire Sneeze is an attack spell that can be used by either branch of casters - Arcane or Divine. Naturally both traits are listed on the card, but in reality when playing the spell for your combat check I feel like it should only have the trait that matches what die you are using. This probably doesn't matter as I don't recall any cards so far that are immune or resistant to the Arcane or Divine traits.
That's right - using the dagger as a second weapon doesn't make skeletons harder and playing guidance, aid or fiery weapon doesn't make the check magic.
We'll have to see what happens with Fire Sneeze's dual traits and future banes!
I'm also curious to see if any monsters will have immunity to the Magic trait in later expansions. I'm hopping not as this would be a far bigger headache than immunity to the Mental trait. I assume you couldn't even play spells like Guidance against a creature like that. Magic armors and weapons would be useless... but their Basic counterparts would be just fine. Sadly we all would have phased out the non-magic version from our character decks long ago. That would be super hard to defeat!
You're right about immunity preventing you from playing cards with a certain trait (even if they don't add their traits to the check). I think...
Sounds like a great idea for a foe. Lini will have to fight him paw and claw :)
I'm also curious to see if any monsters will have immunity to the Magic trait in later expansions.
It's not exactly what you mentioned, but... when you get The Skinsaw Murders, look for the Scarecrow Golem.
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Hint to Pathfinder RPG players: it has the trait Construct.I'm also curious to see if any monsters will have immunity to the Magic trait in later expansions.It's not exactly what you mentioned, but... when you get The Skinsaw Murders, look for the Scarecrow Golem.
Let me guess - add 3 to the difficulty if your check to defeat doesn't have the adamantine trait (which we haven't even seen yet).
In general, I'd say I understand how this process works (I think). That is, when you're making a check and play a card that specifically defines the die/dice to use for the check, that card's traits are added. Similarly, if you use a power that specifically adds a trait, that's obvious.
What's less obvious to me is exactly how things work when you play a card that allows to you to succeed at a check WITHOUT making a roll. Cards like Boots of Elvenkind, Tome of Knowledge, Potion of Glibness, and many more work in this way. Since these cards would be played, technically, before the assemble your dice step, and result in automatic success, one interpretation could be that you're actually skipping the "assemble your dice" and "make the roll" steps.
So, first and foremost, would that say that these cards add their traits? They don't specifically tell you which die to use, but since they could possibly be skipping the dice steps, I'm not clear on the trait issue. Any feedback on this one?
Part of the reason I'm asking is in anticipation of one of the new villains in AP2... (see This thread.)
In that particular situation, the crown of charisma (which has the magic trait) might very well be a useful item to have, assuming it confers its traits to the check.
Part of the reason I'm asking is in anticipation of one of the new villains in AP2... (see This thread.)
In that particular situation, the crown of charisma (which has the magic trait) might very well be a useful item to have, assuming it confers its traits to the check.
Vic just replied to that thread clearly ruling that no, the crown does not add it's traits since it can't be played until the "Play cards and use powers that affect the check" step. I'd assume the cards your thinking of would fall under the same ruling.
I don't think that auto-pass cards add their traits, it's just that you cannot play them if the target is immune to any of their traits.
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In general, I'd say I understand how this process works (I think). That is, when you're making a check and play a card that specifically defines the die/dice to use for the check, that card's traits are added. Similarly, if you use a power that specifically adds a trait, that's obvious.
What's less obvious to me is exactly how things work when you play a card that allows to you to succeed at a check WITHOUT making a roll. Cards like Boots of Elvenkind, Tome of Knowledge, Potion of Glibness, and many more work in this way. Since these cards would be played, technically, before the assemble your dice step, and result in automatic success, one interpretation could be that you're actually skipping the "assemble your dice" and "make the roll" steps.
So, first and foremost, would that say that these cards add their traits? They don't specifically tell you which die to use, but since they could possibly be skipping the dice steps, I'm not clear on the trait issue. Any feedback on this one?
Auto-defeating the check is "affecting the check", so you play those cards during the "Play cards and use powers that affect the check" action. Which means you don't add the traits from them.