When you should roll for initiative, doors, and table variation.


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

I've now seen this almost ten times while playing PFS (as a player, not a GM) and figured it's worth starting a thread since it's apparently an unclear thing resulting in a lot of table variation.

A good number of tables I've been at (different GMs) have handled parties who "open doors" by having them roll initiative, but leaving the door closed.

This inevitably results in some people getting a high initiative and having the door still closed, and not even being sure why they are in initiative.

Depending on the player's experience and willingness to metagame, they either go into delay, ready an action, or engage in some roleplay and give up their turn (often acting out "why isn't that darn door open yet?").

Often times, the GM will have the monsters inside who win initiative above the door-opener declare readied actions, even though it's arguable if the monsters within realize whether or not the creature opening the door is a party of adventurers or simply Grokk the half-orc guard giving an update on his hourly patrol.

Ultimately, at least the way I read the first couple paragraphs under "Combat" and "Initiative", initiative isn't supposed to begin until a creature is able to take a hostile action against an opposing creature - and as long as the initial door is closed, you're not in initiative. This means, that the door should be open when initiative begins, and the door opener should at least have the ability to take a free action and shout out what he sees inside (i.e. "Guys! Orcs!!") and we wouldn't have players who are taking their initiative actions without really understanding why they are in initiative.

In my latest game, this happened when the players declared they were opening a door, and a ghost came around to attack the middle of the party. Technically, the ghost would start initiative by wanting to take its action and would get a surprise round as it floats out of the wall. GMs could decide if any perceptive members are able to spot the ghost as it appears from the wall unexpectedly (and act in this surprise round too), and we'd roll initiative, and at the very least players would understand what's going on.

I don't want to be a pedantic rules lawyering type, but a quick scan of these parts of the Core book can really help make initiative and beginning combat a more crisp experience at a lot of tables and axe the "why am I in initiative?" funk.

I figure a thread could help folks discuss the finer points of GMing and when exactly initiative should be rolled. :)


Initiative doesn't have to be limited to combat or imminent combat. The GM could call for an initiative roll any time he feels that timing of actions is important. I'd consider doing it from time to time just as a means of keeping players on their toes and not using the metagame process of rolling initiative to know that a fight is imminent.


Another point to consider, is that if initiative is rolled too early everyone ends up at a similar initiative because of ready/delay. It makes me feel that initiative loose its meaning (know who had quicker reflexes to act first mainly).

There’s also the issue with the surprise round going away.

Also if the GM called for initiative before the door is opened, it means someone else could have gotten the door open before the character was intending on doing so. If someone was trying to do that (a character trying to do something before another), I would probably call for initiative.


In the case of the ghost, and expanding on Bill Dunn's point, if the ghost heard/sensed the party at the door then it would have been exactly necessary to call for initiatives because it knew you were there (true for any situation where the guys on the other side have realized people are about to bust in).

If the creatures on the other side of the door fail the perception check, then I'd call for initiative before the door is pushed open but 'start' the actual surprise round when the door is opened.

For example, if the init is and the rogue is going to open the door...

Fighter
Cleric
Orc shaman
Rogue
Orc warriors
Wizard

I'd ask what the fighter and cleric want to do. If they choose something noisy, such as casting a buff, I'd give the orcs a perception check. Say the Shaman hears it, he gets to act in the surprise round that starts with the Rogue. If everyone is quiet, then the shaman is just as surprised as the warriors. All four players still get to act in the surprise round.

Shadow Lodge

I'm going to thoughtfully disagree with how that example would be run.

We'll come back to the Core rulebook, page 178 in a moment. Let's first think about the situation that MurphysParadox poses.

Say the party is going down a hallway with a dozen doors from room-to-room, which are all mostly empty but behind closed doors. They've popped into 3 or 4 rooms already and the party advances and is opening the fifth door (beyond which is the pack of orcs).

If you call for initiative before the door is open (which I believe is the mistake here), then the fighter and cleric are left in this weird state of "what? why am I in initiative?" and you may very well have the cleric suddenly casting Shield of Faith when he shouldn't. "I'm in initiative, so I'm going to do something useful". He has no idea this fifth room has orcs since the door is closed, and nobody has rolled any Perception checks in the party. This is where the party is metagaming because initiative has been called to be rolled too early.

OK, let's go back to page 178 now and the "How Combat Works" section that I think folks may gloss over.

How Combat Works wrote:

1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.

2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds...

If the door is closed, combat hasn't begun yet. If a GM wants to go around his table and ask how people spent the last six seconds of their time, it's good. Combat really can't begin (and initiative can't be rolled) until actual combat is breaking out.

The GM (assuming a home game when they aren't bound by PFS run-by-the-book tactics) has the discretion to decide when the creatures in the room heard the party and how much time has passed since they first heard the party, but this time is passing outside of combat and initiative. The party may very well listen to the door and hear the orcs grunting instructions to each other within and begin casting their own spells. If this is the case, it's less grey of an area and you could conceivably call for initiative (at least the fighter and cleric realize they are legitimately in combat now). However, I think you're still better off defining what the conditions are that will technically begin combat. If the orcs have decided they will enter combat when the door opens, then you don't roll for initiative until the door has finished opening. Thus, there's no readied actions and folks don't begin acting until the door has swung open.

If the orcs have decided, "we're going to spend 12 seconds preparing and then open the door ourselves", the GM decides what they accomplish in the 12 seconds that pass since they first heard the party in the hall. The party may or may not have the same amount of time before the door opens - i.e. the GM may decide they have only 6 seconds since they heard the orcs grunting, and thus everyone in the party gets 6 seconds to do what they want to prepare outside of initiative.

I suspect it's the grey area here that has led to some GMs calling for initiative outside of combat in order to handle getting tables to move sequentially through an area that makes this funky for some players who are end up saying "uh, I do nothing since I don't think there's a combat"... but by virtue of being in initiative (at least, by RAW), they are in a combat (since you can't be in initiative without being in a combat).

Getting the "door opening" situation down in a crisp manner really helps the game, since it lets things like flat-footedness (and ACs and abilities revolving around it) as well as initiative bonuses mean more to those players (and monsters) that have them.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Initiative doesn't have to be limited to combat or imminent combat. The GM could call for an initiative roll any time he feels that timing of actions is important. I'd consider doing it from time to time just as a means of keeping players on their toes and not using the metagame process of rolling initiative to know that a fight is imminent.

If a DM uses initiative outside of the combat rules, this should be stated up front to all players before any such roll is made. Initiative is a combat mechanic, using it for anything else without informing the players beforehand is just purposefully misleading. I've seen this used as an excuse to cause an alignment shift for a Paladin, and it was an uncalled for intentional baiting of that particular character. If characters are unaware of why they are in combat, that is called a surprise round. When initiative is called for, that means combat, per the rules. Doing otherwise is definite house rule territory.

Also, characters knowing they are in combat is not meta-gaming, it's WHY initiative is being called for.

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