Flurry of Maneuvers - Armor and BAB


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

From the Maneuver Master monk archetype:

Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex) wrote:

At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.

At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks.

At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.

This ability replaces flurry of blows.

Because FoB is being replaced entirely, and there is no "This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for..." clause, by RAW it gets around the usual FoB restrictions. You can FoM in armor and with non-monk weapons, and you apply the normal adjustments to your Strength bonus for off-hand and two-handed normal attacks.

My question is, how does BAB from other classes work with FoM? FoB, as originally written, looked like it replaced a multiclassed monk's full BAB with only his monk levels. This was clarified in a FAQ some time ago:

FAQ wrote:

Monk: The monk rules for flurry state, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?

A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.

So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.

—Sean K Reynolds, 09/10/10

The entry here just says "flurry," but the errata on PFSRD calls out FoB. The FAQ ruling also pre-dates Ultimate Combat, in which (I believe) Flurry of Maneuvers first appeared.

I fear the implications for my planned Maneuver Master 1/Barbarian X. Should the FAQ stand with FoM, or is getting your full CMB in armor just trying to have your cake and eat it too?

Scarab Sages

If the pfsrd says one thing, and Paizo says another, Paizo is right. Sean's FAQ should be just as applicable to Flurry of Maneuvers as it is to Flurry of Blows.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I play Flurry of Maneuvers with two different monk builds (one that uses Full Plate and one that tries with Bracers of Armor.)

The run down of differences:
1) It isn't FoB so you can wear Full Plate, but you give up Fast Movement and AC Bonus class features if you do.

2) It isn't Flurry, so you don't get Monk level as bonus. You take a normal Full Attack as you would with a straight Fighter or a Monk who didn't FoB.

3) You can add some number of Maneuvers to the mix (+1 starting out, +2 at 8th and +3 at 15th Monk level)

4) If you add a Maneuver, it and all other Maneuvers made during your Full Attack are at a penalty (-2 starting, and -2/-5 at 8th etc)

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:


2) It isn't Flurry, so you don't get Monk level as bonus. You take a normal Full Attack as you would with a straight Fighter or a Monk who didn't FoB.

"Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks. This ability replaces flurry of blows."

He should still be replacing his monk level instead of his BAB from monk levels to determine his CMB for all maneuvers used as part of the flurry. So a Fighter 3/ Master of Maneuvers 8 should start by calculating as though he had a BAB of +11, subtract 2 from all maneuvers per the FoM rules, and then apply all other relevant bonuses and penalties.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ssalarn wrote:
He should still be replacing his monk level instead of his BAB from monk levels to determine his CMB for all maneuvers used as part of the flurry.

True, sorry my post was misleading. I was trying to make it very clear you get no benefit during the normal Full Attack part.


Essentially, when it says "use your monk level in place of BAB..." what it means is "use your monk level in place of BAB from monk levels...". Remember that all classes are written from the presumption of single-classing for the sake of word and space conservation. So, since the general rule from the Classes section is that BAB, among other things, from separate classes form a "composite BAB" of sorts for practical consideration, and no other place in the rules calls out segregating the BAB contribution from just one particular source for special consideration, Occam's Razor indicates that you treat your BAB during Flurry of Blows, Flurry of Maneuvers, or any other hypothetical ability that calls out use of BAB in a similar manner as the same composite BAB that you'd normally use except for the specific change.


Thanks all, that answered my question. That answer made the most intuitive sense, but since I'm planning to multiclass my Maneuver Master in PFS, I wanted to make sure the RAW was clear.

Lantern Lodge

Archetypes assume single classing, otherwise alot of statements would be OP:

Exotic Mount (Ex): At 1st level, a beast rider forms a bond with a strong, loyal companion that permits him to ride it as a mount. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the beast rider's level as his effective druid level. The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character).

What is the beast rider's level? Well, 20 of course! 1-beast rider 19-mounted fury (Barbarian)!!

Sczarni

you should read the dev comment about BAB with synthesists summoners that are multi-classed.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
[...]

Not sure I understand what you're suggesting with that example. The beast rider 1/mounted fury 19 would have an effective druid level of 1+19-4=16, yes?

The synthesist FAQ response is another good resource, thanks.

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