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AC: 31 (10 Armor, 8 Nat, 3 Dex)
CMB: +21 (+29 if grappling)
CMD: 34
Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Greater Grapple
Power Attack
TBD
Evolutions:
Claws x2
Large
Grab (Claws)
Rake
Mount
Flight
Energy Attacks
Pounce
Natural Armor x2
*Skilled (Aspect)
Attacks:
Strength: 28 (+9)
BAB: +11
Size: -1
Bite +19 (1d8+9) 4 Claws +19 (2d6+9)
Except, the actual damage with Energy Attacks, Grab, Rake, and Power Attack is:
Bite +16 (1d8+1d6+9+6) 4 Claws +16 (2d6+9+6) 8 Rakes (2d6+9+6)
For a combined total of 1d8+25d6+195. Average: 287
The Eidolon will generally be flying and using the Charge action with Ride by Attack. Basically swooping down, full attack, repeat.
The Summoner will be using Evolution Surge to make sure Energy Attacks won't be resisted by changing between Cold/Fire/Electricity/Acid
If the party encounters a Large/Huge creature then I'll cast Enlarge Person and have the Eidolon grapple it continuously
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The Summoner will be using a lance with Spirited Charge, Power Attack, and high strength when more damage is needed, or just casting and using Ride checks in place of the Eidolon's saves or AC.
The Summoner's Ride will be +28 (14 ranks, 1 dex, 5 enhancement, 8 Skilled), so that's pretty much a guaranteed save and, on average, +10 to the Eidolon's AC for two hits per round.
Thoughts? I really don't know how this matches up at lv 14 but it seems pretty good. I'm concerned it might be too strong and overshadow the other players (Oracle, Ninja, Rogue).
Mounted Combat/Trick Riding
Indomitable Mount
Ride-By Attack
Some issues (I think)
Eidolon rake explicitly mentions 2 rake attacks when succeeding on a grapple check. By showing 8 rakes, are you implying you're clawing and grabbing the target 4 times? I believe you can only be in a grapple with a single target once.
Ride by attack says you can keep traveling in a straight line in the direction of the charge. If you swoop down from any significant height your straight line will be into the ground. This means you will have the not ride by them, or charge from essentially ground altitude.
Also I might add
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
This is for universal monster rake. You might make the argument that the eidolon specific rake doesn't have this text, but none of their descriptions are thoroughly exhaustive.
Bite -> Claw -> Grapple -> Drop Grapple as a free action -> Claw -> Repeat
That's the cycle I was going to use.
Also I might add
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.This is for universal monster rake. You might make the argument that the eidolon specific rake doesn't have this text, but none of their descriptions are thoroughly exhaustive.
Ah! I was looking for clarification on that. The Eidolon text reads:
"An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target."
Which I thought meant that: claw -> free check -> now grappling -> rake attacks
It's broken because it's not even close to legal.
I'm assuming you're talking about something other than what was just said multiple times above you, otherwise that's not constructive at all.
It's broken because it's not even close to legal.
How are you getting 8 Rakes?
Normally an Eidolon will have 2 rake attacks, one for each of its hind feet.You would also need extra limbs if you are taking claws twice.
The Rake text reads: "An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target."
Assuming rakes worked immediately (which I now know they don't) they would work each time the Eidolon grappled.
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The Quadruped base form has two legs evolutions from the start:
Quadruped
Starting Statistics
Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Free Evolutions
bite, limbs (legs) (2).
But you are still only getting 2 Rake attacks with your Grapple, not 8, unless your Eidolon has 8 hind legs.
And take rake 4 times.
Some issues (I think)
Eidolon rake explicitly mentions 2 rake attacks when succeeding on a grapple check. By showing 8 rakes, are you implying you're clawing and grabbing the target 4 times? I believe you can only be in a grapple with a single target once.
Ride by attack says you can keep traveling in a straight line in the direction of the charge. If you swoop down from any significant height your straight line will be into the ground. This means you will have the not ride by them, or charge from essentially ground altitude.
This part is confusing. The "straight line" meaning two dimensionally or three dimensionally? RAI isn't clear. It wouldn't make much sense for my Eidolon to be unable to take off the ground after the charge for one space, for example.
The Charge action is restricted to a straight line because, logically, you're running full speed from point A to point B so you can't go right/left. But why is up/down a restriction? As a GM I would rule against "swooping" at high angles, but going down one space during and back up another at the end of the charge seems reasonable as the forward momentum of the charge isn't affected.
But you are still only getting 2 Rake attacks with your Grapple, not 8, unless your Eidolon has 8 hind legs.And take rake 4 times.
You can only take Rake once for each pair of back legs. You would have to take "Limbs" three extra times to have 8 back limbs to take Rake 4 times.
Nowhere does it stake that the Rake attacks require the legs evolution. It does for the other evolutions though. Its only requirement is the Quadruped base form.
An eidolon has a pair of sharp hooves at the end of its limbs, giving it two hoof attacks. These attacks are secondary attacks. The hooves deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws evolution from its base form with these hoof attacks (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of limbs evolutions.
An eidolon possesses a long, barbed stinger at the end of its tail, granting it a sting attack. This attack is a primary attack. The sting deals 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must possess the tail evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the tail evolution.
An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
Compared to Rake:
An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward the eidolon’s maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.
It also says "2 rake attacks", not 8. The Universal Monster rules specify that you cannot take the rake on the same turn as you start the Grapple. You can use Rake as part of Pounce though.
It says you must be Quadruped to take rake, and quadruped gives you the hind legs, which are used for the rake.
Yeah, that does make sense. Legs being assumed, same with Bite assuming you have a head.
You say I can use Rake during the pounce? How so? I assumed it required a grapple check first, which (as the poster linked above) must be initiated after the turn the grapple begins.
Has anyone ever built a legal eidolon on these boards?
Has anyone ever built a legal eidolon on these boards?
I'm just focused on optimizing so I push every loophole I perceive, then take it to the boards for the sole purpose of having you and everyone else rip it apart intentionally so I don't go into the game and ruin everyone's fun. And yes, this build was perfectly legal before I added Rake.
It seemed super cheesy to me. Two things I learned which weren't explicitly stated, which were why this build was cheesy:
1.) Rake can only be used the turn after grappling is initiated, not the moment it is initiated.
2.) Rake uses the legs as is assumed you have from the Quadruped base form.
Can't you use your Pounce from fly-charging? Pounce allows you to use all of the attacks at once, including the Rakes, without having to Grapple.
Ah, I see. Then this build will still be strong, just not ridiculous.
Pounce: 1 Bite, 2 Claws, 2 Rend
1d8 + 9d6 + 75
Average-111
Next Round Grappling: 2 Bites, 4 Rends (two grapple checks)
2d8 + 9d6 + 54
Average-94.5
That's more what I had in mind...
it wasn't actually legal before adding rake... because you only took rake once, that didn't actually make the build illegal- you just didn't understand how your power worked; the thing that made it illegal was making claw attacks and rake attacks with the same limbs (you can only make one kind of attack with a given limb in a given round).
once you use the eidolon correctly its fairly strong, but certainly nowhere near as bad as it could be. there will definitely be times when the rest of the party feels overshadowed but thats what happens when you play the most broken class in the game and put even a little effort into optimizing.
it wasn't actually legal before adding rake... because you only took rake once, that didn't actually make the build illegal- you just didn't understand how your power worked; the thing that made it illegal was making claw attacks and rake attacks with the same limbs (you can only make one kind of attack with a given limb in a given round).
once you use the eidolon correctly its fairly strong, but certainly nowhere near as bad as it could be. there will definitely be times when the rest of the party feels overshadowed but thats what happens when you play the most broken class in the game and put even a little effort into optimizing.
So far nobody feels overshadowed as we all have our roles and work together pretty well. Damage wise I was really worried though, as we have a Ninja and Rogue in our group so this build would have made them feel useless.
But one more question (should have posted this in the rules section). At your bolded, does that interfere with this?:
"An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target."
Emphasis "each time" and Greater Grapple.
Rake not Rend?
Ah, and Greater Grapple lets you get two checks in one round.
If you are using Grab to get the Grapple, you will also get Claw attacks.
I'm not sure how that works with the Eidolon. Eidolon Grab apparently, already functions differently than the normal Grab in that the Eidolon's only works on smaller creatures for example.
It makes me uneasy to assume that both work the same when the Eidolon's text either conflicts with the standard rules, or simply doesn't say anything like in this example.
Assuming the grapple checks do deal automatic Claw damage though, that's another 4d6+18 per round. Not bad. I'll assume that they do function the same in this respect.
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Grab (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Grab (Ex)
An eidolon becomes adept at grappling foes, gaining the grab ability. Pick bite, claw, pincers, slam, tail slap, or tentacle attacks. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the eidolon grapples the target. This ability only works on creatures of a size one category smaller than the eidolon or smaller. Eidolons with this evolution receive a +4 bonus on CMB checks made to grapple.
Interesting in figuring out the result of this, because the grab and rake evolutions are strangely worded and are different from the universal monster abilities.
"The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target."
This definitely does imply that you gain the rake attacks every time you successfully grapple a target, making the grab-release valid. "Each time" you successfully grapple a target... I don't see any way to misconstrue that.
On an off note, the eidolon pounce ability says nothing about making rake attacks, so maybe it's intended as a trade off?
Not going to deny that it probably would have been better to use the universal monster ability for all three of these.
Oops. You are correct. The Eidolon does not get Rakes when it Pounces:
I see. So then Grab is the only thing I'm not sure of at this point.
Edit: Wait.
It seems we're to assume that the Eidolon's text supercedes the normal rules for Rake. Meaning, the Claw -> Grapple -> Rake -> Drop -> Claw potentially still works. Loopholes...
What is a "grapple check"? Is the first attempt considered a check? If so, then this should work.
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Eidolon Pounce follows its own rules, Eidolon Rend follows the standard rules, but Eidolon Rake follows its own rules. Fun.
This means it is entirely 50/50 for grab until there is a FAQ. Rake should be easier to figure out.