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I have to ask this here because it is a PFS player/character that is doing this. He has a small air elemental familiar and he uses it to move him around using the air elemental's whirlwind ability. I had him take damage from the elemental when he used it with me but here is what he was doing for specifics.
He would move his speed of 30' and then the air elemental would pick him up in his Whirlwind and move another 100'. He would try and make attacks once the creature put him down.
Would it be wrong to use this as an attack on the players character? And when he got put down he would be prone?? Also according to the description of the Whirlwind he can not see beyond 5 feet either and anything with in 5 feet would have concealment and he would not threaten either right?? Not to mention the familiar could take damage from being attacked as well if I am not mistaken?? Would the character be able to be picked up after he has moved and then move an additional 100' with the actual familiar? AND then after make an attack??
I am asking because the player is known for doing things like this alot. I would rather get an official answer before I have to debate/argue with this player over the rule specifics of this.
Also but he is a ninja/monk and has taken the improved familiar feat... and picked this up as a familiar.. does he NEED to have the ability to get the actual familiar first BEFORE taking this feat?? Or can he just take the feat and get a familiar??
This has happened in a PFS game and while I know it is rule specific I thought that in order to get an official ruling IN PFS about this I should post it here. In my home game I know how I would handle this... but this is not a home game so to speak so I am asking here.
Thanks for the answers in advance folks!! :)
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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*blink*
did he just not read the improved familiar rules???
So many, many, many things wrong with this.
Improved Familiar
Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
Small Elemental requires Arcane Caster level 5
Small elemental can only turn into whirlwind for one round per day
A lot of the other problems with this can probably be fixed by being a ninja / monk, but yeah, not really a viable tactic.
Air elementals are not invisible. It would say so in their powers.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Adam, that's what I thought too, but the whirlwind power says it affects any target the of a size category smaller than the whirlwind, and the whirlwind is 10-20 feet tall (even if the creature creating it is small.) So that should mean that the whirl wind is large to huge.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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By the way, he's wasting his use. If he really wanted to be nasty:
charge 60 feet, carrying air elemental,
attack opponent.
Air elemental whirlwinds, moves him up to 100 feet away.
No attack of opportunity, no ability to counter attack him, full concealment against anyone firing ranged weapons. Next round, lather, rinse, repeat.
of course, he need 5 wizard levels to pull this off, which means melee really isn't where he should be spending his time :)
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Adam, that's what I thought too, but the whirlwind power says it affects any target the of a size category smaller than the whirlwind, and the whirlwind is 10-20 feet tall (even if the creature creating it is small.) So that should mean that the whirl wind is large to huge.
Yea I was wondering that myself in reading the whirlwind rule it says that the whirlwind is actually a 5' at the base by 10' high. So it should be able to theoretically be able to pick up a medium sized creature.
Also I did miss the arcane level requirement and the NEED to be able to acquire a familiar in the first place, in my defense though I was under a time constraint at the time and did not want to argue/debate it :). But I just know if I bann him from doing this with "this" character he will find a way to do it with another one where he DOES have the requirement to do so. So all the other questions would still apply. Please :)
Thanks for the answers already!! :)
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Adam, that's what I thought too, but the whirlwind power says it affects any target the of a size category smaller than the whirlwind, and the whirlwind is 10-20 feet tall (even if the creature creating it is small.) So that should mean that the whirl wind is large to huge.
Hey, you taught me something new.
Although he still can't have a familiar short of quite a few rogue talents.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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He can still only do it one round per day.
Just be glad he's not pit conjuring and then using whirlwind to collect opponents across the battlefield and then dumping them in the pit?
Frankly, at 9th level, a single once a day move action on a really fragile ally probably not break game. Even a move action as awesome as this.
Now another question is:
he has to *fail* a dc 12 reflex save to do this. Can he actually chose to forfeit the save?
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the player is a good friend of mine. I do not want people to think that I am trying to talk bad about him :) (just to clarify) :)
Now. It is one is round per two hit die that they can do the whirlwind. As a small elemental it would be able to do it one time, one round per day right? Hmm that would help alot right there :)
Thanks for pointing that out to me! :)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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*goes and looks*
Huh. According to the universal monster rules, the format should be "times per day, DC, Height"
but the monster listing just has "DC, Height"
So I'm not sure how many times per day it can do it. It can only do it one round per use, but I suppose it is possible that it can do it again every round. (It just drops everyone in it each round.)
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Whirlwind also says that it does not provoke attacks of opportunity either while moving. Would it include what is inside of it as well?
I am thinking that the creatures in the fight seeing a whirlwind move like this and then deposit the person on the ground and said person attack them once it is done.. they might attack the person inside the whirlwind when moving too??
Are you sure that its only one round per day, or one round per use?
It only says it may stay in the Whirlwind form for one round per 2 HD - doesn't say thats per day. Though I guess this is slightly off subject.. but thats how I interpreted it.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It's kind of a non issue unless they have reach, since the whirlwind can just keep him in the upper reaches.
Okay, I am starting to hate whoever wrote the familiar rules;
I read this:
It retains the appearance, Hit Dice,
base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of
the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast
for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
and missed this, tucked in under the table.
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of
Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s
normal HD total, whichever is higher
I'll note that it also gets to use it's masters BAB, Base save, etc. So pretty much none of what it says in that first paragraph is true.
So in that case, it should be whirlwind
Duration: 1/2 master's HD
DC: 11 + 1/2 master's HD
Max Height: 10-20 ft high.
Nevermind. Ignore everything I said in my first posts. He still needs a class feature that grants him a familiar and an arcane caster level of 5 to do this.
Excuse me while I go pound my head against a wall.
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One thing to note is if you are seeing text about the size creature you can pick up it is from the Bestiary 1 and is out of date. Bestiary 2 and 3 updated the whirlwind rules to being able to pick up creatures based on the height of the whirlwind and not on size category. In order to be picked up he fails to ref saves (voluntary??) and takes damage. The air elemental can drop him as a free action.
Whirlwind does not have a daily limit just a limit on how long one lasts. You can effectively whirlwind 100% of the time just losing a standard action every turn you need to start one.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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FLite, you were right the first time...
Its hit points are half the PC's hit points, and it uses the better of either its own or the PC's base saves, with its own ability scores. Its hit dice do not increase as the master levels up. According to the Core Rulebook, a familiar "retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats" it had as a normal creature. If there's an effect that uses HD to determine its effectiveness (like sleep or blasphemy, you would use either the familiar's actual hit dice or the PC's (whichever is better) to determine the spell's effect on the familiar. But the familiar's hit dice remain the same.
Its abilities do not count as an "effect related to number of hit dice". I thought they had FAQ'd this already...
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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And EH says you're treated as having sorc levels equal to char level -2. Also depending on race, they could have an arcane spell casting level because of spell-like-abilities. They've already FAQd that it would allow for prereqs as if you could cast the spell, and those are usually at char level as well.
EDIT: I don't really think this is about whether the possibility of a ninja/monk having an improved familiar but whether the tactics are legal.
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Hey guys! The picking up and carrying someone rules in Pathfinder are a bit odd. In theory, it is possible to daisy-chain a halfling across Golarion in 6 seconds, for instance, if you have a chain of evenly-spaced commoners who each move him to the next commoner and hand him over.
I have a few players who always try to use carrying to get extra movement or free full attacks, so here are my table rules for carrying, since the core rules don't state anything either way:
If you are being carried by another creature, object, floating disk, etc, it counts as being mounted for the purposes of what actions you can take. This means that if you were carried that round, you cannot make a full attack with a melee weapon (ranged take penalties).
As to the whirlwind's size category: the ability gives you the volume in order to determine the maximum number of creatures that can be held by the whirlwind, but it's totally silent on whether changing into a whirlwind changes size category. I have always ruled that you keep your size category unless the ability specifically tells you which size category you gain, so the small can only pick up tiny creatures. Now, if you use a 4th-level slot and summon a medium (or enlarge your small elemental and you're a halfling), then you're in business.
Be careful, as the poor thing is likely to be killed fairly quickly when employing this tactic, as it's AC isn't great, and it's making itself a target.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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FLite, you were right the first time...
Its abilities do not count as an "effect related to number of hit dice". I thought they had FAQ'd this already...
Nope, they have said they will faq it for the SHivareeshee(sp?) cat that as a familiar the HD only effect the HPs healed, not the number of times it can heal, because having both was unbalancing, but otherwise, it is still an effect related to HD (Unless this has changed.)
Oh, and I have more bad news. They didn't revise whirlwind to depend on the whirlwinds height in bestiary 3. They simply removed entirely the size restriction. It can now pick up anything and everything that will fit in it's volumn.
Sorry Deanoth.
As far as I can tell, the only thing left is that you can rule that when he is ejected from the whirlwind he is dropped from 15 feet up in the whirlwind, (plus however high up the whirlwind is of course.) and if he takes any lethal damage from the fall, he goes prone. Landing prone in front of his target will cure him of that trick really fast. At least until he finds boots of the cat.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Speaking of whirlwind, what does it do on the defensive side?
You transform yourself into a whirlwind. Ok.
Your base is only 5', no matter how big you get. Ok.
If you go through someone's square, you smack them, and suck them up. They can't move except to try and get out. Does that mean can't take a move action? Or does it mean can't move (no physical attacking)? It goes on to say that those inside have a penalty to the attack rolls, so I assume it means "can not take a move action" or "can not change their location"; not "can not physically move".
Then there's those outside. It makes it hard to see, but let's assume you make your miss chances. While it describes a swirling cloud of debris, it does not say anything about cover, or DR, or improved AC. It doesn't say anything along the lines of wind wall deflecting arrows. So if you take a swing or a shot at this swirling mass of air, it still hits just the same as if it was the base creature just standing around on a clear day?
RAW that's what I'm seeing, but it sure doesn't sound right.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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As to the whirlwind's size category: the ability gives you the volume in order to determine the maximum number of creatures that can be held by the whirlwind, but it's totally silent on whether changing into a whirlwind changes size category. I have always ruled that you keep your size category unless the ability specifically tells you which size category you gain, so the small can only pick up tiny creatures. Now, if you use a 4th-level slot and summon a medium (or enlarge your small elemental and you're a halfling), then you're in business.
So, I have actually found 3 different rules in three different products.
Bestiary 1:
Creature smaller than the size category of the whirlwind
Master of Storms Prestige Class:
Says it uses the rules for whirlwind.
Says the base 20' whirlwind can pick up a small creature. (makes no mention of this depending on the size of the character taking the class)
Bestiary 3:
No mention of creature size other than that the whirlwind can't carry more than will fit in it's volumn.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Speaking of whirlwind, what does it do on the defensive side?
You transform yourself into a whirlwind. Ok.
Your base is only 5', no matter how big you get. Ok.
If you go through someone's square, you smack them, and suck them up. They can't move except to try and get out. Does that mean can't take a move action? Or does it mean can't move (no physical attacking)? It goes on to say that those inside have a penalty to the attack rolls, so I assume it means "can not take a move action" or "can not change their location"; not "can not physically move".
they cannot move except to get out but can take any other action. Yes, I read that as "The cannot take a movement action except attempting to escape, and escaping is a move equivelent action."
Then there's those outside. It makes it hard to see, but let's assume you make your miss chances. While it describes a swirling cloud of debris, it does not say anything about cover, or DR, or improved AC. It doesn't say anything along the lines of wind wall deflecting arrows. So if you take a swing or a shot at this swirling mass of air, it still hits just the same as if it was the base creature just standing around on a clear day?
RAW that's what I'm seeing, but it sure doesn't sound right.
I would treat it that while you have a penalty due to the whirling debris, etc, you have an equal bonus due to the fact that the target can't really dodge and is traveling around the whirlwind at a relatively predictable speed :)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I'm going with the PRD for this, trusting it to be the most up-to-date, and it agrees with the first option. I see the weirdness with the others though.
except that the PRD is notoriously not up to date or for that matter even accurate. It never gets updated with errata as far as I can tell.
For example, it still has this listing
Alchemist's lab 200 gp 40 lbs.
Alchemy crafting kit 25 gp 50 lbs.
Alchemist's kit 40 gp 24 lbs.
Note that the crafting kit is the scaled down *portable* version of the Alchemist Lab (without the +2 skill bonus.) The Alchemist Kit is the standard set of starting gear for an alchemist and includes the Alchemy Crafting Kit. (it was typoed in the UE when they changed its name from alchemists kit to avoid confusing it with the alchemist starting gear collection. You can find it under it's original name in the CRB at it's original weight. )
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If you are going with the PRD for rules than you are not getting the most up to date rules as per how the rules are registered. In the case of rules conflicts the most recent book is considered RAW not what is on the PRD.
Since both Bestiary 2 & 3 are past Bestiary 1 and the information on whirlwind was updated there using either the Bestiary 1 or PRD is fine for house rules but isn't RAW or what is to be used in society play.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I use prd, d20pfsrd, nethys, then I tag the FAQ, search the forum, hit the faq thread on d20pfsrd. Then I go on the forums and ask because I'm usually still missing a developer post somewhere. :)
I'm working on a tool to do the first 3 steps for me, but It has to get fit in between everything else.