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26 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Ok so here is my issue. I'm helping my gf to make a draconic humanoid Antipallie who focuses on sword and natural attacks. The one thing im struggling with is the Slapping Tail option from Advanced Race Guide since we are creating a custom race for her.
Creating New Races
Slapping Tail (3 RP)
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race have a tail they can use to make attacks of opportunity with a reach of 5 feet. The tail is a natural attack that deals 1d6 points of damage plus the user's Strength modifier if Small, 1d8 points of damage plus the user's Strength modifier if Medium, or 1d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times the user's Strength modifier if Large.
Special: If a Large creature has the reach trait, its tail also gains reach.
So from the description this sounds like a natural attack that can ONLY be used for AOOs and also only has the normal reach of 5ft like all weapons unless your size increases which increases your natural reach with ALL weapons.
I cannot figure out why this ability is written so strangely. Why even mention that it has a 5ft reach when ALL attacks have a 5ft reach unless you are larger then medium or using a reach weapon. Or is it that it becomes the equivalent of a reach weapon when you are Large.
Also why have a natural attack that can ONLY be used for AOOS that costs 3 rp when you can get other natural attacks for only 1? This makes no sense at all. It costs 3 times as much but can't make normal attacks, only AOOs?
I FAQ'd it because it seems really odd to have a natural attack that only works on attacks of opportunity.
To be honest I had read the gains reach part as meaning that the tail would reach further than just a normal upgrade to large would grant, though that was just my initial impression, I don't really have anything to back it up.
FAQ'd.
This is just weird.
I've always kind of wondered about this too, it seems so oddly worded.
@sah ok so im not the only one who read it that way. Otherwise other then the increased damage what the heck is the point of this upgrade? Im glad others felt that this needed an FAQ. Hopefully paizo will get to it sooner rather then later cuz this campaign is starting in a few weeks.
@I Hate Nickelback, yeah I agree. Weird.
@N.Jolly, well maybe if we can keep getting people to FAQ this then we can get an official answer on this rather strange racial ability.
FAQ'ed.
This really needs a rewrite.
What is happening with the size increase?
Small - 1d6 + str bonus
Medium - 1d8 + str bonus (makes sense)
Large - 1d10 + 1½*str bonus (When did str multiplier have anything to do with size???)
Yeah I thought that was odd as well. I mean true dragons get 1.5 times str on tail slap but that's the only correlation I could draw. As you said, this needs a rewrite or a heavy faq at least to make any sense.
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I feel like the only way the logistics of this ability make any sense is if when you reach large size your tail becomes a Reach Weapon, IOW you would have 10 ft natural reach, and your tail, as a reach weapon, would actually strike at the 15-20 ft range as if it were a reach weapon. Then the fact that it only works for AOOS sounds reasonable for 3 points because although you dont get it as a regular natural attack on your full round attack action, you do threaten a larger area, albeit with this one weapon with a larger then normal damage bonus. If that's what the developers meant by this then this ability makes sense but no matter what as it is right now its simply not clear enough to tell how the heck its supposed to work other then conjecture.
On a rather odd note I confirmed that Tail Slap on True Dragons does do 1.5 times damage and they only get it at large size. Also if you look at the range on Tail sweep its 30 ft, which when you remove the 20 ft natural reach leaves 10ft which is what a reach weapon would be with no natural reach.
That last point is likely a totally and completely random fluke but who knows at 6am lol.
I think the reach thing has to do with a race that would have natural reach but still be medium or small sized....something sorta like a choker where they were small sized but had 10' reach with their arms. If you slapped a tail on the choker it would have reach with it's tail like it's hands....the rest of that stuff? I don't have a clue and will also hit FAQ.
Yeah that's possible. Idk. Thanks for the faq though. The more we get the faster we get an answer to this. *Fingers crossed*. Hey out of curiosity has anybody out there ever postulated a question up for FAQ and had it answered? Im just curious as to what the odds are of getting an official answer on this or how many faq hits it took to get the attention of someone at Paizo. Hell I'd settle for just getting the opinion of an official let alone an official faq answer.
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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You know what else for that matter, if we do manage to get some official clarification on Slapping Tail, id really like to get some clarification on Tripping Tail as well.
Tripping Tail
Tripping Tail (3 RP)
Prerequisites: Slapping tail trait.
Benefit: When a member of this race hits with its slapping tail, it can make a trip attack as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
So if Slapping Tail is only used for AOOs and Tripping Tail only applies on those attacks then does this ability mean that any time you get an AOO on an enemy you make your normal attack, dealing damage according to size listed in Slapping Tail description, and then as a free action, they get a Trip attempt against the enemy as well?
You know what we really need to get this thread some attention and more faq clicks, a good ol fashioned heated debate. The problem of course is nobody can seem to make enough sense out of this ability to mount a solid argument, because if we could then we could go back and forth about RAW vs RAI, whether its underpowered or broken and end up with a thread that's 50 pages long lol. That'd get some attention and maybe an official's interpretation of this.
Emparawr wrote: You know what we really need to get this thread some attention and more faq clicks, a good ol fashioned heated debate. The problem of course is nobody can seem to make enough sense out of this ability to mount a solid argument, because if we could then we could go back and forth about RAW vs RAI, whether its underpowered or broken and end up with a thread that's 50 pages long lol. That'd get some attention and maybe an official's interpretation of this. I agree....it's a very oddly worded ability that needs some clarification.
Yeah Im really hoping for clarification on this but If I can manage to get a ruling from an official or even just an opinion from one, which would be good enough for me, ill just have to go with the ol asking the GM. I wonder if Paizo might do another one of those Ask a Dev a question live sessions. Anybody know anything about that out of curiosity?
GUIDELINES, people, not hard, steadfast rules! The race builder in the ARG is intended for use by GMs, the people who go through all the trouble to make the games. These are guidelines for those GMs, not specific rules they have to follow. Just like everything else in Pathfinder (including everything in the Core Rulebook).
That being said, I would simply ignore the fact that it says (only) that you can make an attack of opportunity with the tail and just make it into a standard natural attack. Now, if you have been given the option by your GM to create a new race using the race builder, then show this RP option to him/her and explain your desires. The GM should be able to work with you and either handwave the AoO statement or come up with an equitable solution.
CalethosVB wrote: GUIDELINES, people, not hard, steadfast rules! The race builder in the ARG is intended for use by GMs, the people who go through all the trouble to make the games. These are guidelines for those GMs, not specific rules they have to follow. Just like everything else in Pathfinder (including everything in the Core Rulebook).
That being said, I would simply ignore the fact that it says (only) that you can make an attack of opportunity with the tail and just make it into a standard natural attack. Now, if you have been given the option by your GM to create a new race using the race builder, then show this RP option to him/her and explain your desires. The GM should be able to work with you and either handwave the AoO statement or come up with an equitable solution.
Everything is guidelines, and sometimes those guidelines aren't clear. Like with the double musket's range. We asked about that, and got a clarification. Now we're looking for one with this.
Just because it's a guideline doesn't make it exempt from following the same system as everything else. Especially in a new system like race building, it should be made clear how things interact, especially if they seem to eschew normal established mechanics.
I agree with N. Jolly. The whole game is a bunch of guidelines realistically. It's not a hard coded video game or something. Its a pen and paper RPG where if your GM you can change whatever he heck you want. What im looking for here is an interpretation from someone at Paizo on how this was intended to work because from the description it is far from clear. Our GM for this char has actually been crazy busy lately so we haven't been able to talk to him about this one, but when we do I'd really like to be able to show him something from Paizo about how this ability should be interpreted.
I mean our GM could change this to whatever the heck he wanted to, he's in charge, heck he could ban it completely, but he is a pretty solidly by the RAW kind of guy for he most part who's willing to make exceptions for things in the rules that just don't vibe right with what were doing. I know him well enough to know that he'd want a more official interpretation on this one before he decides. But that being said, if we cant get one in time I'm sure he'll decide on his own.
cool looks like sometime soon the Paizo staff will have a little bit more time for catching up on FAQs and we should be able to get a ruling on this one. So nice to see a company that takes interacting with their customers so seriously :)
Posted this up in the Rules section with some new thoughts before I realized I could flag this to have it moved to the Rules section. Oh well though. its more condensed this way anyways and in the more applicable section now.
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