How much of Thassilon's history and information would be known?


Rise of the Runelords


I have two PCs who keep asking NPCs, especially Brodert, questions about Thassilon, because they took the Scholar of the Ancients trait. What I'm wondering is, the trait says they have managed to put together a partial history of Thassilon... how much of this history would they know?

Of course I know (or have available to me) all of the history Paizo has published but I'm just not sure how much they should know from the get go, how much more they can learn from the locals such as Brodert, and what I should keep secret until they discover it through the natural course of the plot. They're very suspicious of any details I give them so I want to avoid detailing anything insignificant that they might latch onto, simply so as not to disappoint them with a dead end. Of course, they ran all over Sandpoint last session trying to connect the events of the Late Unpleasantness (to no avail, at least not yet :D), searching high and low for more clues about Chopper. I led them to his island and, since no one from town has visited the island since the house burnt down, ran a little encounter with a few giant spiders who had made Chopper's Island their home. It was a fun diversion, but a bit easier to deal with that red herring than lore about an ancient civilization that not much is known about that the PCs already know something about. Anyone have any ideas to help me out with this?

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This question pops up from time to time, and the best answer is "as much as you want them to know."

Which is a copout, really, but a necessary one. When RotRL starts, nobody has an accurate understanding of what Thassilon was really like. Scholars have agreed upon certain things: there were seven Runelords, one for each of the seven schools of Thassilonian magic, and they were utter despots and incredibly powerful wizard-kings. But nobody knows what life was really like back then, and they certainly aren't aware that the Runelords survived and are just now waking back up. The only person who's got a clearer view on Thassilon is Brodert Quink, Sandpoint's eccentric scholar. He's a crackpot, but his theories happen to be right.

The best way to think about this? Stargate. In the film, Daniel is a archaeological and linguistic savant who has some unusual theories about the pyramids and Egyptian life in general. Nobody takes his theories seriously, and he's desperate to prove that his research isn't just mad speculation. That's Quink in a nutshell. His notions that Thassilon couldn't have crumbled any sooner than 10,000 years ago and that the Old Light was actually a weapon are about as insane to Golarion scholars as Daniel's claims that aliens visited the Egyptians and built their society would be to us. He knows his stuff, no doubt about it, and he doesn't disagree with the scholars on the basics, but he is baffled why people don't see that his theories hold water.

In my game, my party has just finished Burnt Offerings, and the party wizard has decided that he wants to start learning from Brodert, since there seems to be a great deal of Thassilonian stuff popping up. All I've revealed thus far has been:

1. The Empire died out about seven or eight thousand years ago. (Brodert vehemently disagrees with this, but the other learned people in Sandpoint just roll their eyes when he goes into one of his lectures.)

2. They were all ruled by seven wizards, and they perverted the seven Thassilonian virtues of rulership into what we now know as the seven deadly sins. Each of them was a specialist in sin magic, and they each had a polearm that was a symbol of office.

3. The statue in the catacombs beneath Sandpoint was a work depicting Alaznist, the Runelord of Wrath. She was an evoker, and demon worship was common in Bakrakhan, her personal fiefdom.

4. The seven pointed star on the book that Alaznist carried is the Sihedron Rune, a powerful symbol that was the standard of Thassilon. It originally symbolized the seven virtues, but was later perverted to represent the seven sins.

And that's about it. None of them speak Thassilonian (yet), and they've only just begun learning about the Empire. The big thing about the campaign is that the PCs are at the forefront of learning about the Runelords - the world has moved on, and forgotten the threat that Karzoug and the others pose. The PCs are the vector from which modern Golarion learns about the threat, and introduces a new wave of interest in this fallen society, much like the surge of interest in Egyptology that popped up after they unearthed Tutankhamen's body. (Hmmm, that's a good point, what is the word for the study of Thassilon? Thassilonology? Thassilology? Thassology? Must ponder...)


Misroi wrote:
stuff

Misroi --

THANK YOU!! This is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. As a new GM I've been having a difficult enough time fleshing out the world (especially since my players are also new the Golarion setting), and this is exactly the type of response I was looking for. The two players I mentioned in my post, having taken the Scholar of the Ancients trait, actually CAN read and speak Thassilonian (due to the trait). They did talk to Brodert but I didn't have any more information to offer that the PCs wouldn't have known (besides the Light House being an enormous siege weapon, which I made sure to imply was a crazy idea).

I guess at this point, the issue is the PCs know more than the players do about Thassilon. I'll have to give them a primer before our next session so they can be sure to have some info about Thassilon (though I could have swore they told me they read the RotRL player's guide).

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You're welcome! The best part about RotRL is that it's a perfect introduction to Golarion. The story starts off fairly normal (PCs are gathered together for one reason or another, and suddenly GOBLINS), and goes out of its way to make the PCs welcome in Sandpoint. It's supposed to feel like a normal fantasy village on the frontier, so when the PCs find out that there's something strange going on just under this town, they should be a bit unnerved. The PCs will know more about the world as it is, but both player and character will learn about how things were as the story is revealed.

One thing you might want to do is come up with some facts that the players know to be true about Thassilon. Some of them are, in fact, true, some are based on truth but misunderstood due to the loss of accurate records, and some are out and out incorrect assumptions. They should get some advantage for having taken this background trait, but it's also not carte blanche to being given the information on a civilization that existed ten thousand years ago!


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Hi Guys,

just started rotrl.

yeah i have a smialar problem with one of the pcs who decided to take thassilon as a language an belevies himself a sholar of thasslion. the main proplem is hes obviouly been reading online. which really ruins things for everyone. any suggestion on how to tackle that apart from metioning to him to stop reading random info on the net. i have thought about adding afew red herrings and bogus facts to keep him off the cent abit. i gather hes just read afew wikkis but still i feel like thats still more than they should probably know.

one of the quesions i had is should they know about the downfall of thassilion or should it remain a mystery?

any suggestions would be great.


Why not pull the player aside and explain to him that he can't use the meta-knowledge in the game and that part of the fun of Runelords is learning all this? Work with the player. Have him come up with fun crackpot ideas and the like.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yeah, I'd contact him privately and ask him to refrain from using knowledge his character doesn't have. "Hey, I'm thrilled you're excited to know more about where Runelords is going, but a lot of the story is about finding out about Thassilon and who they were. I think you'll enjoy the story more if you don't know what's coming up!"

He may not care about that, though. If he won't stop reading about it, then try to do what Tangent suggests and get him working with you to act as the party expository device. "Oh! I recognize that symbol, it's the mark of Rage! This must be a site that once belonged to Alaznist, Runelord of Wrath!"

Hopefully, he'll keep his studying to historical matters. If he starts showing signs of knowing what's coming up mechanically (suggesting that spellcasters prepare remove fear for no reason as they're planning on diving into Thistletop, for example), then you might have a bigger problem, but no sense worrying about that until you've got some clearer evidence.


Make him put skill points into Knowledge-History or similar if he wants to be able to use OOC knowledge. But otherwise, ask him to keep quiet.


A lot of the Thassilonian knowledge out there in Golarion is incorrect, or speculation. If I was GMing, if it was becoming a nuisance, I'd have him roll his Knowledge (History) and if he didn't hit the DC, he remembers incorrect information which you present as correct or can't identify something.

At the same time, if he likes the idea of being the expert, it may be fun to have him argue or debate with Brodert Quink, or have them work together and try to shame other scholars who don't know as much as they think.

Starting at Level 1, you shouldn't be a bigger expert than the level 7 Expert.


It really depends on the information he knows... if he took the Scholar of the Ancients trait, he CAN read and write Thassilonian, and he probably has a decent understanding of some Thassilonian history. Of course, the things he shouldn't know include the names of all the Runelords and their virtues/sins (not without a high DC Knowledge (history) check, anyway), how old the civilization was, how Thassilonian society worked (aside from being completely and utterly despotic). They also definitely wouldn't know specifically how Thassilon fell (knowing about the wars between the Runelords gives away much of the campaign plot iirc), but should know that it once stood as a beacon of civilization before it became corrupt and the seven virtues became the seven sins. The PCs should probably believe this to be the reason it fell, but it's common knowledge that no one REALLY knows the TRUE reason Thassilon fell.

Misroi's post does a good job of explaining what an amateur scholar who is interested in Thassilon would know from the outset. Basically, he should be able to recognize some Thassilonian symbols but he should have to make a knowledge (history) check to come up with any information about them, aside from being able to read and write Thassilonian. Use Brodert Quink to your advantage here.

As for dealing specifically with your player, warn him that he is metagaming and that if he continues down that path it could potentially spoil the plot for him and others in the campaign. If he doesn't seem interested in stopping, I might even ask him to leave the campaign.


One thing I found confusing was that in the adventure they suggest that the Thassilonian language is kind of a lost one, but then they give a trait that lets you be fluent in the language.

I've decided that Thassilonian is more like cuniform writing than hieroglyphs since it is described in the catacombs of wrath as being a spiky script. I also decided that although it not a symbol language it's an alphabet, but does contain many more characters than common alphabet, which makes it difficult to translate- some characters represent letter sounds, others represent syllables or even ideas (I realize there are technical names for all these things, but I don't have linguistics background and didn't feel like doing a bunch of reading up on it right now).


P.H. Dungeon wrote:
One thing I found confusing was that in the adventure they suggest that the Thassilonian language is kind of a lost one, but then they give a trait that lets you be fluent in the language.

Someone mentioned Stargate above, and that's where we got our inspiration on how knowledge of the language works. Daniel Jackson could read the hieroglyphics, but once he started encountering the spoken language, he had a bit of an adjustment period since no one had spoken the language in a long time.

We translated it into a major bonus to linguistics checks to figure out what someone was saying in it, and automatically being able to read the language.


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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Thanks for all that. Yeah its been a tricky one.. i sent a email individually to him to explain that if he read to much knowing to much would make alot of the plot uniteresting and pointless and also that that it would be disapointing for other players if he thoughs in spoilers. He seems to have cut back. i wish i had just made a point of this before he started... but still having fun. I might just through afew curve balls in the keep him on his toes...but im also making sure he cant do things if his character donsnt know that info....

Sovereign Court

The PC's with some amount of religious training or background should could know what Aroden taught about his homelands as well, though scholars are in agreement that his words on the subject are likely not completely representative. So anyone with access to a copy of "History and Future of Humanity" would at least have his take on life in Azlant. Clergy of Iomedae especially.


I have handled this (as I do much of the history for any campaign). I give the players that took that trait the info that seems right when it's appropriate for them to know it. I give them additional info the more they do current research.

Example they get the first Sihedron, so I let them "know" that it's a Thassilonian Talisman.

Then in Book 2 when they've started doing some research into why the Sihedron's are showing up everywhere, I give them a good amount of detail after they spend a few days in the Archives in Magnimar.

I wouldn't give them a whole bunch of info at start because that always tends to make them run wild, and go off on crazy tangents based on having knowledge that has no relavancy for them yet. It also has a tendancy to be forgotten by the time they actually need it.

I never try to rely on players remembering in game facts/history/etc... If they do, that's cool and an auto check for them. To me that's what the characters memory rolls (DC Knowledge Checks) are for, to see what the character remembers not the player.

In my experience this method gets the right information to the people that should have it when they need it. It kills the stress of trying to figure out mental puzzles based on the finer details of something that was said 4 weeks ago.

But if no one bothered to take the knowledge trait the party would be left to speculation, or hiring a scholar.


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I've got the opposite with my players...they have hired a "cartographer/scribe/amateur sage to do the paperwork for them...

This kinda means that the burden of academics has been dropped back in my lap while they tend to concentrate on the hack and blast aspects.

The job of keeping their cartographer alive has ended up in them hiring that drow dervish girl they are hell bent on redeeming to be her bodyguard...

Little by little they seem to be acquiring a small horde of employees.


My group is busy planning on opening both an Orphanage (Averta's Home for Little Bastards - the primary schemer is a bastard of Scarnetti lineage and is looked down upon by his half-brother Titus. So he wants to open up the orphanage near enough to the Scarnetti manor that they can't help but see it when heading into town) and a bank (Heroes of Sandpoint Mutual Bank). As two of them have Leadership, they're going to staff the bank and orphanage with Followers.

For that matter, they plan on recruiting six new town guard and pay for their armor and armaments after several guards died when Nualia returned to town to use the deactivated Runewell to become a half-fiend.


Tangent101 wrote:
half-brother Titus

I've a Titus in my campaign as well! He's a cohort of one of my players who thought it would be wise to get a cleric into a game of two sorcerers, a druid, and a monk. He is a cleric of Lissala (everyone else thinks he's a follower of Nethys; he Titus knows very little about Lissala, but he found this strange rune . . . ) and started as human, though after dying has subsequently been reincarnated as a goblin, which has been interesting!

Just thought the connection with the name was cool. Carry on everyone! =D


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I actually chose to have the character the half-brother of Titus Scarnetti (head of the Scarnetti noble house in Sandpoint) because of the character's age (27). I figured he'd probably be a touch old to be Titus' illegitimate son... but Titus' father was still alive at that point. So I figured he sowed a wild oat with a prostitute! ^^;; Thus the disdain Titus has for him.

It was a complete whim that came about because of the Merchant Family Trait - I chose the family at random. Since then things have gotten most interesting with the disdain of the Scarnettis for the Heroes of Sandpoint due in part to the "bastard son/brother" being a big part of that group. And the player in turn has taken this and run with it.

------------

Amusingly enough, it was the half-orc Barbarian who took the Thassilonian Scholar trait - I think of him as similar in some ways to the original Conan the Barbarian, who was not just an untutored brute but instead was cunning, intelligent, and quite knowledgeable. The player based him partly off of Beast from X-Men as well (or at least she said afterward she realized he was "Beast" just as her rogue in my other game was based somewhat on Gambit). Fortunately, while they rolled well for some discoveries, they haven't really done a huge bit with Thassilon lore. Of course, that should change when they eventually enter Book 4 (they're just entering Book 3 now).


P.H. Dungeon wrote:

One thing I found confusing was that in the adventure they suggest that the Thassilonian language is kind of a lost one, but then they give a trait that lets you be fluent in the language.

I'm not pretty sure the trait gives you fluency. In my party, the bard chose it. He's a Varisian, who used to study history to compose his songs. He met a Thassilonian expert scholar in Magnimar (I still haven't asigned an NPC to this), and kept exchanging letters. He can identify runes as Thasilonnians, and can understand some sentences, taking him 5 to 10 minutes, maybe. He won't be able to understand or identify everything (Alasnizt's statue, for example), but he should recognice the Thasilonnian origin without a skill check. He will also know some facts, both true and false.

In comparison, a PC without the trait can't understand the runes, and to identify anything as Thassilonian, a skill check is required.


Nynphaiel wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:

One thing I found confusing was that in the adventure they suggest that the Thassilonian language is kind of a lost one, but then they give a trait that lets you be fluent in the language.

I'm not pretty sure the trait gives you fluency. In my party, the bard chose it. He's a Varisian, who used to study history to compose his songs. He met a Thassilonian expert scholar in Magnimar (I still haven't asigned an NPC to this), and kept exchanging letters. He can identify runes as Thasilonnians, and can understand some sentences, taking him 5 to 10 minutes, maybe. He won't be able to understand or identify everything (Alasnizt's statue, for example), but he should recognice the Thasilonnian origin without a skill check. He will also know some facts, both true and false.

In comparison, a PC without the trait can't understand the runes, and to identify anything as Thassilonian, a skill check is required.

That's the way I'm playing it. I see it very much like reading Cuniform, or Heiroglyph's. The character has some understanding of what they mean, but he probably doesn't even know actual Thasilonian words. It's a dead language, no one is running around speaking it. But, enough knowledge remains to allow a few to read it to some degree.

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