I think a more generic approach is in order for the warder, since it seems the entire internet but me hates codes of conduct. I personally think they're neat, but apparently I am a very small minority.
I will be re-conceptualizing the class over the course of the week. Suggestions for names for Iron Tortoise since I have to rename it and what to rename the class to are appreciated.
-X
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Iron Tortoise is going away? Sad, I liked it.
I still think that running the Codes similarly to Cavalier Orders would have been a good idea, giving a modular set of abilities that sits on top of the base class. Of course, the base class is pretty heavily loaded up on abilities to make that easily executable....
Question here; Adaptive Tactics and the bonus feats are a fairly cool idea, but with a couple little holes I was wondering about. I'm feeling like Adaptive Tactics should have
a) some kind of uses per day limit
and
b) a note that you can ignore pre-reqs for the newly acquired feats while using it
Otherwise, this ability is seriously clunky. I'm not looking forward to a player sitting there re-mapping a feat tree every time he decides he wants to use this ability to try something new, and then having to review his character sheet to make sure all of his other feats still work and that he didn't trade out a feat that was qualifying him for something else. Especially since all of this will be happening during combat.
Maybe even just change the ability so that as a full round action you can gain use of one of the listed feats for a number of rounds equal to your INT mod. Somethings got to happen here, this ability is just too complicated to be easily accessible during play.
**EDIT** In retrospect, that wasn't really a question. It was more of a statement that came about from the original question in my head of "Should feats gained with Adaptive Tactics ignore pre-reqs?"
I think a more generic approach is in order for the warder, since it seems the entire internet but me hates codes of conduct. I personally think they're neat, but apparently I am a very small minority.
I'm with you at least.
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Found something else:
Armiger's Mark states "...The target thus marked remains marked for a number of rounds equal to the warder's Intelligence modifier on a failed Will save"
but there does not appear to be any mechanic for when they should make a save, or any formula for what the save DC should be. This would extend to the 9th level improvement as well.
Also, the class table indicates an ability called "Aegis" which I assume refers to the ability "Warder's Defense".
And I just wanted to verify that when you refer to "a full round defensive action" you're referring to the Total Defense action, not some new defensive action specific to the Warder.
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The Warder's 4th level ability is referred to as Tactician Acumen in the class table and Tactical Acumen down in the actual description of the ability.
And on that note, this would be a really good ability to trade out with Archer Lord of the White Steppes. An ability that allows you to trade out DEX for INT for your REF saves is kind of wasted on a ranged archetype. If they were to drop Tactical Acumen, it might open up room for something cool instead. I, personally, think it would be pretty cool to give them back Adaptive Tactics so they've got some switch hitting capability, but that's just my opinion.
Also on the subject of the Archer Lord: Master Craftsman is a very awkwardly done ability. As written, you gain a feat that you can use to qualify for another feat (Craft Magic Arms and Armor) but once you've taken that feat you can only use it to create the items specified by the bonus feat you got via the class ability.....
I feel like you could simplify this by changing the ability to something like: "Bowcrafter- You can craft magic Bows and arrows as though using the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. For the purposes of this ability, treat your Warder level as your caster level."
That'd be way more simple and wouldn't involve giving you a class ability that requires you to take another feat to get any benefit from.
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The progression for the Aegis ability listed in the class table is also different from the Warder's Defense progression (I'm still assuming those are supposed to be the same thing).
Aegis says it should increase at 7, 12, and 17; Warder's Defense increases at 5, 12, and 17. Which is correct, 5 or 7?
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I like the changes to Empyreal Guardians but restricting their shield choice down to bucklers is rough. I was really hoping to be able to make someone the TWFs with a shield and Empyreal Guardians are the ones to do it with.
I think they should get light shields and maybe take the bonus out of another ability. Empyreal Defense could be limited to half intelligence or 1 point per two levels of Warder. Or something. But damn if being limited to bucklers doesn't hurt my heart.
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So, I think I basically hate the Sect Archetypes.
The shield is a huge part of being a warder. And only the Errant and the Dragoons still get to use any shield except for bucklers. That's less than half. A Warder just stops feeling like a Warder without a shield. That's ok once. Go off type a bit with the Scarlet Sentinel. But the rest need to incentivize shield use.
The White Steppe Sect probably doesn't even belong here. It should be a Warlord archetype.
The Empyreal Guardian is really neat but should be focused on two weapon fighting with a weapon and a shield. Right now it feels like a Stalker knockoff instead of an archetype of the Warder.
Like I said, the Scarlet Sentinel is ok. It's alright to go off type once. But a Warder without a shield is like a fighter that doesn't hit anything with a weapon. Nobody made a Diplomat archetype for the Fighter for a reason.
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I know there has been a lot of flak over the codes, while I am pretty happy with them and how they balance the class. I like classes that bring about role-playing opportunities because I quite frankly hate the party of Murder-Hobo's.
I just want to clarify though about the Archer of the White Steppes, can they use bows they didn't craft themselves? I am just wondering how that restriction applies, is it just arrows they have to craft or is it bows and arrows?
If it does restrict the Warder to Bows and Arrows that he crafted himself I am a little bummed by that because it means as a GM I can no longer give out bows as loot because they'll just end up getting sold.
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So, I think I basically hate the Sect Archetypes.
The shield is a huge part of being a warder. And only the Errant and the Dragoons still get to use any shield except for bucklers. That's less than half. A Warder just stops feeling like a Warder without a shield. That's ok once. Go off type a bit with the Scarlet Sentinel. But the rest need to incentivize shield use.
The White Steppe Sect probably doesn't even belong here. It should be a Warlord archetype.
The Empyreal Guardian is really neat but should be focused on two weapon fighting with a weapon and a shield. Right now it feels like a Stalker knockoff instead of an archetype of the Warder.
Like I said, the Scarlet Sentinel is ok. It's alright to go off type once. But a Warder without a shield is like a fighter that doesn't hit anything with a weapon. Nobody made a Diplomat archetype for the Fighter for a reason.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down Yuengling, I like the White Steppes archetype. In fact, I actually built one to play in our game tomorrow. Of course, I secretly believe that there should be an archer variant of every single class in existence, so my opinion may be stilted, but....
White Steppes has a lot of potential, plus I like the idea of an archer who can use his Aegis or Warder defense or whatever to "step in front" of the caster and shield him from the hit.
To be honest, I like pretty much everything about the Warder, I just feel like the actual mechanics of the class need some seriour polish and addressing. Some of the abilities (like Adaptive Tactics) are nearly unplayable as written, and others are a good premise but poorly executed (like the White Steppe's Master Craftsman ability) but the idea and flavor behind everything is pretty spot-on.
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You don't think White Steppes fits better on the Warlord side? Even so it should have something that incentivizes using a buckler at least.
The Warder is supposed to be a shield guy. Why are we watering that down immediately with 3/5 archetypes not able to use any shield larger than a buckler.
And I don't know if you've ever seen a buckler (the kind in Pathfinder) but they're glorified vambraces. That doesn't scream Warder at me.
Fun fact: Traditionally, bucklers were actually held in the hand and could be used to sort of punch a blade aside or even bind a blade with the help of the sword in the other hand.
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You don't think White Steppes fits better on the Warlord side? Even so it should have something that incentivizes using a buckler at least.
The Warder is supposed to be a shield guy. Why are we watering that down immediately with 3/5 archetypes not able to use any shield larger than a buckler.
And I don't know if you've ever seen a buckler (the kind in Pathfinder) but they're glorified vambraces. That doesn't scream Warder at me.
Fun fact: Traditionally, bucklers were actually held in the hand and could be used to sort of punch a blade aside or even bind a blade with the help of the sword in the other hand.
I did think it was a little weird that every single archetype gave up the class feature that gives them Shield Bash... And few of them getting shields anyways.
I wouldn't mind White Steppes having some cool feature to either remove the penalty and keep the AC bonus while wearing a buckler and firing a bow though. The White Steppes guys are supposed to be archers with a strict code, and that definitely fits better under the Warder than the Warlord. I will admit that I do think that if the Archetype was tweaked a bit it could be made to fit the idea a little better. I'd like the idea of all Warder being talented in at least two combat skills, making them something of a dedicated switch hitter, but that would also require giving Adaptive Tactics to all of the Archetypes and completely retooling the ability (which it needs). All that said, I'm a big fan of having a ranged bulwark type character in the game, and I think that White Steppes is definitely in the right place with the right class, there just needs to be a little more work done to up the synergies between ranged combat and the base class.|
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Chris, I know you're watching the threads man, how are you holding up? What are you thinking? I know we're lambasting your class pretty hard here (and that it's happening on other forums as well). Just keep in mind, I at least, and pretty much all the regulars here, do like the class and most (if not all) of its archetypes. The mechanics just aren't quite there yet.
I totally love the concept. It definitely needs a few tweaks, but I haven't seen a defensive class like this before, Which excites me.
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Quick summary of the first Warder arena at level 5. Iron Tortoise and Broken Blade where the disciplines of choice. He used power attack and pugilist stance to prop up his damage which was nice. He missed with Tortoise Trip every time he used it. I think it might be cursed. AC 25 was fun.
The Gutslug was never able to hit the Warder and he punched it into the ground.
The Buccaneers only ever hit once. They were ashamed.
I swapped out the Kijimuna who I found uninteresting and rolled Huecuvas. They didn't do any better and died to a flurry strike immediately.
The Forest Guardian is the luckiest NPC ever. He took out the Magus and he did it again here. 20's. 20's everywhere. It should be noted that even if he weren't power attacking, the Guardian had only a 30% chance to hit. He just kept hitting. It was ridiculous. Un-possible. But it happened.
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So between this forum and another it doesn't seem like anyone else is particularly concerned about the sects.
But does anyone have any compelling reason why the Empyreal Guardian shouldn't get light shields?
I can't see a good reason why they wouldn't get light shields. I am not a huge fan of it or at least I don't see myself playing it much but I can at least see that they should have light shields. Your arguments about the buckler are valid, the buckler is a wizard/gunslinger/bard/etc item not a front line warrior.
The only reason I gave Empyreans bucklers at all is because someone can still wield a weapon in a hand using a buckler and having something that can be enchanted to get a good shield bonus. I didn't intend for them to use a shield at all. Two weapons and double weapons mostly, or a single larger weapon if the situation calls for it. They're supposed to be suitable in places where full arms and armor are not always appreciated and not be hindered as such.
I will be reformating the White Steppe archers into a Warlord archetype, I think. But the Empyreans fit as Warder archetypes. I'll just need to make some adjustments and such to the archetype.
Chris, I know you're watching the threads man, how are you holding up? What are you thinking? I know we're lambasting your class pretty hard here (and that it's happening on other forums as well). Just keep in mind, I at least, and pretty much all the regulars here, do like the class and most (if not all) of its archetypes. The mechanics just aren't quite there yet.
I am holding up alright, I don't take offense to people critiquing rules or mechanics, grammar, etc. That's no big deal. The only thing that caught me off guard was the vehement hatred I experienced first hand by a lot of people spew it over the code of conduct.
-X
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The only reason I gave Empyreans bucklers at all is because someone can still wield a weapon in a hand using a buckler and having something that can be enchanted to get a good shield bonus. I didn't intend for them to use a shield at all. Two weapons and double weapons mostly, or a single larger weapon if the situation calls for it. They're supposed to be suitable in places where full arms and armor are not always appreciated and not be hindered as such.
I will be reformating the White Steppe archers into a Warlord archetype, I think. But the Empyreans fit as Warder archetypes. I'll just need to make some adjustments and such to the archetype.
Chris, I know you're watching the threads man, how are you holding up? What are you thinking? I know we're lambasting your class pretty hard here (and that it's happening on other forums as well). Just keep in mind, I at least, and pretty much all the regulars here, do like the class and most (if not all) of its archetypes. The mechanics just aren't quite there yet.I am holding up alright, I don't take offense to people critiquing rules or mechanics, grammar, etc. That's no big deal. The only thing that caught me off guard was the vehement hatred I experienced first hand by a lot of people spew it over the code of conduct.
-X
Yeah, there's a pretty big population of forum-dwellers who hate Codes and Orders. See any Paladin or Cavalier thread ever. You know though, your code was pretty neatly executed, and it only asked the Warder to do things that any right-minded adventurer should be doing anyway. Some people just feel like if you institute a Code of Conduct or an Order with specific principles, you're telling them how to RP. I personally know that several people like the RP set up and appreciate the inspiration. Different strokes and all that. I personally liked the Code of Conduct and am sad to see it go. I'm also sad to see White Steppes heading over to the Warlord, but I guess there is some argument for that class being a more natural fit for it. I'm going to miss my armored artillery unit that barely got a chance to be though.... You realize, I literally spent like three hours yesterday building my White Steppes Warder right?
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I'm sorry dude!
It just seems to be a more warlord oriented one ya know? I'd love to keep it warder, but if you could give me something in return to explain some ideas to fix it and keep it in line, I'd love to hear it.
Attention as well! Any archetypes you'd like to see for the martial disciples, the more thought out the better, let me know! I've got sect archetypes for the warder (might go Sentinel... I've got the Corsair and Scarlet Prince archetypes for warlord, and one lonely psi-stalker archetype brewing for the stalker. I'd love ideas guys!
Appreciating all of the feedback on Warder, and I intend to compile it into the next update. Just so you all know, the code of conduct is staying. I like it. I think it fits. How it stays is kind of up in the air, but we'll cross that bridge as we go. I've got some ideas and I've been talking to people regarding this so... there is a lot of potential for alternate codes and such. But there is going to be a code.
Tonight I'm working on the Stalker and feedback I have from that as well as feats. Lots of feats. I want to move that to initial BETA soon like the Warlord.
-X
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The problem with Empyreans as written is that they are more like a Stalker archetype. The shield is supposed to be his schtick. To use an analogy, it's like if your Grit Fighter was a Gunslinger archetype instead of a Fighter one. If I'm playing a Warder chances are that I want a shield. Otherwise I'd play one of the other classes.
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I'm sorry dude!
It just seems to be a more warlord oriented one ya know? I'd love to keep it warder, but if you could give me something in return to explain some ideas to fix it and keep it in line, I'd love to hear it.
I gotchya bro. All right, here come my proposed fixes to the Archer Lord of the White Steppes, both to make him a better functioning class in general, and to provide thematic and mechanical reasons he should be a Warder:
Step One "Identifying the Theme": For centuries, the Archer Lords of the White Steppes have upheld an ancient trust, guarding the northern lands from which they hail from monstrous incursions. Standing side by side with the shamans of their tribes, the Archer Lords rained death upon their foes while shielding their magic-using allies from the stones and spells of their enemies. The heroic tales of the Archer Lords have now spread to lands far and wide, causing many to seek to learn or emulate their prowess.
The Archer Lords of the White Steppes are not warleaders, they are stalwart defenders of a land and tradition that encourages ranged combat. Their wards are typically the spellcasters of their tribe or party, and the first and last duty of every Archer Lord is to protect the spellcasters who aid them.
Step two "Necessary Mechanical Changes"
At 4th level, the Archer Lord gains the following ability "Eyes of the Watching Hawk: The Archer Lord is ever alert to threats that might endanger his wards and allies, using his his keen eye and swift signals to alert them to danger. Any ally that can see and hear the Archer Lord when he acts in the Surprise Round gains a +4 competence bonus to their Initiative checks. This ability replaces Tactical Acumen"
Master Craftsman has to go. See my earlier post about a suitable replacement ability "Bowcrafter- You can craft magic Bows and arrows as though using the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. For the purposes of this ability, treat your Warder level as your caster level. This ability replaces Adaptive Tactics."
Preferred Approach -> Alternatively, drop the Crafting ability altogether (since mechanically and thematically this guy probably is used to having a caster around) and have him keep Adaptive Tactics. Then make the following global change to Adaptive Tactics:
"Adaptive Tactics (Ex): At 5th level, the warder learns to adapt his tactics as he goes, being able to quickly adapt to unexpeted situations. As a full round action, the character is able to give himself the use of one of the following feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Diehard, Endurance, Great Cleave, Greater Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Toughness. He does not need to meet the feats prerequisites to utilize it in this manner, nor does this ability allow him to count as having the feat for the purposes of qualifying for other feats or abilities. He retains the use of this feat for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 his level + his INT modifier."
Have the archetype replace Extended Defense with the following ability: "Guardian of the Spirit-talkers:Upon reaching 8th level, the Archer Lord becomes increasingly adept at protecting his wards from harm. Once per day he is capable of extending the use of his defensive counters to react to multiple attacks. Any counter that the Archer Lord possesses that has a duration of instant instead has a duration of 1 round. He may then use this counter against any attack that it could normally be used to repel that targets an allied spellcaster. Every three levels beyond this (11th, 14th, and 17th levels) he may use this ability an additional time per day."
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I think that any Warder archetype should have something going on with a shield or at least, in this case, a buckler.
"With the comforting weight of a buckler on his arm, the Archer Lord strikes with confidence." Now ascribe some kind of bonus to that.
And I'm pretty for real about Empyreals getting a light shield. It ain't a warder unless it rocks a shield.
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I think that any Warder archetype should have something going on with a shield or at least, in this case, a buckler.
"With the comforting weight of a buckler on his arm, the Archer Lord strikes with confidence." Now ascribe some kind of bonus to that.
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Let me ruminate on that a bit and see what I come up with. To be honest, I figured all of the bad guys getting pissed that the Archer Lord won't let them take out the healer or controller and coming for the guy who Marked them would be incentive enough to take the -1 to hit and grab a buckler...
How about making this change to White Steppe Training:
"White Steppe Training (Ex): With the exhaustive training that archer lords undergo, the character adds Perception to his class skills. He may select one ranged weapon to be his favored; when wielding this weapon, he does not suffer a penalty to hit for wearing a buckler and keeps his shield bonus to AC even when using that arm to attack with his chosen weapon. The Archer Lord also gains Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat. This replaces the warder's shield fighter class feature, and augments his class skills known."
That brings your shield (buckler) in to play, giving you an effective boost to hit and AC, and drops a class skill that, lets be honest, while appropriate for an archer isn't the best fit for an Archer Lord whose schtick is filling people full of arrows while shouting "Look at me! If you want to get to the guy raining lightning on you, you'll have to get through me first!"
Also, what do you think about those proposed changes? I got all fired up when Chris challenged me to give him a reason to keep it as a warder archetype.
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FU! What does that spell? Fired up!
It really doesn't.*
With the addition of the buckler I like it. It's a pretty nontraditional role for the ranged guy to want guys to come at him but enthusiasm beats logic any day of the week in my games.
Back to Empyrians for a second, I don't care if you make them proficient. I'll burn a feat for something I want to do. Just don't make their abilities dependent on not using a shield. Please?
*If you've never watched Fired Up! grab some beers and some buddies and do so immediately. You will laugh until you cry blood.
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So to sum up, my proposition for an Archer Lord of the White Steppes that is still a Warder archetype looks like this:
The archer lords of the White Steppes are world renowned as being some of the best archers in the world, and their reputation is well deserved. For centuries, the Archer Lords of the White Steppes have upheld an ancient trust, guarding the northern lands from which they hail from monstrous incursions. Standing side by side with the shamans of their tribes, the Archer Lords rained death upon their foes while shielding their magic-using allies from the stones and spells of their enemies. The heroic tales of the Archer Lords have now spread to lands far and wide, causing many to seek to learn or emulate their prowess. The people of the White Steppes are an untrusting and deeply spiritual lot, but they tend to distrust outsiders, some can be convinced to share
their ways.
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The warder is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and he
is proficient with light and medium armor, and with bucklers. This replaces the warder's standard weapon and armor proficiencies
White Steppe Training (Ex): With the exhaustive training that archer lords undergo, the character adds Perception to his class skills. He may select one ranged weapon to be his favored; when wielding this weapon, he does not suffer a penalty to hit for wearing a buckler and keeps his shield bonus to AC even when using that arm to attack with his chosen weapon. The Archer Lord also gains Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat. This replaces the warder's shield fighter class feature, and augments his class skills known
Disciplines: The White Steppe warder gains access Solar Wind, losing access to Iron Tortoise.
Eyes of the Watching Hawk: The Archer Lord is ever alert to threats that might endanger his wards and allies, using his his keen eye and swift signals to alert them to danger. Any ally that can see and hear the Archer Lord when he acts in the Surprise Round gains a +4 competence bonus to their Initiative checks. This ability replaces Tactical Acumen
Bowcrafter- You can craft magic Bows and arrows as though using the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. For the purposes of this ability, treat your Warder level as your caster level. This ability replaces Adaptive Tactics
or
Drop the Crafting ability altogether (since mechanically and thematically this guy probably is used to having a caster around) and have him keep Adaptive Tactics. Then make the following global change to Adaptive Tactics:
"Adaptive Tactics (Ex): At 5th level, the warder learns to adapt his tactics as he goes, being able to quickly adapt to unexpeted situations. As a full round action, the character is able to give himself the use of one of the following feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Diehard, Endurance, Great Cleave, Greater Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Toughness. He does not need to meet the feats prerequisites to utilize it in this manner, nor does this ability allow him to count as having the feat for the purposes of qualifying for other feats or abilities. He retains the use of this feat for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 his level + his INT modifier."
Guardian of the Spirit-talkers:Upon reaching 8th level, the Archer Lord becomes increasingly adept at protecting his wards from harm. Once per day he is capable of extending the use of his defensive counters to react to multiple attacks. Any counter that the Archer Lord possesses that has a duration of instant instead has a duration of 1 round. He may then use this counter against any attack that it could normally be used to repel that targets an allied spellcaster. Every three levels beyond this (11th, 14th, and 17th levels) he may use this ability an additional time per day. This ability replaces Extended Defense.
Close Combat Archery (Ex): At 10th level, the White Steppe warder no longer provokes attacks of opportunity when firing or reloading his favored weapon while threatened in melee combat. This replaces the clad in steel class feature.
Recover Ammunition (Ex): At 15th level, the skill of creating magical ammunition for his ranged weapons has grown incredibly durable, and he may recover magical ammunition he has used 50% of the time, even if the ammunition successfully hit a target.
Master of Arrows (Ex): At 20th level, the archer lord's skill reaches perfection, his arrows true and deadly. When using a weapon from an associated Solar Wind weapon group, his critical threat range is doubled and critical damage multiplier is increased by one. This replaces deathless protector.
Small but pertinent changes throughout that adjust the total class dynamic to increase its focus on being a defender, but with the unusual dynamic of using your defensive abilities at range.
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***
With the addition of the buckler I like it. It's a pretty nontraditional role for the ranged guy to want guys to come at him but enthusiasm beats logic any day of the week in my games.***
It's not totally without precedent (the Luring Cavalier is another ranged character who taunts the bad guys), but it comes at it from the unusual angle of actually being a defender-type class. You'd be stepping up with your bow busting out shots while yelling "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
I was so intrigued by the ranged defender dynamic, I really don't want to see this archetype go over to the Warlord.
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I didn't mean it wasn't without precedent in the game. I meant in life where it is a horrendously bad idea.
I've started on the level 10 playtests and might squeeze in the 15 tomorrow which might even let me have time to do it again mounted. When I do the big team battle, I'm going to remake all three and maybe try the Empyrean then. That'll also give me a chance to try out Steel Serpent over on the Stalker side.
One thing I noticed already is that Shell Shock is a rather stronger maneuver than Iron Monger's Throw. Prone and dealing normal damage plus 4d6 is WAY better than just dealing 6d6. In many builds shield bashing will be easier than a grapple check with a +4 bonus, too. Iron Monger might deserve a status effect or something. Unless I'm missing something?
Also, how will this interact with the Steel Coils Stance from the Stalker?
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This is going to come up with yet another class having access to Solar Wind. Does the crit range expansion of True Shot Stance stack with Keen/Improved Critical?
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Some thoughts on the shield throwing maneuvers from iron turtle. I feel these maneuvers are really cool, but they encourage weird behavior.
Clearly, they are to be used in place of a melee attack, like when You don't want to get close to target since with a range of 20 ft you could just charge the target. However, doing so disarms you of a good chunk of your AC and makes you incapable of using the entire Iron Turtle discipline. (unless you crit with a 20/x3 weapon)
So those maneuvers encourage you to carry a bunch of shields and to throw your mundane shields, which in turn makes crits less exciting.
You could let the warder catch his shield if he ends his turn adjacent to the target. Gives it a nice captain America vibe. Maybe make it so he does not provoke for moving from that enemy if he hits, but can catch the shield regardless (it functions like a boomerang if he misses.)
First off, Ssalarn I will review your ideas and respond to those in a seperate post.
I didn't mean it wasn't without precedent in the game. I meant in life where it is a horrendously bad idea.
I've started on the level 10 playtests and might squeeze in the 15 tomorrow which might even let me have time to do it again mounted. When I do the big team battle, I'm going to remake all three and maybe try the Empyrean then. That'll also give me a chance to try out Steel Serpent over on the Stalker side.
One thing I noticed already is that Shell Shock is a rather stronger maneuver than Iron Monger's Throw. Prone and dealing normal damage plus 4d6 is WAY better than just dealing 6d6. In many builds shield bashing will be easier than a grapple check with a +4 bonus, too. Iron Monger might deserve a status effect or something. Unless I'm missing something?
Also, how will this interact with the Steel Coils Stance from the Stalker?
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This is going to come up with yet another class having access to Solar Wind. Does the crit range expansion of True Shot Stance stack with Keen/Improved Critical?
As far as playtests go, that's awesome! Just be aware some of those you might need to re-do with some forthcoming alterations, but if you're okay with it, so am I!
I will look at Shell Shock/Iron Monger's Throw and think on that, thank you for finding that. As far as Steel Coils, I think I need to change Iron Monger's throw to say "Make a CMB check" not a "Grapple" check.
Some thoughts on the shield throwing maneuvers from iron turtle. I feel these maneuvers are really cool, but they encourage weird behavior.
Clearly, they are to be used in place of a melee attack, like when You don't want to get close to target since with a range of 20 ft you could just charge the target. However, doing so disarms you of a good chunk of your AC and makes you incapable of using the entire Iron Turtle discipline. (unless you crit with a 20/x3 weapon)
So those maneuvers encourage you to carry a bunch of shields and to throw your mundane shields, which in turn makes crits less exciting.
You could let the warder catch his shield if he ends his turn adjacent to the target. Gives it a nice captain America vibe. Maybe make it so he does not provoke for moving from that enemy if he hits, but can catch the shield regardless (it functions like a boomerang if he misses.)
So how you feel if I used a Style feat that at the base level improved that function to catch it / return it every time? Or do you think it would be too strong to return the shield each time its thrown? I was leaning it would be too strong, but it might not be. Throwing shields exist, so there is a precedent to hucking a shield at people. Thoughts?
-X
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Design Manager
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So how you feel if I used a Style feat that at the base level improved that function to catch it / return it every time? Or do you think it would be too strong to return the shield each time its thrown? I was leaning it would be too strong, but it might not be. Throwing shields exist, so there is a precedent to hucking a shield at people. Thoughts?
-X
Having a shield is a pretty integral part of the class, and shield's aren't like daggers where you can have 40 of them concealed on your body... What about making a stance that gives their shields the Returning property? Then if they want to huck their shield around they swift action switch to that stance, and once they're done the next round they can switch to whatever other stance they want to use.
A Style feat would also be a good way to execute that function. Are you thinking something that requires like a skill check, or how were you planning to execute it so that it scales?
If I did it as a Style feat, I'd probably just let them have it back.
-X
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Design Manager
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If I did it as a Style feat, I'd probably just let them have it back.
-X
AH, that works. Your initial question just had me thinking your were shooting for some kind of scaling effect and I wasn't sure how you would execute that. A Style feat that automatically lets you ricochet your shield would probably be solid. Would you have it work like Returning where the shield is ready for use again at the start of the next round, or are you thinking of this feat immediately returning the shield to him so that he can use it for full attacks and have it available in between turns following a round in which he's thrown it?
AH, that works. Your initial question just had me thinking your were shooting for some kind of scaling effect and I wasn't sure how you would execute that. A Style feat that automatically lets you ricochet your shield would probably be solid. Would you have it work like Returning where the shield is ready for use again at the start of the next round, or are you thinking of this feat immediately returning the shield to him so that he can use it for full attacks and have it available in between turns following a round in which he's thrown it?If I did it as a Style feat, I'd probably just let them have it back.
-X
Well the throws are standard actions, so have it return after the attack was over / end of their turn so they'd get use of it for defense when not on their turn.
-X
I am not a fan of a style feat. It basically makes the throwing maneuvers useless without a feat and feels like a patch. An analogy is if there was a rule that said "wizards lose all spell casting when they deal damage with magic." And then they make a feat that lets you not lose all magic. It becomes a tax for that type of character.
I think you should either raise the level of the throwing maneuvers if you think they are too strong, or force the initiator to spend another kind of action. Maybe its a swift action to catch the shield or something. That means you can't boost the same round. Or maybe you have to move to where it would fall.
I would really like it if it said something like: "... If the initiator hits his target with the thrown shield, the initiator's movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from his target. If the initiator ends his turn where the shield lands, he can catch it as a free action. "
This way you can throw the shield and close the distance "behind it" to avoid AoOs from large creatures.
(I shudder to think of what would happen to capt. America if he met a monk with snatch arrows...)
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Design Manager
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***(I shudder to think of what would happen to capt. America if he met a monk with snatch arrows...)
Hah!
You make a point but it gets increasingly hard to execute when you have all of those "if x, then y..." bits that have to be built into every maneuver. Plus, the Warlord does have multiple disciplines to choose from. You just grab some Broken Blade maneuvers to fight unarmed until you recover your shield if you don't want to pay the feat tax for an auto return. Guys who throw daggers, hammers, axes, etc. still have to worry about recovering their weapons until they can afford Returning, and they never get an option as nice and easy as a feat (that I'm aware of). Presumably, the feat would even work in an antimagic area or after the shield's been hit with a disjunction, which actually makes it a pretty powerful ability. To keep it balanced with other thrown equipment users, there has to be some cost to retrieving your ranged weapon.
The maneuver is not actually ranged as far as I can tell. Its a flat 20ft thats charge distance.
Also, you would presumably not have this as your primary attack mode since there are not that many maneuvers that let you throw your shield.
I think a style feat that just lets you actually *use* these maneuvers is a bad idea. It eats your style since you can only have one to give you a short range attack once per combat.
captain america never needed to pick up his shield. I mean that's at least 1 aoo. And your foe might grab your +5 shield of kick ass.
really, if you think a free bounce is too strong, just raise the level.
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Or just make it like a high level stance that adds your shield the returning property, then make it at like level 15 the stance also grants your shield the ricochet property, that way you can really feel like Captain America and potentially take out a whole line of enemies with one shield throw. Either using the wording from the Ricochet Spell from Ultimate Magic or using the wording from the item Ricochet Hammer from Ultimate Equipment.
Just a suggestion though that might work based on what it sounds like people want.
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I have been out of the loop lastly but finally looked at what I had for the stalker and wanted to add my thoughts. Also, I noticed my copy of the warlord says final alpha but I know it is in beta, has there been a new beta release of it? Also just saw it looks like the warder is up? I go try to get that quickly before I leave the net.
I am confused about Deadly Strikes. I understand that a successful crit is required to activate it but it then says it works on all of the stalkers attacks against that target. Does this mean that after a successful crit activation, you do the the extra damage dice also on non crit hits during the limited duration?
Really dislike 10 level use of unknown maneuvers without even needing to meet the prerequisites. Also dislike how it is only a single ki point while the ninja trick for any unknown trick is 3 points.
Charm monster, two levels below wiz/bard and 3 below sorc! Really?
Phantom reach, compare to lunge.
Precocious step, not even a bonus to acrobatic/tumble checks, just ignore them all together.
Rising Zenith Strike, Ruby Zenith Strike, Descending Sunset Strike all have the same problem, in that they simply multiply the damage without any of the usual restrictions against multiplying precision damage or the extra damage from magical weapon properties. Is this intentional?Those types of damage are never multiplied - not on using a brace weapon against a charge, not on a crit, never.
But it could be spelled out more clearly in the maneuver's description.
Well critical hits says those two don't multiply, but charge and setting weapons don't say they don't multiply, and the entry for precision damage and magic weapon properties don't say anything about never multiplying... Did, did I just find a loophole in the rules? Sweet Eris, I think I did. Sneak attack should double on a charge and flaming spears are just that much more powerful than flaming swords! I feel dirty now.
Intimidating gambit isn't coming back because of Cornugon Strike and the grief it brought me :P
-X
C'mon man, you already solved the Cornugon Smash issue, so please? Demoralizing people, making them realize they made a mistake just by opposing you, thats the stuff a warlord would live for.
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Design Manager
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Well critical hits says those two don't multiply, but charge and setting weapons don't say they don't multiply, and the entry for precision damage and magic weapon properties don't say anything about never multiplying... Did, did I just find a loophole in the rules? Sweet Eris, I think I did. Sneak attack should double on a charge and flaming spears are just that much more powerful than flaming swords! I feel dirty now.Rising Zenith Strike, Ruby Zenith Strike, Descending Sunset Strike all have the same problem, in that they simply multiply the damage without any of the usual restrictions against multiplying precision damage or the extra damage from magical weapon properties. Is this intentional?Those types of damage are never multiplied - not on using a brace weapon against a charge, not on a crit, never.
Bharat
But it could be spelled out more clearly in the maneuver's description.
You didn't. If you look in the PRD or CRB, the general rules for multiplying damage state that you never multiply bonus damage dice. Just search "Multiplying Damage".
You didn't. If you look in the PRD or CRB, the general rules for multiplying damage state that you never multiply bonus damage dice. Just search "Multiplying Damage".Well critical hits says those two don't multiply, but charge and setting weapons don't say they don't multiply, and the entry for precision damage and magic weapon properties don't say anything about never multiplying... Did, did I just find a loophole in the rules? Sweet Eris, I think I did. Sneak attack should double on a charge and flaming spears are just that much more powerful than flaming swords! I feel dirty now.Rising Zenith Strike, Ruby Zenith Strike, Descending Sunset Strike all have the same problem, in that they simply multiply the damage without any of the usual restrictions against multiplying precision damage or the extra damage from magical weapon properties. Is this intentional?Those types of damage are never multiplied - not on using a brace weapon against a charge, not on a crit, never.
Bharat
But it could be spelled out more clearly in the maneuver's description.
Oh, found it.
"Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied."Thank you. I was starting to feel like a munchkin.
C'mon man, you already solved the Cornugon Smash issue, so please? Demoralizing people, making them realize they made a mistake just by opposing you, thats the stuff a warlord would live for.Intimidating gambit isn't coming back because of Cornugon Strike and the grief it brought me :P
-X
I solved it by dropping the Gambit. People are still going to full attack as a full round action using Power Attack and Cornugon Smash to get the gambit off and that's not what it was intended for. It was intended for the "look mean" and that's it. There wasn't a way to fix it without expressly forbidding Cornugon Smash.
The maneuver is not actually ranged as far as I can tell. Its a flat 20ft thats charge distance.
Also, you would presumably not have this as your primary attack mode since there are not that many maneuvers that let you throw your shield.
I think a style feat that just lets you actually *use* these maneuvers is a bad idea. It eats your style since you can only have one to give you a short range attack once per combat.
captain america never needed to pick up his shield. I mean that's at least 1 aoo. And your foe might grab your +5 shield of kick ass.
really, if you think a free bounce is too strong, just raise the level.
Maybe I should just change it to a range increment of 20ft instead of no more/no less 20ft. As far as the Style feat, it would do more than just that, FYI, but I see why you'd say that if it was just that alone.
Chris, are you planning any weapons or armor or magic properties for either in this book?
Side note: I was just looking over stuff and I can't find a single finessable double weapon. Anyone know of one?
Yes, and... sadly no, I can't find a finessable double weapon. Might have to find a way to remedy that.
I have been out of the loop lastly but finally looked at what I had for the stalker and wanted to add my thoughts. Also, I noticed my copy of the warlord says final alpha but I know it is in beta, has there been a new beta release of it? Also just saw it looks like the warder is up? I go try to get that quickly before I leave the net.
I am confused about Deadly Strikes. I understand that a successful crit is required to activate it but it then says it works on all of the stalkers attacks against that target. Does this mean that after a successful crit activation, you do the the extra damage dice also on non crit hits during the limited duration?
Really dislike 10 level use of unknown maneuvers without even needing to meet the prerequisites. Also dislike how it is only a single ki point while the ninja trick for any unknown trick is 3 points.
Charm monster, two levels below wiz/bard and 3 below sorc! Really?
Phantom reach, compare to lunge.
Precocious step, not even a bonus to acrobatic/tumble checks, just ignore them all together.
Re: Deadly Strikes - Yes, a critical hit activates it for Wisdom modifier in rounds on all attacks. You can chain it for 1 extra round per round if you can get off at least 1 crit every round, or spending ki.
Re: 10th level ki ability - I'm sorry you don't like it, but as the class already has a lot of uses for ki, it seemed unnecessary to charge as much as the ninja pays.
As for your other points, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Unless it's sarcasm, and then I must politely thank you for your feedback.
-X